Giving The D A Pass

[wagne591]

I was thinking about this a lot lately and I have come to this conclusion. When Beane signed Butler and Jefferson for the D-line last year he did that counting on Lotulelei (6'2" 315) to play all year. So I give him a pass on how poor our pass rush was last year. Star being out not only effected our pass rush IMO but it also didn't help in the development of Oliver either. I think with Star coming back this season it will free up some more guys to rush the passer because he commands a double team most of the time and last year noone on our line commanded one. So I think you will see some improvements next year with the guys we have....also not saying we wont draft an edge rusher or another D tackle to help either. In fact now would be a good time to draft another one to mirror Star as he gets older and I don't think he will be around much longer.  Here are some of my picks...

 

Marvin Wilson FSU 6'3 319

Tyler Shelvin LSU 6'3" 346

Bobby Brown III TAM 6'3" 325

Naquan Jones MSU 6'4" 338

 

All guys that played the 1-tech in college and all can play stuff the run. All should be available in the second round or later (might have to move up to get a couple in the second). I just think we need to start looking for backups to learn from the guys getting older. It is ok for guys to sit a year or get the left over snaps. Thoughts...

[Boxcar]

My thought is that many people are grossly overstating how bad the defense was last year. It was above average and our two top LBs were injured most of the season.

[TheBeaneBandit]

I think finding a rookie 1tech who can collapse the pocket is just as important as finding an edge rusher. Pressure up the middle makes the greatest QBs of all time look average or even have bad games.

[Doc]

I agree that the Bills were counting on Star when they signed everyone only to see him opt-out on the cusp of training camp.  And while he should help the defense, he'll likely be gone after the year.  A replacement needs to be found sooner rather than later.

[JGMcD2]

30 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

My thought is that many people are grossly overstating how bad the defense was last year. It was above average and our two top LBs were injured most of the season.

This is very true. VERY true and very well said. 
 

We sorely need a guy who can cover TE. The Buffalo Nickel so to speak... I think the front office has known that for awhile now. I’m actually upset/surprised they took Epenesa over Chinn last year. 
 

I really thought that they were going to go with Dugger had he been there or Chinn. I suppose they didn’t foresee Epenesa being available. 

[Mr. WEO]

Wow.  So much being put on Star, a situational player who chose not to play last year, coming in and having what would have to be a career year to live up to expectations.

[Fan in Chicago]

45 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

My thought is that many people are grossly overstating how bad the defense was last year. It was above average and our two top LBs were injured most of the season.

Statistically, perhaps you are correct. But they got man handled in the playoffs. The goal post has clearly shifted. Getting to the playoffs or AFCCG is no longer enough. 

[Freddie's Dead]

What's a D A Pass?

[Fan in Chicago]

30 minutes ago, Doc said:

I agree that the Bills were counting on Star when they signed everyone only to see him opt-out on the cusp of training camp.  And while he should help the defense, he'll likely be gone after the year.  A replacement needs to be found sooner rather than later.

Yep. Can't go into next season believing that Star was the sole missing piece. He may help but could turn up Friday, too light, too unmotivated or all of the above. 

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

What's a D A Pass?

It's that thing opposing QBs complete cos our D doesn't get sufficient pressure 😁

[Billschinatown]

59 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

My thought is that many people are grossly overstating how bad the defense was last year. It was above average and our two top LBs were injured most of the season.

 

The Kansas game was pretty ***** bad.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

52 minutes ago, wagne591 said:

I was thinking about this a lot lately and I have come to this conclusion. When Beane signed Butler and Jefferson for the D-line last year he did that counting on Lotulelei (6'2" 315) to play all year. So I give him a pass on how poor our pass rush was last year. Star being out not only effected our pass rush IMO but it also didn't help in the development of Oliver either. I think with Star coming back this season it will free up some more guys to rush the passer because he commands a double team most of the time and last year noone on our line commanded one. So I think you will see some improvements next year with the guys we have....also not saying we wont draft an edge rusher or another D tackle to help either. In fact now would be a good time to draft another one to mirror Star as he gets older and I don't think he will be around much longer.  Here are some of my picks...

 

Marvin Wilson FSU 6'3 319

Tyler Shelvin LSU 6'3" 346

Bobby Brown III TAM 6'3" 325

Naquan Jones MSU 6'4" 338

 

All guys that played the 1-tech in college and all can play stuff the run. All should be available in the second round or later (might have to move up to get a couple in the second). I just think we need to start looking for backups to learn from the guys getting older. It is ok for guys to sit a year or get the left over snaps. Thoughts...

 

The other thing that caused issues last year, going into training camp I was kind of happy that the Bills had very little turnover of their starting lineup from the year prior.  For a season without mini camps and no pre-season, figured that would help them more than other teams. With a 13-3 record, maybe it did?  The only new starters they had were Diggs and Klein.  At the beginning of camp they still had the same O-line, (Spain was projected starter) DeMarco was back at fullback, same starters on the D-line and secondary.

 

While overall 20 or 22 starters back was pretty good, but by the time week 1 rolled around, while all 4 starters were back on the D-line, it did have 3 new subs, plus Phillips missed most of 2019 and a rookie.  Add to that as you stated Star opting out caused even more churn.  Don't think they ever really found a true replacement for him and they ended up for the 1st half of the season playing musical chairs with the 1 technique.  Eventually they settled on Butler, but he was far from perfect.  Throw in that Murphy became a non-factor by the second half and you had a mess there.  So do agree both with having Star back and pretty much no new faces will help.  Will need an improvement from Addison though.  Wonder if they will tweak the defense some to use Klein as 3rd LB more in passing down and let him just blitz from all over, but that means no 5th CB on the field or only 3 down lineman?

 

Yeah agree with drafting Star's eventual replacement, but does worry me some to find a roster spot for him this year likely mean cutting either Phillips or Zimmer.  While neither is a game changer, they still may be better than a 2nd/3rd round rookie.  Maybe the answer is draft the guy, then someone step on his toe in the pre-season so they can hide him on IR all year or at least till late in the season if someone gets hurt.

 

 

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The other thing that caused issues last year, going into training camp I was kind of happy that the Bills had very little turnover of their starting lineup from the year prior.  For a season without mini camps and no pre-season, figured that would help them more than other teams. With a 13-3 record, maybe it did?  The only new starters they had were Diggs and Klein.  At the beginning of camp they still had the same O-line, (Spain was projected starter) DeMarco was back at fullback, same starters on the D-line and secondary.

 

While overall 20 or 22 starters back was pretty good, but by the time week 1 rolled around, while all 4 starters were back on the D-line, it did have 3 new subs, plus Phillips missed most of 2019 and a rookie.  Add to that as you stated Star opting out caused even more churn.  Don't think they ever really found a true replacement for him and they ended up for the 1st half of the season playing musical chairs with the 1 technique.  Eventually they settled on Butler, but he was far from perfect.  Throw in that Murphy became a non-factor by the second half and you had a mess there.  So do agree both with having Star back and pretty much no new faces will help.  Will need an improvement from Addison though.  Wonder if they will tweak the defense some to use Klein as 3rd LB more in passing down and let him just blitz from all over, but that means no 5th CB on the field or only 3 down lineman?

 

Yeah agree with drafting Star's eventual replacement, but does worry me some to find a roster spot for him this year likely mean cutting either Phillips or Zimmer.  While neither is a game changer, they still may be better than a 2nd/3rd round rookie.  Maybe the answer is draft the guy, then someone step on his toe in the pre-season so they can hide him on IR all year or at least till late in the season if someone gets hurt.

 

Let the best man win (a roster spot).  The other(s) can go on the PS.

[Boxcar]

15 minutes ago, Billschinatown said:

 

The Kansas game was pretty ***** bad.

Yeah, judging a defense based on one game is not a very good idea.

29 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Statistically, perhaps you are correct. But they got man handled in the playoffs. The goal post has clearly shifted. Getting to the playoffs or AFCCG is no longer enough. 

Does KC need to vastly improve on offense after scoring 0 touchdowns in the SB?

 

No. They don't. I honestly can't believe the number of people who judge an entire defense based on one game, especially a game that directly followed them holding the Ravens to 3 points.

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Let the best man win (a roster spot).  The other(s) can go on the PS.

 

Yeah but you're not going to slip a 2nd or 3rd rounder to the PS.  Not sure either if Phillips, Zimmer, or Johnson would have any PS eligibility left assuming we are going back to the old PS rules which not sure I heard what the plans are around that?  Even if they are eligible, not sure they could slip through either without getting claimed.

 

The Bills have 7 draft picks this year, assuming 5 make the roster, not sure they have five slots for them that won't involve releasing a player who by week 1 is considerably better than a rookie.  Can a spot on O-Line (maybe two) LB,CB, S,  Other positions they have pretty strong backups.

 

 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Yeah but you're not going to slip a 2nd or 3rd rounder to the PS.  Not sure either if Phillips, Zimmer, or Johnson would have any PS eligibility left assuming we are going back to the old PS rules which not sure I heard what the plans are around that?  Even if they are eligible, not sure they could slip through either without getting claimed.

 

The Bills have 7 draft picks this year, assuming 5 make the roster, not sure they have five slots for them that won't involve releasing a player who by week 1 is considerably better than a rookie.  Can a spot on O-Line (maybe two) LB,CB, S,  Other positions they have pretty strong backups.

 

I wasn't talking about PS'ing the 2nd or 3rd round pick.  And I don't think they're changing the PS rules back.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

I wasn't talking about PS'ing the 2nd or 3rd round pick.  And I don't think they're changing the PS rules back.

 

Understand, but then who are you talking about?  My response was just stating that unlikely you'll get anyone to the PS from last years D line. While not that good, they all were good enough to not pass thru.

[glazeduck]

I often find myself asking the wife to give the D a pass 🤣

 

In all seriousness... I’m sure not having Star did affect things, to some degree, but one thing I feel very confident in, it’s put up or shut up time for Oliver. Our defense needs him to take a step (wish I could’ve said “another” but I don’t feel like he’s developed much, as of yet.) Hopefully Star can absorb some OL attention and free Big Ed up, but that guy’s running out i of excuses.  
 

Defensive performance is all interconnected — DL play affects DB and LB play, etc., so hopefully getting him back, hopefully with a little added help through FA or the draft, will help everywhere. 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, wagne591 said:

I was thinking about this a lot lately and I have come to this conclusion. When Beane signed Butler and Jefferson for the D-line last year he did that counting on Lotulelei (6'2" 315) to play all year. So I give him a pass on how poor our pass rush was last year. Star being out not only effected our pass rush IMO but it also didn't help in the development of Oliver either.

 

Thoughts...

 

Shouldn't GM be able to look into the future like the Circle of Nostradamus posters?

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Understand, but then who are you talking about?  My response was just stating that unlikely you'll get anyone to the PS from last years D line. While not that good, they all were good enough to not pass thru.

 

If the rookie looks promising, it's the chance you take.  Sometimes you have to let good players go to keep better ones.

[glazeduck]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

I think you mean Edmunds...

Nope. Edmunds struggled this year, no question, but he’s not been Oliver-bad, ever, in my opinion. 
 

Oliver was the higher draft pick and has done far less in his time here. 

[Tcali]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Wow.  So much being put on Star, a situational player who chose not to play last year, coming in and having what would have to be a career year to live up to expectations.

i dont know about that. i just think we need more weight on the d line(in addition to a passrusher)  We lost 2 good fat guys last yr.Thats why we were only barely avg on D .

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tcali

[The Firebaugh Kid]

The D played well. Except against KC. I still blame that game on coaching.  It's like Dick Jauron took over for a game. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Boxcar said:

My thought is that many people are grossly overstating how bad the defense was last year. It was above average and our two top LBs were injured most of the season.

 

 

Yes. The last half of the year they were really good.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

24 minutes ago, glazeduck said:

Nope. Edmunds struggled this year, no question, but he’s not been Oliver-bad, ever, in my opinion. 
 

Oliver was the higher draft pick and has done far less in his time here. 

 

Oliver has consistently improved. He has been good, it was his second year, and he and Edmunds were the two players most hurt by Star's absence. They both look like key building blocks and long-term fixtures. 

 

Both need to improve, but so does everyone.

[Bangarang]

Does any site keep track of how often guys are taking on double teams?

 

Star constantly being double teamed is something I see repeated a lot.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Wow.  So much being put on Star, a situational player who chose not to play last year, coming in and having what would have to be a career year to live up to expectations.

 

 

No reason to think so. They were an elite D in 2019, with Star and substantially the same best players.

 

The OP is dead right on this ... without him the DL is athletic but small and could be pushed around. With him in there getting the doubles, they don't look so small anymore and everyone else gets a lot more single blocks. There was a ripple effect that we saw in 2019 that was not there last year.

 

Star's not a great player, but he's a guy who does his one thing very well.

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is very true. VERY true and very well said. 
 

We sorely need a guy who can cover TE. The Buffalo Nickel so to speak... I think the front office has known that for awhile now. I’m actually upset/surprised they took Epenesa over Chinn last year. 
 

I really thought that they were going to go with Dugger had he been there or Chinn. I suppose they didn’t foresee Epenesa being available. 

Dugger played about 1.5miles from me, was really excited about him..... then NE happened 🤢

[In Summary]

A better 1-tech DT will make Oliver and Edmunds more effective and lessen the pressure on our safeties to make so many run stops.  Hanging this responsibility solely on Star wouldn't be my preference.  I'd love to see a 1-tech in rounds 2-4.

[Solomon Grundy]

13 minutes ago, In Summary said:

A better 1-tech DT will make Oliver and Edmunds more effective and lessen the pressure on our safeties to make so many run stops.  Hanging this responsibility solely on Star wouldn't be my preference.  I'd love to see a 1-tech in rounds 2-4.

This draft is deep with big nose tackles. Want the Bills to get the nastiest. One that can stop the run and push the interior of the line. Too many times QBs were able to step up in the pocket and deliver passes. I like Slaton late in the draft. Others are Lorenzo Neal Jr and Quinton Bohanna

[gonzo1105]

Out of all the Edge guys, I think I like Azeez Oujlari the best but idk how he fits, he’s about 6’2 250. I think I’d roll the dice there at 30 if he’s still there 

 

we need a true 1T to replace Star who clearly won’t be here after next year. 

[glazeduck]

42 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Out of all the Edge guys, I think I like Azeez Oujlari the best but idk how he fits, he’s about 6’2 250. I think I’d roll the dice there at 30 if he’s still there 

 

we need a true 1T to replace Star who clearly won’t be here after next year. 

I like Paye and Phillips more than Ojulari, but I don’t think he’s a fit here at all. He’s going to have to go to an odd front defense and be rush LB. Don’t see him as a good fit for us at all. 

[Da webster guy]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Wow.  So much being put on Star, a situational player who chose not to play last year, coming in and having what would have to be a career year to live up to expectations.

 

Yeah I agree.  Since when has this cat been above average EVER?  Much less taking a full year off, has a lot of miles on him, hasn't played a live snap in well over a year.  If he's been training like a freak and focused, maybe he meets expectations but I feel like we've generally been overestimating the guy since he's been gone.

 

I make that mistake with my ex girlfriends, and then when I see em again I'm like "uhhhhh, yeah so I mustve been remembering only the good stuff...."

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Oliver has not lived up to his draft status.  Edmunds regressed badly. Even White had a few games where he struggled. Despite whatever win rate means the D-line was not affecting the opposing QB much and to compensate Frazier blitzed more than he ever has. H. Phillips did not look good coming off injury and was outplayed by journeyman Zimmerman. 

Star will help but they need more talent up front. There is not one front 7 Bills defender that wpuld start for Tampa. That doesn't mean all 7 ate bad. But they need at least one true difference maker and a NT to develop from this draft.  And they need to see solid improvement from Edmunds, Epenesa, and Oliver. 

[LABILLBACKER]

The bottom line here is Star should help improve Oliver's play and to a lesser extent Edmund's but he's only going to be around this season and then likely gone. Beane needs to hit on a good young 1Tech. Marvin could be a target.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, gonzo1105 said:

Out of all the Edge guys, I think I like Azeez Oujlari the best but idk how he fits, he’s about 6’2 250. I think I’d roll the dice there at 30 if he’s still there 

 

we need a true 1T to replace Star who clearly won’t be here after next year. 

 

 

The fact that it's clear to you doesn't mean it's actually clear.

 

That's one guess. And with how little money they'd save cutting him even next year, a guess that could very easily be wrong.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Da webster guy said:

 

Yeah I agree.  Since when has this cat been above average EVER?  Much less taking a full year off, has a lot of miles on him, hasn't played a live snap in well over a year.  If he's been training like a freak and focused, maybe he meets expectations but I feel like we've generally been overestimating the guy since he's been gone.

 

I make that mistake with my ex girlfriends, and then when I see em again I'm like "uhhhhh, yeah so I mustve been remembering only the good stuff...."

 

 

To me, this is hilarious.

 

Star was these boards favorite whipping boy through all of 2019. Then due to a pre-existing medical condition has him opt out and we see the D take a major step back.

 

And for a few weeks people say, "Oh, gee, we really missed this guy." But that's all forgotten and now it's "can't believe he opted out."

 

I mean, the way folks have to desperately twist and flail to find ways to criticize the guy. It cracks me up. You've got a great example here too. First, you criticize him for taking a year off. Then you do a 180 and criticize him for having a lot of miles. Hunh? He just took a year off. And then after knocking him for too many miles, it's "hasn't played a live snap for a year."

 

Jeez, which is it? Played too much? Played too little? You can't reasonably have it both ways, though many here seem to try exactly these arguments, and, wackily, together.

 

The girlfriends simile doesn't work. You saw your girlfriends again. You have NOT seen Star, you're just remembering him, and unlike what you apparently did with your exes, underestimating. We missed him last year, a lot, especially Oliver and Edmunds.

 

 

Oh, and in answer to your question, my answer is likely the same as the Bills think. He's been above average every year he's played. At what they hired him to do. No, he's not athletic, and no he's not going to penetrate just about ever. But is he well above average as a space eater, which is what they knew he was when they signed him? The Bills would tell you yes, and the evidence shows they believe it.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Malazan]

4 hours ago, wagne591 said:

I was thinking about this a lot lately and I have come to this conclusion. When Beane signed Butler and Jefferson for the D-line last year he did that counting on Lotulelei (6'2" 315) to play all year. So I give him a pass on how poor our pass rush was last year. Star being out not only effected our pass rush IMO but it also didn't help in the development of Oliver either. I think with Star coming back this season it will free up some more guys to rush the passer because he commands a double team most of the time and last year noone on our line commanded one. So I think you will see some improvements next year with the guys we have....also not saying we wont draft an edge rusher or another D tackle to help either. In fact now would be a good time to draft another one to mirror Star as he gets older and I don't think he will be around much longer.  Here are some of my picks...

 

Marvin Wilson FSU 6'3 319

Tyler Shelvin LSU 6'3" 346

Bobby Brown III TAM 6'3" 325

Naquan Jones MSU 6'4" 338

 

All guys that played the 1-tech in college and all can play stuff the run. All should be available in the second round or later (might have to move up to get a couple in the second). I just think we need to start looking for backups to learn from the guys getting older. It is ok for guys to sit a year or get the left over snaps. Thoughts...

 

I'd say more than Star opting out is that the guys the Bills signed were quicker, penetrating guys which made sense given the way the league was going. Then the league changed how holding was called and it impacts those guys way more than bigger, power rushers. 

 

3 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Shouldn't GM be able to look into the future like the Circle of Nostradamus posters?

 

Some folks are really good at telling the future when it's in the past. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by jeremy2020

[Brand J]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Does any site keep track of how often guys are taking on double teams?

 

Star constantly being double teamed is something I see repeated a lot.

It’s a popular opinion, but every time I zeroed in on Star, he was fighting a single team stalemate. That’s pretty much what happens to him every down - he won’t push the pocket, but he doesn’t lose ground either. He’s just kinda there. There was a stretch of about 3 games or so where he started to actually show on the field, but aside from that he’s mostly invisible, unless he’s getting completely turned around as Adrian Peterson runs through his gap. Aside from offensive design, double teams are reserved for players who demand that sort of respect (ie Aaron Donald). Star isn’t one of those players unfortunately.

[machine gun kelly]

7 hours ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

The D played well. Except against KC. I still blame that game on coaching.  It's like Dick Jauron took over for a game. 

 

We were 14th in defense, 16th in points so average, not bad.  We improved as we became healthy from Seattle thereafter, but we were 2nd in offense.  It’s not that we have to make incredible improvements, but just move into the top 10.  We were a little spoiled as we were 3rd in defense in 2019, but partially influenced by playing the NFC Least.

 

We need more pressure from the front four.  There is no denying it, but to say we had a bad defense is just not accurate.  We were 13-3, 15-4 if you count the playoffs, and by god we had a bad game against the Chiefs.  Everyone seems to forget our defense held the Ravens to 3 pts. the week before.  I don’t think Star is the next coming of Donald, but he’s a solid DT.

 

To the OP’s point, drafting a DT is not a bad idea if one is available, and I’m not sure if we can get an impactful DE, but I’m sure it’s on their radar.

[Charles Romes]

The Chiefs went punt(dropped pass), TD,TD,TD,FG,TD,TD in the AFCCG