Buzzergate update (Again) Update: Beltran, Cora, Hinch & Luhnow (fired) for illegale sign stealing - compare to NFL & The Patsies

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, UConn James said:

I’m a Red Sox fan and I have to agree. If the reports are accurate that Cora instigated this setup in Houston and introduced whatever in Boston (there’s more investigation ongoing for that), I’d probably push for a 5-year ban. No wiggle room for this stuff. So disappointed in them / any manager or players that knew and used it and did nothing. ?

 

 

With the past history of videotaping, Goodell had better figuratively throw the book at the Pars* organization. If Belichick does not get at least a year suspension, it’s not justice. I don’t give a hoot if they can’t find anything that he ordered it. In the NCAA they call it “lack of institutional control” in punishments where the coach isn’t implicitly involved... but that s/he hadn’t done anything to ensure the kind of act didn’t happen. WRT Belichick et al and ?, there can be absolutely NO reason an employee can do this and BB sidesteps punishment.

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

[Tierlifer]

All those people on Twitter who were hating on Jomboy must be very salty today.  Dude knew what he was talking about the entire time. 
 

And any word from Verlander? He loves to police the game so much on social media you’d think he would have an opinion? Bet not. 

[Orlando Tim]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Say what?

 

NFL started testing in '87 and suspending in'89.

 

MLB put out a memo in '90 saying steroids were "strictly prohibited".   Then the rest of the 90's happened and it was obvious to every viewer the world over for YEARS that juicing was going on.  In '96 17 players hit 40 or more HRs.  MLB's response....another memo!  This one again reminded players and clubs to discourage the use of "illegal" substances.

 

'97 and McGuire hit 70.  He was found to have the steroids at his locker during the season---still nothing.

 

'99 Sosa and McGuire hot over 60.

 

What did MLB do next?  Nothing!  but 2 years later they figured they might have to do....something.  So they started random testing and penalties.....for the minor leagues only!  Same year, '01, Bonds breaks the HR record.

 

Finally, after Ken Caminiti spoke to SI and the story blew the lid off, MLB started the lamest of testing schedules....and no penalty for first time offenders!  The BALCO and 2004 came penalties for first time offenders.

 

 

So, nearly 20 years after the NFL at least started to test.  The MLB had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the acknowledgement that their lead was completely penetrated with PEDS for at least a dozens years.

 

That's some "model" for other leagues.

 

 

The NFL still has one test a year and unless you fail multiple times you do not get suspended. The MLB structure has been more strict for some time. 

[ComradeKayAdams]

42 minutes ago, Roger Goodell said:

In response to the revelation of Alex Cora's involvement in the Houston Astros' scandal in Major League Baseball, the NFL has awarded the New England Patriots a 4th round compensatory selection in the 2020 NFL Draft.

 

You sicken me, sir.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Cheating and cheaters always needs to be punished severely, it then becomes a deterrent, otherwise you are saying it’s okay to cheat at everything, that attitude is what breaks down entire societies. Those that condone cheating are in turn the same as those that cheat. 

  Most people do not see this and sadly they will not be the ones to reap that bitter crop but some person a generation or two into the future.  

[Orlando Tim]

47 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

When we catch more successful teams in the next few seasons, it will make sense 

I am confused by this comment- do you think they are punishing them because they are successful? Leagues protect the champs because it looks bad for a league when your champs are simply good at cheating. 

[JGMcD2]

25 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Say what?

 

NFL started testing in '87 and suspending in'89.

 

MLB put out a memo in '90 saying steroids were "strictly prohibited".   Then the rest of the 90's happened and it was obvious to every viewer the world over for YEARS that juicing was going on.  In '96 17 players hit 40 or more HRs.  MLB's response....another memo!  This one again reminded players and clubs to discourage the use of "illegal" substances.

 

'97 and McGuire hit 70.  He was found to have the steroids at his locker during the season---still nothing.

 

'99 Sosa and McGuire hot over 60.

 

What did MLB do next?  Nothing!  but 2 years later they figured they might have to do....something.  So they started random testing and penalties.....for the minor leagues only!  Same year, '01, Bonds breaks the HR record.

 

Finally, after Ken Caminiti spoke to SI and the story blew the lid off, MLB started the lamest of testing schedules....and no penalty for first time offenders!  The BALCO and 2004 came penalties for first time offenders.

 

 

So, nearly 20 years after the NFL at least started to test.  The MLB had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the acknowledgement that their lead was completely penetrated with PEDS for at least a dozens years.

 

That's some "model" for other leagues.

 

 

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

[CommonCents]

32 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

Sox fan, I think he will be fired before the ban is announced. I’d say lifetime as well. I can’t stand that little brat. 

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

 

 

Yeah it needs to be emphasized to those that don't follow baseball closely that the Red Sox had ALREADY been caught and penalized for cheating in 2017..........before Cora even came aboard.........so in fairness the Sox should be punished to at least the same extent.

 

And yes I think the Astros got off too easy..........they should have also been barred from international signings for multiple seasons as well.    Hitting teams with draft pick penalties looks harsh to casual fans..........but when you are drafting in the late 20's the ability to sign international prospects is much more valuable.     The Yanks have been winning for 26 straight years so in most drafts by the time they pick in round 1 they are already drafting utility infielders and relief pitching prospects or starting pitchers with blown out elbows.   About 25 of the Yankees top 30 prospects are international players.  

 

What they basically did is give Crane a chance to own it and not be devastated personnel-wise.     I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed to fire Hinch/Luhnow in order to save that international prospect signing ability.   Now if Crane can hire a good GM/manager he can spend his way out of any significant personnel consequence.     

[LabattBlue]

Good for the Houston owner(acting swiftly to fire them)...bad look for baseball.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Red Sox got slapped in 2017 for using Apple watches to relay signals and it was met with a milder penalty, but everyone was put on notice:

"Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida.  Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks."

 

If you watched the world series video from the 2017 Astros, you can clearly see the set up and where the set up was located - there is no way this was not known at the highest levels of the organization - it was in their championship video...

 

 

What really looks bad for Hinch is how he actively addressed the talk about his team cheating as nonsense and mocked the Yankees for questioning if they were cheating in the playoffs this year.   

 

And Bregman has made sly remarks about not being surprised by breaking pitches that he crushed that were basically wink-winks to his co-conspirators.

[Mr. WEO]

46 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

 

It's collectively bargained for in the NFL as well.  But the MLB never pushed for it even though their product was grossly tainted for over a dozen years. 

 

The point is that no one: owners, players, the union, or the Commissioner took any of this seriously as long as the results were a boom in league interest, so any claim that MLB is a "model" for all other sports and that they were the first to "address PED" use is laughably wrong. 

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The NFL still has one test a year and unless you fail multiple times you do not get suspended. The MLB structure has been more strict for some time. 

 

NFL:  first positive is 4 games. Each player is tested once per season minimum.  Then, every week of the season, 10 players per team are randomly tested.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[JAMIEBUF12]

3 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

To be fair, the Astros aren't really the MLB cash cow and premier team like the Pats. Now if this was the Yankees accused of this, I'm sure it would have been swept under the rug just like the Pats and the NFL.

 

I'm not surprised they were fired for this, but we're they the ones fully responsible? Did the owner know what was going on and encouraged it or just turn a blind eye to it? Also weren't the Astros just in trouble recently for providing or forging false medical records for players in trades? They also recently fired one of their other front office guys this offseason after comments he made to female reporters in the locker room  who were known to be against the team getting the former Jays closer who was suspended for beating his girlfriend/wife

Not true mlb suspended George steinbrenner owner of the Yankees.It was because Steinbrenner was suspended that the Yanks were able to build their late 90’s dynasty.Gene Michaels made very shrewd trades like the Paul O’neil trade...Johnny Bench is still banned and he was a house hold name...

[PromoTheRobot]

http://www.startribune.com/it-s-time-to-hold-astros-patriots-accountable-for-cheating/566410182/

 

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, cgg716 said:

Everyone steals signs, everyone always has, MLB basically just suspended people for being too good at something they’ve allowed for ages. And equally importantly something they can not and will not stop going forward 

Stealing signs isn't the issue, it's the use of cameras and technology to aid in the stealing and relaying of signs that's the issue. If during the game a player on the team figures out a signal or a tell (like  a pitcher tipping pitches) from the other team, that's not against the rules. Having staff using cameras to steal signs then deciding them and relaying by phone, text or other electronics to the dugout, that's the issue.

 

It's like the latest issue with the Pats. It wasn't an issue because they had someone at the game scouting trying to figure out signals from the other teams bench, it's that they were using cameras to videotape the other team so they could go back and review it later.

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

and you could say Manfred's balls are...well...juiced

I believe they reviewed the balls and have found that they have been changed, but in baseball, it was changed for everyone, where as in the NFL, it was only the Patriots using the deflated balls. If all teams used the same deflated balls it wouldn't have been an issue.

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, cgg716 said:

Exactly, when you allow the bigger picture and punish the side effect, I don’t like it 

Punishing the act of cheating is good.

[Reed83HOF]

22 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I believe they reviewed the balls and have found that they have been changed, but in baseball, it was changed for everyone, where as in the NFL, it was only the Patriots using the deflated balls. If all teams used the same deflated balls it wouldn't have been an issue.

Until the playoffs and then the balls were dead

[JGMcD2]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's collectively bargained for in the NFL as well.  But the MLB never pushed for it even though their product was grossly tainted for over a dozen years. 

 

The point is that no one: owners, players, the union, or the Commissioner took any of this seriously as long as the results were a boom in league interest, so any claim that MLB is a "model" for all other sports and that they were the first to "address PED" use is laughably wrong. 

 

NFL:  first positive is 4 games. Each player is tested once per season minimum.  Then, every week of the season, 10 players per team are randomly tested.

Look you definitely know your history here but you’re wrong on nobody pushing for it. They wanted to implement drug testing after the Pittsburgh Drug Trials in 1985. That’s an absolute fact. Seeing that it’s collectively bargained the players said no, we’re not giving that up, the league can’t just stuff it into the CBA and move on. That would cause a strike. The biggest issue for baseball were  the numerous work stoppages, so maybe folks didn’t push as hard on a tough subject like that because it would’ve led to another work stoppage but the comment that nobody pushed for it is laughably wrong. 

 

I took a class that Bud Selig taught... I’ve heard stories about the inner workings of those negotiations. There was a push for drug testing but players wouldn’t budge on it. You can’t just rip up the CBA my friend... that causes issues. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by JGMcD2

[KD in CA]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

 

The difference is the union rules baseball.  Thankfully, that's not the case in the NFL.

[Mr. WEO]

56 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Look you definitely know your history here but you’re wrong on nobody pushing for it. They wanted to implement drug testing after the Pittsburgh Drug Trials in 1985. That’s an absolute fact. Seeing that it’s collectively bargained the players said no, we’re not giving that up, the league can’t just stuff it into the CBA and move on. That would cause a strike. The biggest issue for baseball were  the numerous work stoppages, so maybe folks didn’t push as hard on a tough subject like that because it would’ve led to another work stoppage but the comment that nobody pushed for it is laughably wrong. 

 

I took a class that Bud Selig taught... I’ve heard stories about the inner workings of those negotiations. There was a push for drug testing but players wouldn’t budge on it. You can’t just rip up the CBA my friend... that causes issues. 

 

 

It took 14 years from the initial "ban" in 1990.

 

Bud Selig was another Commissioner happy to kick that can down the road because steroids saved MLB.  The public came back when those HRs started to stack up year after year.

 

It was in the best interest of no one (players, owners, union) to bring that down at that time.  Finally, when BALCO made it completely shameless for everyone, things changed---and with ease.  It didn't happen because no one wanted it to happen.  This was the ultimate stain on Selig's tenure.  If he was telling his class that he he was pushing to clean up baseball, he was BS'ing you and blaming it on the help.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[cba fan]

6 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Who would hire these guys? They are permanently tainted, no owner in their right mind will hire these guys, their careers are over in MLB. 

At least one would think as much.

I believe in second chances if they show contrition.

[JGMcD2]

Just now, cba fan said:

I believe in second chances if they show contrition.

Lunhow’s already doubling down. His statement was such a joke. He deflected blame on “players, coaches and lower level staff.” That’s the sign of a real strong leader.
 

He’s always been a pompous jerk and now it’s catching up with him. He was cold and cut throat, treated people like objects, particularly scouts. He just tried to do the same here to save his name. It’s all catching up to him... now he no longer has power and success to mask those horrible people skills. 
 

I don’t think he gets a second chance, nor does he deserve one. 

[major]

MLB does a lot of things better. Their HOF/Cooperstown is better than NFL because they only let the greats in. The NFL seems to let everyone into their HOF

[DRA3196]

I think the biggest difference between the two major sports is that Baseball has worked really hard over the years to maintain the integrity of the game. They haven't always been successful but they at least made the attempt. The NFL has barely made an attempt to acknowledge the problems within the league, let alone fix them. IMO baseball seems to still be about the game, where as the NFL is about business and entertainment and less about the integrity of the game.

[4merper4mer]

12 minutes ago, DRA3196 said:

I think the biggest difference between the two major sports is that Baseball has worked really hard over the years to maintain the integrity of the game. They haven't always been successful but they at least made the attempt. The NFL has barely made an attempt to acknowledge the problems within the league, let alone fix them. IMO baseball seems to still be about the game, where as the NFL is about business and entertainment and less about the integrity of the game.

There were different types of cheating going on and the sports were also treated differently in the press.  

 

The NFL painted itself into a corner by allowing the Patriots to cheat.  Once they let Spygate go with a wrist slap, they had to keep doubling down on their "greatness".  It was a cash cow for the big networks so lips were zipped on the Pats, steroids and the Ray Rice type stuff.  Just look at Tyreek Hill this year.  The networks say nothing.  It's disgusting.  

 

MLB has been reputed to be "dead" for decades.  The steroids were just one more nail in the coffin.  The TV money wasn't the same for the big networks because of the scheduling structure and the more local nature of broadcasts.  This, and the commies trying to promote soccer, made fertile ground for baseball bashing.

 

Good for MLB for treating the Astros like the Pats should have been treated.  And the Pats are still cheating because they understand the lay of the land.  Maybe all sports are gradually headed toward the Vince McMahon model. 

[Bferra13]

1 hour ago, major said:

MLB does a lot of things better. Their HOF/Cooperstown is better than NFL because they only let the greats in. The NFL seems to let everyone into their HOF

 

Yes sir, like Harold Baines. The consummate MLB player who did zilch to distinguish himself except play for a quarter of a century. Yet still failed to reach 3k hits or reach any other stat of any landmark value for that matter. 

[FLbills]

Took a page out of the Bill Belichick's guide "How to cheat for dummies". They will forever be known as the Houston Asterisks. 

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, cba fan said:

I believe in second chances if they show contrition.

If I’m MLB, no way in hell do these guys come back into the game, people who cheat always cheat, it’s a major character flaw with those sorts. I’m certain they can learn to say, “do you want fries with that”..

 

look at Kraft and Co. they are continuous cheaters, cheaters gonna cheat, always kick them to the curb when opportunity presents itself, otherwise you condone the act and the taint. The world needs ditch diggers too...

Edited January 14, 2020 by Don Otreply

[Billsatlastin2018]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Red Sox are next.?

 

Cora should get a double dose.

Bah-ston... City of Cheats!

 

Wouldn’t be surprised, if Cora got some tips from Billy B for this caper!

[longtimebillsfan]

15 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

To be fair, the Astros aren't really the MLB cash cow and premier team like the Pats. Now if this was the Yankees accused of this, I'm sure it would have been swept under the rug just like the Pats and the NFL.

 

I'm not surprised they were fired for this, but we're they the ones fully responsible? Did the owner know what was going on and encouraged it or just turn a blind eye to it? Also weren't the Astros just in trouble recently for providing or forging false medical records for players in trades? They also recently fired one of their other front office guys this offseason after comments he made to female reporters in the locker room  who were known to be against the team getting the former Jays closer who was suspended for beating his girlfriend/wife

Manfred had too much integrity.   The Yankees would receive the same punishment.  Steinbrenner wad banned for a year two different times.  It wasn't Manfred, but it was MLB.

 

Your cynicism is showing.

[Gordio]

15 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

All im saying is - the astro's had and continue to have a lethal lineup.  Breg, Altuve, Correa, Springer - its hard to believe that this props them up like massive amounts.  I don't feel like digging through all their splits to see if home/away over the years is that big of a discrepancy.  Maybe i will before fantasy baseball season to see if its worth knocking them down a peg, but i doubt it.  

 

 

Check out the stats from the 2017 ALCS when they played the yankees.  The difference in stats are eye popping at home compared to at Yankee Stadium.  If I am a Yankee fan, I feel very cheated as they were the best team in baseball that year & got cheated out of another WS.  

14 hours ago, cgg716 said:

The contention is simple, I don’t condone it. I’m mearly stating they allowed it, all teams have stolen signs, since forever, and MLB has basically said, hey Houston, you were really good at this thing we allowed, pay for it. Did the same with steroids 

 

Your missing the point.  Yeah teams steal signs, it is a part of baseball, Houston & Boston stole signs using technology.  

[Gordio]

7 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

 

Yes sir, like Harold Baines. The consummate MLB player who did zilch to distinguish himself except play for a quarter of a century. Yet still failed to reach 3k hits or reach any other stat of any landmark value for that matter. 

 

 

I get your point with Harold Reynolds but Baseball HOF is a bit better because there is no requirement that a certain amount need to go in every year like Football.  Some years there are only 1 or 2 inductions.  Football isn't there 5 or 6 minimum every year?  That compromises the process right there.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

16 hours ago, KD in CA said:

WOW!

 

 

p.s.  can the Mets please hire these guys for 2021?

They will go to the Red Sox where they can get away with this kind of stuff and keep their jobs. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

37 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

 

Check out the stats from the 2017 ALCS when they played the yankees.  The difference in stats are eye popping at home compared to at Yankee Stadium.  If I am a Yankee fan, I feel very cheated as they were the best team in baseball that year & got cheated out of another WS.  

 

Your missing the point.  Yeah teams steal signs, it is a part of baseball, Houston & Boston stole signs using technology.  

 

Yankees best team in 2017? They won 91 games got in as a wildcard and pitched sabathia in a game 7. I think the dodgers got cheated more than the yankees

8 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

 

Yes sir, like Harold Baines. The consummate MLB player who did zilch to distinguish himself except play for a quarter of a century. Yet still failed to reach 3k hits or reach any other stat of any landmark value for that matter. 

 

That is a curious one. 6x all star. Good postseason stats in limited games. 1 silver slugger. Was just never really the best, always pretty good. I probably wouldn't vote him in.

 

NFL has joe namath tho, who has like offensively bad stats for the majority of his career.

Edited January 14, 2020 by dneveu

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, cba fan said:

I believe in second chances if they show contrition.

I heard on MLB Channel that Hinch was planning to go on an "apology" tour this off season. This may help him find a gig in 2021. Now if we could find out how pitchers who go to Houston all of a sudden develop incredible spin rates. There are some who question the tactics, whether  it's pine tar or some other substance.

29 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

They will go to the Red Sox where they can get away with this kind of stuff and keep their jobs. 

I don't know about that. Looks like Alex Cora might be next in line for punishment.

https://nypost.com/2020/01/13/red-soxs-alex-cora-is-going-to-get-crushed-after-astros-cheating-scandal/

 

[major]

9 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

 

Yes sir, like Harold Baines. The consummate MLB player who did zilch to distinguish himself except play for a quarter of a century. Yet still failed to reach 3k hits or reach any other stat of any landmark value for that matter. 

You got me on that one. Still confused how Harold got in?

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, Gordio said:

 

 

I get your point with Harold Reynolds but Baseball HOF is a bit better because there is no requirement that a certain amount need to go in every year like Football.  Some years there are only 1 or 2 inductions.  Football isn't there 5 or 6 minimum every year?  That compromises the process right there.  

Baines is a stain on the HOF in my opinion, there are a lot of good players who aren't in and for the most part everyone gets it; this starts the banging of the drum for some of those other guys, naturally....

[C.Biscuit97]

Good for baseball. I was kinda shocked they got punished this hard.  

[Gordio]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

Yankees best team in 2017? They won 91 games got in as a wildcard and pitched sabathia in a game 7. I think the dodgers got cheated more than the yankees

 

That is a curious one. 6x all star. Good postseason stats in limited games. 1 silver slugger. Was just never really the best, always pretty good. I probably wouldn't vote him in.

 

NFL has joe namath tho, who has like offensively bad stats for the majority of his career.

 

 

So what?   The Dodgers are paper champions, they have never been able to close the deal with this current roster even though they have had the best record in baseball over that span.  Kershaw is the poster boy for this.  Great regular season pitcher, horrible post season pitcher.  Yankees would of beat them in the WS.  & believe me I am no Yankees fan, been a die hard mets fan for the past 40 years.