Flores: Tua benched, not hurt

[JGMcD2]

Pretty wild how much easier it was for them to move the ball with Fitzpatrick at QB. 
 

Tua will start next week against the Jets and should look fine/get the win. Same thing with the Bengals.

 

Games against KC, NE, LV and Buffalo will be a much different story. Going to be a tough stretch for him... if the defense doesn’t bail him out like they did against AZ and LA then it’s probably best to start Fitzpatrick. 

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What do you see as their long-term plan?

 

If they think Tua is the guy, how is it  consistent with a long-range plan to yank him?

 

 

It was an odd move considering it was only a 10 point game at the time of the move.  It eminded me of all those times over the past two seasons when Josh struggled and fans would demand Matt Barkley.  It was explained ad naseum why you don’t pull your rookie QB.  Flores literally did it!  It just seems like a quick shortsighted move

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, JohnNord said:

It was an odd move considering it was only a 10 point game at the time of the move.  It eminded me of all those times over the past two seasons when Josh struggled and fans would demand Matt Barkley.  It was explained ad naseum why you don’t pull your rookie QB.  Flores literally did it!  It just seems like a quick shortsighted move

 

As I said in the shoutbox, maybe it is possible to both develop your rookie QB AND to pursue wins.  But I think there's probably good reason why coaches do either or, not both.

 

Fitzy said all the right things about it:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30368504/miami-dolphins-ryan-fitzpatrick-replaces-tua-tagovailoa-qb-4th-quarter-vs-denver-broncos

After the game, Fitzpatrick resumed his mentor role with Tagovailoa, making it clear there won't be a quarterback controversy moving forward.

"It's very clear that this is Tua's team. Tua is going to continue to get better and grow," said Fitzpatrick, who finished 12-of-18 passing for 117 yards and that interception. "For me, my defined role is whatever the team needs out of me. ... There's no controversy. This is his team. He's going to lead this team and continue to lead the team. We just got to pull in the right direction and get everybody to continue to get better."

 

I don't see how there can help but be controversy no matter how careful Fitz is not to generate or feed it.  The guys were playing well with Fitz in there at the start of the season, if Tua gets pulled for Fitz who then moves the team when Tua can't, how can the WR and TE and OL help but notice and be like "why don't we just start with this guy then?"

[BananaB]

Well that didn’t take long.  Flores is buying into the hype of his team and making dumb decisions. Us Bills fans know you can’t do it all with just your D, especially now in todays NFL.... You decided to do what’s best for your team in the future, it’s not all gonna go as planned but you gotta stick with your guy. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by BananaB

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Pretty wild how much easier it was for them to move the ball with Fitzpatrick at QB. 
 

Tua will start next week against the Jets and should look fine/get the win. Same thing with the Bengals.

 

Games against KC, NE, LV and Buffalo will be a much different story. Going to be a tough stretch for him... if the defense doesn’t bail him out like they did against AZ and LA then it’s probably best to start Fitzpatrick. 

 

I'm not so sure you're right about the Jets.  The Jets D, I think, is about on the same level as the Broncs D is this year (I know that's surprising).  They've been hampered by offensive turnovers and lack of offensive productivity as well as by stupid undisciplined penalties.  But in addition to being a scum, I think Greg Williams is a pretty good play designer and his D is probably as well able to confuse a rookie QB as Denvers is. 

 

It's possible that defensive and ST takeaways may give him enough field position not to matter.  But what if Tua struggles and can't move the ball and is taking a lot of sacks?  Will Flores get the hook out again?  Will it be on Tua's mind that the hook is waiting?

 

Without Burrows especially, yeah, Bengals should be a rout and yeah, KC, NE and LV are going to be a challenge.  KC and LV both have good Ds despite what it looked like tonight, and Belichek is the Jedi Master of confusing young QB

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

I still think it was somewhat injury or precautionary because that last sack from Chubb was right on the surgically repaired HIP. And I could have SWORE I saw Tua grab his hip after the sack. 
 

now Flores will never mention that Hip in a setting like we took him out because he had some pain in his hip on that last sack. 

 

 

 

Yeah I think they have to be concerned with the hits he was taking.

 

Earlier in the week Tua basically said he didn't know if he would ever be the same player he used to be physically.

 

And today we saw that.

 

He doesn't move well.........there were plays where MOST young QB's can get away from the rush or get to the edge running the ball.......but Tua........who used to be quick and fast.......couldn't.

 

The biggest concern with him was obviously that he has had a myriad of ankle/knee/hip issues...........I mean it was thought by many that they would basically redshirt him this year to get his hip as healthy as possible..........so I wouldn't be very surprised to see them go back to that plan.

[mannc]

Every week I’m more thankful that the Dolphins passed on Justin Herbert...

[Big Blitz]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

As I said in the shoutbox, maybe it is possible to both develop your rookie QB AND to pursue wins.  But I think there's probably good reason why coaches do either or, not both.

 

Fitzy said all the right things about it:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30368504/miami-dolphins-ryan-fitzpatrick-replaces-tua-tagovailoa-qb-4th-quarter-vs-denver-broncos

After the game, Fitzpatrick resumed his mentor role with Tagovailoa, making it clear there won't be a quarterback controversy moving forward.

"It's very clear that this is Tua's team. Tua is going to continue to get better and grow," said Fitzpatrick, who finished 12-of-18 passing for 117 yards and that interception. "For me, my defined role is whatever the team needs out of me. ... There's no controversy. This is his team. He's going to lead this team and continue to lead the team. We just got to pull in the right direction and get everybody to continue to get better."

 

 

 

Fitz is just one of the best humans to ever play the game. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Yeah I think they have to be concerned with the hits he was taking.

 

Earlier in the week Tua basically said he didn't know if he would ever be the same player he used to be physically.

 

And today we saw that.

 

He doesn't move well.........there were plays where MOST young QB's can get away from the rush or get to the edge running the ball.......but Tua........who used to be quick and fast.......couldn't.

 

The biggest concern with him was obviously that he has had a myriad of ankle/knee/hip issues...........I mean it was thought by many that they would basically redshirt him this year to get his hip as healthy as possible..........so I wouldn't be very surprised to see them go back to that plan.

 

It wasn't a bad plan.  It wouldn't be a bad plan to go back to.  But that's not what Flores says his plan is going to be.

 

What was it McDermott said to Josh on the sideline of a preseason game: "Sooner or later you're going to get the crap beaten out of you".  He said it in a very matter of fact way, because it's true.  Sooner or later every QB is going to get the crap beaten out of him.  So if Tua has to be protected from that....I dunno about his longevity

[mannc]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

He was the consensus #1 overall pick before he got injured. Even with a broken hip he was a top 10 pick.

 

 

Meaningless.  Same was true of Sam Darnold, and he blows.  Just be thankful that the Dolphins picked an undersized, injury-prone QB who was handed the keys to an insanely talented Alabama offense.

[Putin]

1 minute ago, Gene1973 said:

This move just makes it seem like if Houston's pick is top 5 the Dolphins are already thinking about picking a QB... 

lets hope Houston gets on a little winning streak 

Just now, mannc said:

Meaningless.  Same was true of Sam Darnold, and he blows.  Just be thankful that the Dolphins picked an undersized, injury-prone QB who was handed the keys to an insanely talented Alabama offense.

Exactly ^^^^ glad Herbert is in LA

 

[Putin]

Good thing Fitzy won few games last year to help Miami not picking Burrow 

[Nitro]

Flores won with defense and not having to rely on Tua.  Fact is the kid is not ready.  Sit him down and see how he does in practice this week

[Da webster guy]

4 hours ago, DollaBills said:

Imagine completely crapping on Fitz and moving forward with Tua abruptly and then completely depending on Fitz to bail you out later

Tua was the 5th overall pick.  Bringing him in after a handful of games when you think he's ready isn't crapping on Fitz at all. 

 

I like this Flores guy.  Good mix of tough old school and innovator.  His team needed a spark and he acted.

 

Here's a quote

 

Fitz: "It's very clear this is Tua's team. For me, my defined role is whatever the team needs out of me."

 

 

 

[Putin]

Just now, Nitro said:

Flores won with defense and not having to rely on Tua.  Fact is the kid is not ready.  Sit him down and see how he does in practice this week

Don’t give them any good ideas , keep Fitzy on the bench , Miami is a much better offense with Fitzy 

1 minute ago, Da webster guy said:

Tua was the 5th overall pick.  Bringing him in after a handful of games when you think he's ready isn't crapping on Fitz at all. 

 

I like this Flores guy.  Good mix of tough old school and innovator.  His team needed a spark and he acted.

 

Here's a quote

 

Fitz: "It's very clear this is Tua's team. For me, my defined role is whatever the team needs out of me."

 

 

 

All that says is Fitz is a class act 

[Da webster guy]

4 hours ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Terrible coaching to mess with the kids confidence this early in his career. 

 

Great coaching in my opinion.  The kid was flat as hell and the Broncos werent prepped for Fitz. 

 

Tua is plenty confident, he's learning a tough job in a process that takes years.  

[Putin]

Not to crap on the kid and I know it’s still early but so far looks like Miami made a wrong choice , 

1 minute ago, Da webster guy said:

 

Great coaching in my opinion.  The kid was flat as hell and the Broncos werent prepped for Fitz. 

 

Tua is plenty confident, he's learning a tough job in a process that takes years.  

Well looking at Burrows and Herbert seems like they’re doing pretty good 

[Da webster guy]

3 minutes ago, Putin said:

Not to crap on the kid and I know it’s still early but so far looks like Miami made a wrong choice , 

Well looking at Burrows and Herbert seems like they’re doing pretty good 

Yeah they both look amazing.  Dont know which i'd rather have but Herbert has a better surrounding cast.

 

They could both end up being franchise guys for sure.  Heard a radio guy say Burrow sitting out the rest of this season might help more than it seems now that he can observe and learn from a different perspective and next year they can protect him better and sign some WR's.

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, DollaBills said:

Imagine completely crapping on Fitz and moving forward with Tua abruptly and then completely depending on Fitz to bail you out later

shows a lack of conviction by the coaching staff....I am glad McDermott persisted with Josh in his rookie year when he was healthy

2 hours ago, Putin said:

Not to crap on the kid and I know it’s still early but so far looks like Miami made a wrong choice , 

Well looking at Burrows and Herbert seems like they’re doing pretty good 

The Dolphins don't really have a good supporting cast for Tua.  THey will get better in a hurry next season when they have that Bounty from Houston available to them

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

9 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Well, he’s a tiny human, it’s gonna  as take three games to get to 300... 

"That did it!  It's go time!"

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

Yeah they both look amazing.  Dont know which i'd rather have but Herbert has a better surrounding cast.

 

They could both end up being franchise guys for sure.  Heard a radio guy say Burrow sitting out the rest of this season might help more than it seems now that he can observe and learn from a different perspective and next year they can protect him better and sign some WR's.

 

The Bungles should start by trying to sign an offensive line. Come to think of it that is still Miami's biggest issue too. Chubb feasted on them yesterday. When they have Williams back then Williams - Parker - Gesicki isn't the worst set of receiving weapons in the world.... probably two #2 receivers and a tight end who is a bit one dimensional but they can all play.

[No_Matter_What]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Bungles should start by trying to sign an offensive line. Come to think of it that is still Miami's biggest issue too. Chubb feasted on them yesterday. When they have Williams back then Williams - Parker - Gesicki isn't the worst set of receiving weapons in the world.... probably two #2 receivers and a tight end who is a bit one dimensional but they can all play.

 

Like I said yesterday immediately after Burrow went down at this stage they are virtually locked to take OT Penei Sewell with 3rd pick in 2021 draft. I have no idea about college but I guess he must be really good. They might be even lucky to take him after some trade down.

[Rochesterfan]

 

Look - I am not going to going to try and argue what type of QB Tua will be long term.  He has a quick release and some nice short/mid range accuracy, but his throws currently lack the velocity needed.  He has some anticipation and some recognition, but like many rookies - he is struggling against pressure and combo patterns and right now he will not make a throw into coverages for fear of the Int. 
 

All of that was fine when you were the best athlete and your RBs and WRs were significantly better than your opponents- meaning guys were open and reads were easier.  This is the NFL and that is no longer the case and what we have seen is he struggles to move the team consistently when the defense and special teams are not teeing up scores.

 

What I do not know is how he is willing to work or his desire and compete level.  I watched Josh Allen make a ton of mistakes, but learn and adapt and you can see each off season how much work he puts in.  Compare that to a guy like Baker Mayfield that did not put in that effort and has really not improved.  
 

This level of desire is impossible for fans to know and the best example is a jerk of a QB in Brady.  When the Pats originally went to Brady after Bledsoe recovered - I thought great - this guy does not have the arm to be a full time NFL QB and I thought long term Bledsoe would of ended up being the better QB, but the level of competitiveness was just not measurable and that is where I am on Tua.  Until we see if he has the desire to get significantly better and take his craft to the next level - this is all just base lining for me.  Right now Fitz is the better QB and more prepared, but the Dolphins are not winning anything with him - they need a next level to move on.

 

The last thing I will say is the benching does not matter long term if Flores handles things correctly in the locker room.  Tua knows he was not good and they all know they need AFC wins badly because of their division and conference record.  It is not just about the division, but getting to the playoffs and it may come down to a bunch of tiebreakers.  If that benching throws off Tua’s mind set to the point he struggles - then he is not the QB you want leading your team.  If Flores addresses the team and basically is honest - they will be ok (we saw it in Buffalo).  What would worry me if I was a Dolphin fan is that repeatedly when the change was made - NFL reporters pointed out that this was not necessarily Flores decision to bench Fitz and go with Tua, but came from management.  If that is the case and the players believe that - this benching could have a longer impact because the team and the players know that Flores believes Fitz is better overall.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, Jaraxxus said:

Alabama QBs gonna Alabama QB

How dare you, sir?!  Robert Foster, noted TSW contributor Sky Diver, and a host of illustrious sons of the south will not allow that slur to stand!

*
😁

7 hours ago, Putin said:

Not to crap on the kid and I know it’s still early but so far looks like Miami made a wrong choice

I thought the term 'wrong choice' was reserved exclusively for the Rosen kid?!

[JerseyBills]

It's funny seeing these comments after the whole board was slurping Mia all week. I kept saying,  they beat 2 winning teams and had 2 defensive TD and 1 ST TD in those 2 games and a bunch of turnovers.  It's not sustainable.  They're a year away at least as I said all week,  while many on here were giving them the East already 

[MarkyMannn]

12 hours ago, DollaBills said:

Imagine completely crapping on Fitz and moving forward with Tua abruptly and then completely depending on Fitz to bail you out later

That's like where I work and I play the role of Fitz.  And Tua makes twice the money of me

[Captain Hindsight]

12 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

True, but....

Allen showed elite arm strength, elite athleticism and jaw dropping play ability in his first year and a half. All with Zay Jones, K. Benjamin, R. Foster, F. Gore and other stellar players LOL!!!

 

What has Tua shown? That he can manage a game once his D/ST spots him 14 points and a short field. 

 

He's accurate and may get better with more talent but as of right now,....MEH!...

Yup. The Vikings game in his second start was just a preview of what Josh was capable of. And looking back, he was not that good then

[Golden*Wheels]

If you need to make this decision now, you shouldn't have made the switch decision in the first place. Whoops!

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

The last thing I will say is the benching does not matter long term if Flores handles things correctly in the locker room.  Tua knows he was not good and they all know they need AFC wins badly because of their division and conference record.  It is not just about the division, but getting to the playoffs and it may come down to a bunch of tiebreakers.  If that benching throws off Tua’s mind set to the point he struggles - then he is not the QB you want leading your team.  If Flores addresses the team and basically is honest - they will be ok (we saw it in Buffalo).  What would worry me if I was a Dolphin fan is that repeatedly when the change was made - NFL reporters pointed out that this was not necessarily Flores decision to bench Fitz and go with Tua, but came from management.  If that is the case and the players believe that - this benching could have a longer impact because the team and the players know that Flores believes Fitz is better overall.

 

This is not comparable to benching Tyrod for Peterman. The decision on Tyrod was long since made at that point.... the Bills were moving on after the 2017 season, whatever happened. This is different. They went away from the guy they now have to tie their future to. The reason you don't do that is the same reason that even when he was sinking against the Chargers in the wildcard round John Harbaugh didn't pull Lamar to go to Flacco. It is the reason why Tom Coughlin let Eli Manning play through looking utterly horrible (far worse than Tua looked yesterday) and cost them a playoff berth. When you go to your QB of the future you have to go to them and be all in for good or bad. The moment you pull them you send a message to the rest of that organisation that is "man we are not sure about this guy." That is hard for a Quarterback to come back from. It isn't about Tua's mental state so much as it is about the message that sends to everyone else in the building. I'm trying to think about an example of a guy who has come back from that and frankly I am struggling. Alex Smith was benched a few times in San Francisco and recovered to be a serviceable starter for a year or two before being benched again for Kap. That is the closest I can get. You just don't do it.

 

It was a horrible coaching mistake from a guy I really like as a coach.

Edited November 23, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Da webster guy]

If Miami can hit on this upcoming draft with all their extra picks from The Great Unload move last year, they will be tough, but as we know all too well. If you aint got the QB, you aint got the playoff wins.

[shoshin]

He's averaging 140 yards passing per game, 6 TDs, 0 INTs. Might be a bit early to call him a bust. 

[Maynard]

Not a good look for Miami. I understand why Flores did it though. It’s either going to make him stronger or mess with his head. Either way, I’ll be happy I don’t have to hear how awesome Tua is this week. He’s been way overrated by the media.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is not comparable to benching Tyrod for Peterman. The decision on Tyrod was long since made at that point.... the Bills were moving on after the 2017 season, whatever happened. This is different. They went away from the guy they now have to tie their future to. The reason you don't do that is the same reason that even when he was sinking against the Chargers in the wildcard round John Harbaugh didn't pull Lamar to go to Flacco. It is the reason why Tom Coughlin let Eli Manning play through looking utterly horrible (far worse than Tua looked yesterday) and cost them a playoff berth. When you go to your QB of the future you have to go to them and be all in for good or bad. The moment you pull them you send a message to the rest of that organisation that is "man we are not sure about this guy." That is hard for a Quarterback to come back from. It isn't about Tua's mental state so much as it is about the message that sends to everyone else in the building. I'm trying to think about an example of a guy who has come back from that and frankly I am struggling. Alex Smith was benched a few times in San Francisco and recovered to be a serviceable starter for a year or two before being benched again for Kap. That is the closest I can get. You just don't do it.

 

It was a horrible coaching mistake from a guy I really like as a coach.

If the rumor's true that it wasn't Flores' decision to start Tua in the first place, then this might be a message he's perfectly okay with sending.

[TigerJ]

I certainly wouldn't mind if Miami ends up stuck at the starting QB position again.  Fitz is not going to last forever.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

This begins phase 2 of the Fitz cycle... acceleration of fan base and team polarization. 
 

whah ha ha ha 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

Yeah they both look amazing.  Dont know which i'd rather have but Herbert has a better surrounding cast.

 

They could both end up being franchise guys for sure.  Heard a radio guy say Burrow sitting out the rest of this season might help more than it seems now that he can observe and learn from a different perspective and next year they can protect him better and sign some WR's.

 

Josh has referred to his rookie injury and chance to watch and learn as a "blessing in disguise".  Could be same for Burrows.  Though couldn't the Bengals have done somewhat better than Ryan Finley as backup QB? 

 

I think Tua is still coming back from his hip injury and is playing a bit scared.  He may be better than he appears at present, but that just makes the decision to start him partway through the season all the more puzzling.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

If the rumor's true that it wasn't Flores' decision to start Tua in the first place, then this might be a message he's perfectly okay with sending.

 

Possible. But still bad timing IMO. If Flores doesn't think Tua is the guy he needs to let that play out so that it is overwhelmingly obvious by the time they are transacting Houston's top 10 pick. Pulling him and throwing Fitz in to put him back in next week is still a mistake in my mind even I start from a position where Flores is unconvinced that Tua is either ready, or indeed, the long term guy. There is no scenario where I can talk myself into believing that was the right decision.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

Possible. But still bad timing IMO. If Flores doesn't think Tua is the guy he needs to let that play out so that it is overwhelmingly obvious by the time they are transacting Houston's top 10 pick. Pulling him and throwing Fitz in to put him back in next week is still a mistake in my mind even I start from a position where Flores is unconvinced that Tua is either ready, or indeed, the long term guy. There is no scenario where I can talk myself into believing that was the right decision.

 

I'm with Gunner on this. 

 

I read this and thought OK, what if @BADOLBILZ is correct that the decision to pull Tua was based in part on concern for his hip?  His mobility does still seem limited, and he was taking a pounding.  But then I come to, if that's where you are, why 1) put him back the next week in NY, where the stadium has had questions raised about its turf quality and seen a number of injuries and 2) Gregg-o Williams runs a notoriously dirty ship?

 

So I got to say the sequence start-pull during game-reinsert as starter for next week makes no sense to me.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm with Gunner on this. 

 

I read this and thought OK, what if @BADOLBILZ is correct that the decision to pull Tua was based in part on concern for his hip?  His mobility does still seem limited, and he was taking a pounding.  But then I come to, if that's where you are, why 1) put him back the next week in NY, where the stadium has had questions raised about its turf quality and seen a number of injuries and 2) Gregg-o Williams runs a notoriously dirty ship?

 

So I got to say the sequence start-pull during game-reinsert as starter for next week makes no sense to me.

 

If he isn't healthy he shouldn't be out there. That is first and foremost obviously. But as you say it still doesn't get you to a point where this sequence is sensible.

[LeGOATski]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Possible. But still bad timing IMO. If Flores doesn't think Tua is the guy he needs to let that play out so that it is overwhelmingly obvious by the time they are transacting Houston's top 10 pick. Pulling him and throwing Fitz in to put him back in next week is still a mistake in my mind even I start from a position where Flores is unconvinced that Tua is either ready, or indeed, the long term guy. There is no scenario where I can talk myself into believing that was the right decision.

Well, in this rumored scenario, we're back to point where Flores is still trying to win games despite the owner's mandate to start Tua.