Josh Allen has moved up a few (actually a lot) steps in the PFF QB rankings for the start of the year

[1ManRaid]

Even when he wins MVP, they'll have a hard time swallowing putting him top 5.

 

Remember when he was putting up MVP numbers and I think getting offensive player of the week early in the season and they had him outside the top 10?

[transplantbillsfan]

Who cares?

 

He's still too low.

 

Yes, that top 6 as a whole is almost indisputable, but Allen at 6? Are they taking multiple years? Are they projecting moving forward?

 

I don't think anyone can say it's "accounting for the talent on the team" because both KC and Tampa Bay are uber talented on offense... probably moreso than Buffalo.

[TBBills]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Who cares?

 

He's still too low.

 

Yes, that top 6 as a whole is almost indisputable, but Allen at 6? Are they taking multiple years? Are they projecting moving forward?

 

I don't think anyone can say it's "accounting for the talent on the team" because both KC and Tampa Bay are uber talented on offense... probably moreso than Buffalo.

Gives him something to work for this year. You know it won't make him happy till he is #1 b.c that will probably mean the Bills won the Super Bowl. 

[Beerball]

It just doesn’t matter.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Beerball

[TH3]

16 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

I know .. we all hate PFF and I don't actually click on their site much, but I heard Cowherd or one of those guys discussing PFF's 2021 QB ranking ...Josh moved from near the bottom to start 2020 to .... number 6 going into 2021. When your haters compliment you .. you have arrived.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-all-32-starters-ahead-of-the-2021-nfl-season

 

Lamar was 8, and Baker was 10.

If all QBs were free agents and a draft was organized...Josh would likely be the number 1 or 2 pick

Edited May 19, 2021 by TH3

[PrimeTime101]

If Josh Allen figures out presnap reads this year with his second big jump 2 seasons in a row I predict nothing less then mvp.

 

For now its Mahomes and a role of the dice for the next 4-5 players

[Doc]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Who cares?

 

He's still too low.

 

Yes, that top 6 as a whole is almost indisputable, but Allen at 6? Are they taking multiple years? Are they projecting moving forward?

 

I don't think anyone can say it's "accounting for the talent on the team" because both KC and Tampa Bay are uber talented on offense... probably moreso than Buffalo.

Definitely more talented. 

[Boxcar]

17 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

I know .. we all hate PFF and I don't actually click on their site much, but I heard Cowherd or one of those guys discussing PFF's 2021 QB ranking ...Josh moved from near the bottom to start 2020 to .... number 6 going into 2021. When your haters compliment you .. you have arrived.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-all-32-starters-ahead-of-the-2021-nfl-season

 

Lamar was 8, and Baker was 10.

Damn, Justin Herbert got disrespected. Who on Earth takes Derek Carr or Kirk Cousins instead?

[Billzfan37]

14 hours ago, WideNine said:

Need we remind ourselves that they once rated Josh Allen dead last - 32nd in the league behind the struggling Josh Rosen who had just been sent packing to Miami. 

 

That list is rather humorous in hindsight.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-rankings-nfl-starting-quarterback-rankings-for-2019

 

 

2019 ranking were a joke, they had Drew Brees at #2 and Cam Newton at #16.  What a crock of crap

[Buftex]

18 hours ago, Doc said:

They still suck.  He should be 3rd at least.

I'd say "at least" 4th. Sure, I like him more than the rest, but hard to make arguments against Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers.  

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, TH3 said:

If all QBs were free agents and a draft was organized...Josh would likely be the number 1 or 2 pick

Absolutely, Only Patrick M. would likely be before Josh. And for me anyways, I'm not sure that I take P.M over Josh because I believe Josh will still improve even more and that will be SCARY for rest of the league.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Patrick_Duffy

[Jay_Fixit]

19 hours ago, Gambit said:

Should be top 3. Laughable that Watson is ahead of him.

How is it laughable?

[eball]

4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

If Josh Allen figures out presnap reads this year with his second big jump 2 seasons in a row I predict nothing less then mvp.

 

For now its Mahomes and a role of the dice for the next 4-5 players

I read Jim Kubiak’s analysis of Josh Allen every week last season and don’t recall a single example of Josh “not making a correct pre-snap read.” Now, if you’re truly a student of the game and QB play can explain what you’re talking about I’ll listen, but this sounds to me like somebody just making stuff up. 

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Billzfan37 said:

2019 ranking were a joke, they had Drew Brees at #2 and Cam Newton at #16.  What a crock of crap

 

I know right?

 

This is the case and point that there are statistics and analytics that are always lensed subjectively... catchable pass or did receiver slightly adjust route and/or timing to make it so? 

 

Good receivers make sub par throws (that all QBs make in this league of off-platform throws on extended plays) look better.

 

Not discounting Allen's needed growth areas in 2019 (touch and mechanics for consistency), but taking in what he did that year with the supporting cast he had, PFF's take was hardly objective.

 

They have a penchant like any other football affectionados to go into a publication with bias in place and cherry-pick the stats and analysis that best support the narrative they prefer to put forward.

 

I like their player data collection, but rather view how those numbers trend over time sprinkled with some honest slant of what my eyes are telling me.

 

Many of us could look at the same failed QB play (results-wise) and see progression, regression, no change; Pre-snap reads, where his eyes go - is he going through his progressions, how he moved, avoided the rush, decisions on where to throw - is he looking off defenders or throwing it away, timing, throwing mechanics, etc...

 

Those performance details are pretty subjective and are harder to capture if you are not looking for them to begin with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boxcar]

Damn, Josh is just behind Carson Wentz in turnover worthy plays with 23, and just ahead of Patrick Mahomes with 23.

 

Oh, not sure if you guys saw the receiver rankings, but Diggs was 8th, and Beasley in the 20s, which didn't really match the reasoning they gave (which said, essentially, that he was the best slot receiver in the NFL).

Edited May 19, 2021 by Boxcar

[Bangarang]

4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

If Josh Allen figures out presnap reads this year with his second big jump 2 seasons in a row I predict nothing less then mvp.

 

For now its Mahomes and a role of the dice for the next 4-5 players

Not sure why you’re criticizing his pre-snap reads. That seemed to be an area where he knew what he was doing and was making proper checks at the line depending on the defense.

[Boxcar]

14 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Not sure why you’re criticizing his pre-snap reads. That seemed to be an area where he knew what he was doing and was making proper checks at the line depending on the defense.

As a glaring example of Josh's ability to read the defense pre snap, I present the Jake Kumerow bullet. He knew exactly where, when and to whom he was throwing the ball before he got it. He misleads the safeties by looking right until Kumerow is in position and then fires a bullet. Josh's reads are one of the best parts of his game and obviously something he works really hard at.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Boxcar

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Buftex said:

I'd say "at least" 4th. Sure, I like him more than the rest, but hard to make arguments against Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers.  

 

Brady's offense was stacked  Even before the addition of Brown.

[CorkScrewHill]

I think if we take a step back  and consider it in the lens of … just next season … obviously if it were the next 15 years Brady and Rodgers would be much lower, then top 6 feels right. You may value his upside more, others may favor the consistency of a Wilson. Still not buying their stuff, but seems fair

[DCOrange]

Considering this is essentially based on the last three seasons, #6 feels pretty good for Allen. He was obviously elite last year, but the prior two years weigh his rating down enough to drop him to #6. The same reasoning explains Wilson being high despite the drop-off he had over the second half of the year last year. He was elite the first half of the year and elite the prior two years, so therefore, still a top 5 ranking. Watson was amazing last year and very good in prior seasons, so again, shouldn't be much of a surprise.

17 hours ago, Doc said:

He needs to cut down on the fumbles when scrambling or getting sacked, I think we can all agree.  As for the "turnover-worthy plays," I believe there was a video of them and the vast majority would have taken superhuman effort to turn them into INTs.

That video was from Cian Fahey, who tries to do the same thing but is not in any way connected to PFF. It's possible that PFF considered many of those same plays to be turnover-worthy, but they haven't shown video evidence as far as I know. The best they've done as far as being transparent about it is this article that breaks down what is and isn't considered a turnover-worthy play.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-qb-grading-most-effective-tool-there-is

 

With interception-worthy plays, they're essentially looking for throws that are late/poorly located and allow the DB to attempt to intercept it or plays where the QB just misreads it badly and throws the ball straight to the defender for what should be an easy INT.

 

As far as fumbles go, they discount things like bad snaps, missed handoffs, dropped pitches, etc. that are traditionally assigned as fumbles by the QB but aren't really their fault. They also discount "strip-sacks that are unavoidable" as those are blamed on the pass-protection. Allen tends to have a lot of fumbles when he's running or trying too hard in the pocket on plays that probably wouldn't be blamed on the OLine, so it's no surprise that he's among the leaders in turnover-worthy plays. Also, it's total turnover-worthy plays, so naturally, if you're throwing the ball a ton/having your QB run a ton like Allen does, there are more opportunities for turnover-worthy plays than a lot of other QBs have.

Edited May 19, 2021 by DCOrange

[nedboy7]

Well that's why you play the game.  For PFF's off-season rankings. 

[Gambit]

2 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

How is it laughable?

Josh is better and there's no debating it. 

[Nextmanup]

"That's right — 23 turnover-worthy plays, but only 16 turnovers, which was still a top-10 figure among quarterbacks. It looks as though there was definite potential for worse, which was only exceeded by that of Wentz in his abysmal 2020 campaign with the Philadelphia Eagles."

Edited May 19, 2021 by Nextmanup

[Buftex]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Brady's offense was stacked  Even before the addition of Brown.

Yeah, like I said, I will take Josh over the rest at this point..but you aren't going to win a lot of arguments saying that he is better than Brady...even if we know it. Brady has been doing it for decades (literally) with varying levels of talent around him...

 

[LABILLBACKER]

He's #1 in FF rankings...that says all you need to know.

[Big Turk]

23 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Did Wilson manage to get a MVP vote in a year he seemed destined to get at least one.

 

Wilson seems to do the same thing every year...he has stretches of the year where he is amazing then at some point the offense basically stops being able to move the ball and he has either games where he is invisible or long stretches of a game where he does nothing.

 

Happens year after year but nobody calls him out on how he just seems to disappear at times?

[CorkScrewHill]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

"That's right — 23 turnover-worthy plays, but only 16 turnovers, which was still a top-10 figure among quarterbacks. It looks as though there was definite potential for worse, which was only exceeded by that of Wentz in his abysmal 2020 campaign with the Philadelphia Eagles."

I also wonder if more of Josh's turnover worthy plays that are not turnovers are due to how hard he throws.  I would think it would take some getting used to. If you are not expecting the ball to get there so hard and so quickly I could see "drops" by DBs.

[WideNine]

5 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Not sure why you’re criticizing his pre-snap reads. That seemed to be an area where he knew what he was doing and was making proper checks at the line depending on the defense.

 

I think Allen was getting better too, but KC was throwing him off by changing alignment right before the snap... and that was causing him a lot of confusion.

 

Perhaps his presnap process was getting a bit too predictable so it was easier to time when to throw in the monkey wrench.

 

Not sure how you prevent that other than throw in some no-huddle to force more base defense looks and/or call runs and such that do not rely upon much pre-snap coverage reads and protections and start dictating cadence more....

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by WideNine

[Jay_Fixit]

4 hours ago, Gambit said:

Josh is better and there's no debating it. 

There’s actually quite a bit to debating it.

 

Hence why I asked the question.

[oldmanfan]

Never look at PFF, never will.  

[Chaos]

1. Allen

2. Mahomes

3. no one else matters. 

[Ya Digg?]

6 hours ago, Gambit said:

Josh is better and there's no debating it. 

Well why didn't someone just say this at the beginning of this thread??  Then this wouldn't have carried on for 4 pages!  Take off you Bills colored glasses for a second and it's certainly debatable.  Josh had a better season this past season, but Watson has been at a very high level since he entered the league - can't say the same about Josh

[Gambit]

2 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Well why didn't someone just say this at the beginning of this thread??  Then this wouldn't have carried on for 4 pages!  Take off you Bills colored glasses for a second and it's certainly debatable.  Josh had a better season this past season, but Watson has been at a very high level since he entered the league - can't say the same about Josh

Watson also had Hopkins until last year. Josh gets his number 1 and works his ass off and it showed. My Bills colored glasses? It's not like I said he was better than Mahomes or Rodgers. 

[Ya Digg?]

6 hours ago, Gambit said:

Watson also had Hopkins until last year. Josh gets his number 1 and works his ass off and it showed. My Bills colored glasses? It's not like I said he was better than Mahomes or Rodgers. 

And without Hopkins he still threw for almost 5000 yards, only had 7 interceptions, 112 rating, and did all this with really no one to throw to. What I’m taking aim at in your comments is you said it’s not even debatable that Josh is superior. While it looks like Watson is a creep, the guy is an incredibly talented quarterback and you saying it shouldn’t even be debated is laughable. Obviously as a Bills fan I want Allen ranked higher and i do in fact think he will end up being the better QB but I’m also not discounting or degrading what Watson can do on the field 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I stopped at PFF

[Boxcar]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:00 PM, Doc said:

He needs to cut down on the fumbles when scrambling or getting sacked, I think we can all agree.  As for the "turnover-worthy plays," I believe there was a video of them and the vast majority would have taken superhuman effort to turn them into INTs.

Especially compared to the ones from Mahomes, which were mostly just drops. Hopefully a sign for the future.

 

I don't really understand how you can have a subjective standalone stat. For example, Tyreek Hill had 11 drops last year with one outlet, and 5 with another. If there's no objective measure as to what constitutes a "dropped pass" or "turnover worthy play" then that stat is completely worthless. I mean, number of receptions is a pretty meaningless stat because a quick screen and a 40 yard bomb are both receptions in the books, but at least in both cases the receiver objectively caught the ball and advanced his team on the field. You see this in every sport, the analytics crowd starts to form and then you have sites like PFF, which are somewhat useful but unfortunately staffed by conceited a-holes who aren't smart enough to be employed in an NFL front office, so they spend their time talking down to the common "dumb fans" to make themselves feel better. For analytics driven people (supposedly) they sure seem to have a hard time being objective when it comes to retracting old, ice cold takes.

 

What's worst about PFF is that, unlike analytic sites in other sports, you have to pay like 35 bucks a month just to be able to see their stats. It's ridiculous.

 

There's value in being a dumb fan. I used to run a Blue Jays podcast that was gaining traction, doing pretty well, but I was always analyzing things from an analytic perspective. There's no nuance. Something is either the correct decision or the wrong decision. Your best hitter should not hit 3rd. Starting pitchers should not pitch more than twice through the batting order, etc. etc.

 

Eventually, it just sucks all the fun out of the game and I got burnt out to the point where I no longer watch baseball because I don't enjoy it. The Rays ruined baseball and I hate them, and I'm glad that them "following analytics" cost them the WS last year.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Boxcar

[DJB]

So hes now ranked 2nd last by PFF? 🤔

[Gambit]

8 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

And without Hopkins he still threw for almost 5000 yards, only had 7 interceptions, 112 rating, and did all this with really no one to throw to. What I’m taking aim at in your comments is you said it’s not even debatable that Josh is superior. While it looks like Watson is a creep, the guy is an incredibly talented quarterback and you saying it shouldn’t even be debated is laughable. Obviously as a Bills fan I want Allen ranked higher and i do in fact think he will end up being the better QB but I’m also not discounting or degrading what Watson can do on the field 

Neither am I. I think Watson is a damn good QB. Just not top 3 good imo. My bad for saying it's not debatable. I also never once brought up his off field issues.

[Jay_Fixit]

9 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

And without Hopkins he still threw for almost 5000 yards, only had 7 interceptions, 112 rating, and did all this with really no one to throw to. What I’m taking aim at in your comments is you said it’s not even debatable that Josh is superior. While it looks like Watson is a creep, the guy is an incredibly talented quarterback and you saying it shouldn’t even be debated is laughable. Obviously as a Bills fan I want Allen ranked higher and i do in fact think he will end up being the better QB but I’m also not discounting or degrading what Watson can do on the field 

Refreshing post.