John Brown failure to toe drag

[TroutDog]

42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.

I understand and agree with that but thread after thread about specific plays belies the fact that is was a failure from top to bottom as opposed to one simple failure. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

Your expectations are too high. Youre pretty much going to get one or two ugly plays from every player in the NFL every game.

 

I'd like to see you defend this claim with evidence.
Here's a list of the top 16 WR on yards in the NFL this year.  Can you describe some of those 1-2 ugly plays per game from each of them?

 

 

Just now, TroutDog said:

I understand and agree with that but thread after thread about specific plays belies the fact that is was a failure from top to bottom as opposed to one simple failure. 

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

[TroutDog]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

That’s exactly what my initial post said. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

That’s exactly what my initial post said. 

 

I was focused on the "all these threads about specific plays is kind of sad" aspect.

[Ramza86]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd like to see you defend this claim with evidence.
Here's a list of the top 16 WR on yards in the NFL this year.  Can you describe some of those 1-2 ugly plays per game from each of them?

 

 

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

 

I dont have to defend it. I already know it, why would I take the time to convince you?

 

If you dont believe me then look it up yourself.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

I dont have to defend it. I already know it, why would I take the time to convince you?

 

Oh, I dunno - maybe because you're posting on a public message board therefore presumably have some interest in being believed outside of your own skin?

I mean, if you don't have such interest, why even post then?

 

We'll take that as a baseless assertion with no evidence to back it up.

 

 

[TroutDog]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was focused on the "all these threads about specific plays is kind of sad" aspect.

I guess my point was that it would be more interesting (at least for me) to discuss how we collapsed in the manner we did. I didn’t see it driven by a specific play and, to be honest, wouldn’t know how to start an intelligent thread on it...other than it was maddening and frustrating  to watch. 
 

Loving this team the way we all do, it was such a massive letdown and the team and us, as fans, deserved a hell of a lot more.

[Ramza86]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, I dunno - maybe because you're posting on a public message board therefore presumably have some interest in being believed outside of your own skin?

I mean, if you don't have such interest, why even post then?

 

We'll take that as a baseless assertion with no evidence to back it up.

 

 

 

Im not trying to convince anyone. I made a statement. 

 

If you dont believe it you are more than welcome to look it up. 

 

Thats usually what I do when I find something hard to believe. 

 

Lazy boy.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

The jump makes no sense there.  Maybe he thought it was going to be behind him and jumped to try and pull it down and land on his back but it screwed up his space along the sideline.  Another crucial mistake in a game full of them.

[CaptnCoke11]

He definitely mistimed that throw.. His feet left the ground before the ball got there.  Should of been a fairly routine sideline toe tap for an NFL receiver 

[SCBills]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

• Report post
•  

Posted just now

 

 

Great receivers make mistakes sometimes. Same with playmakers, even at key moments. It has to do with being human beings. It doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.

 

John Brown is both a great receiver and a playmaker. But yeah, this was a mistake.

 

He's a #1 receiver. He was 21st in yardage and tied for 24th in TDs despite the fact that they rested him the last week of the season, and he played on a team that threw the 24th most passes in the league, putting them in the bottom nine of the league. He's a #1. No, he's not a "true #1," but there are only about 6 or 7 of those guys in the league anyway.

 

Yes, we need to upgrade the #3 receiver position on this team. No, Brown is not the problem in any way.

 

He's a #1, but not a true #1?  What does that even mean?

 

A #1 is a guy who can dominate his match up and take over a game.  John Brown is very good, but he doesn't do that. 

 

He's a very good #2, and that's not a knock.  New England's passing game struggled without Gronk because they don't have a number 1 WR either.  Edelman is in the John Brown group. 

[dave mcbride]

43 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Which makes it more imperative to run a better route than the lazy stutter step.

Like I said, good players make plays. Peters made one. He's a better player than Brown, although Brown is good too.

[DuckyBoys]

57 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley had career years in 2019.  I don't expect more out of them. To be fair both lived up to what I though they could bring 110%  .  I didn't believe John Brown could stay healthy for 16 games and certainly not with the volume he handled.   Neither of those guys is much more than a competent NFL wr . Bills need a difference maker  A player that can overcome tight coverage/win 50/50 throws/shuck press immediately make some plays most player cannot.  Asking Josh Allen to turn those guys into Jerry Rice and Steve Largent seems like a ridiculous proposition.  I'm pretty certain Brandon Beane knows it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

John Brown and Cole Beasley had career years in 2019.  I don't expect more out of them. To be fair both lived up to what I though they could bring 110%  .  I didn't believe John Brown could stay healthy for 16 games and certainly not with the volume he handled.   Neither of those guys is much more than a competent NFL wr . Bills need a difference maker  A player that can overcome tight coverage/win 50/50 throws/shuck press immediately make some plays most player cannot.  Asking Josh Allen to turn those guys into Jerry Rice and Steve Largent seems like a ridiculous proposition.  I'm pretty certain Brandon Beane knows it.

 

We're in complete agreement on your conclusion.  The Bills need a difference maker at WR or TE.  I would call Beasley and Brown both very good WR, but neither are difference makers.

 

One can make an argument on John Brown for career year, but I think it's important to note he had close to as much production in 2015 as a #2. 

Cole Beasley arguably had a better year in 2016 in Dallas - more yards, more YPG, more yards/target. 

 

Beasley didn't mention plans to work with Josh off season and neither did Brown - Beasley has property in Texas and Brown has a home (I think) in Florida.  But I hope they will.  In particular, it could be seen in training camp that Beasley was determined to persuade Josh to throw with more touch and anticipation, and succeeded in a TC/practice situation.  I'm sure Josh will continue to work on that but it would also help a lot (even if he doesn't train with Josh) if Beasley would set his Juggs machine on "stun" and just accept that under pressure Josh is gonna gun it at times, and he has to up his bullet-handling game if he can. 

 

I do wonder if either of them see opportunities to become stronger and more physical to break free of press coverage, and will work on that.

[cba fan]

27 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Like I said, good players make plays. Peters made one. He's a better player than Brown, although Brown is good too.

Peters was beat by the Allen perfect throw which is a TD with a normal toe drag WR.

[nedboy7]

Oh cool!  Today we are bashing JB?  Awesome. Who’s tomorrow?  

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, cba fan said:

Peters was beat by the Allen perfect throw which is a TD with a normal toe drag WR.

Elite corners have catch-up speed. Peters has it. There is a reason why Peters, a genuinely bad person, went in the first round despite his many transgressions and remains coveted by good teams trying to win a Super Bowl despite the aura of bad vibes that always surrounds him. Good players make plays, and he's as good as anyone, talent-wise.  

[gobills1212]

Why continue to torture yourself?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Im not trying to convince anyone. I made a statement. 

 

You made a statement on a message board.  That is prima face evidence you're trying to persuade someone, or just stay home and talk to yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

If you dont believe it you are more than welcome to look it up. Thats usually what I do when I find something hard to believe. 

 

You just tell me where you looked up that 1-2 bad play per game by every player stat - provide a link or a source - and I'll do just that.

I'll use my Crystal Ball here: you won't, because you can't.

 

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Lazy boy.

 

@Chandler#81 has a gift for predicting how things will work out.  He has just telepathically shared his gift with me.

[peterpan]

13 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

So I’m rewatching the game, and John Brown should have played that reception better.  Could Allen have thrown it a tad sooner, sure. However, Brown took his feet off the ground when I don’t think he really needed to.  Would have been First and Goal at the 3 yd line.

 

 

Clearly John Brown INTENDED to get his feet down.  And just like in the fair catch that wasn't thread, intentions are what matters, according some posters  

 

Shoulda been ruled a catch anyways, by those standards.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

Oh cool!  Today we are bashing JB?  Awesome. Who’s tomorrow?  

 

Just a question here: is it possible to discuss a play and a player in a critical manner without "bashing"?

 

To me, bashing is mindless criticism: "he sucks, he can't catch a cold, he's awful" blah blah with no evidence or reasoning or examples behind it.

I'm not seeing a lot of that here.

 

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

He was facing a corner that was without question a top 5 CB in 2019 on that play. Other guys make plays too. 

 

Right, and that frames it very nicely.  John Brown is without question, a very good WR.  Very good route runner, very good hands, good blocker when asked, willing to do whatever to help the team.  But when he's facing a corner that's a top 5 or even top 10 CB, he doesn't seem able to consistently win those matchups and make plays.  He does sometimes - witness how he undressed Gilmore against NE.  Brown could have run a better route against Peters, no question, but he'd been held down all game at that point, no guarantees.

 

It seems to me that if we're going to win passing matchups with teams that have top-10 or top-5 CB, we need a WR who can win those matchups or make contested catches regardless.

[Maine-iac]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd like to see you defend this claim with evidence.
Here's a list of the top 16 WR on yards in the NFL this year.  Can you describe some of those 1-2 ugly plays per game from each of them?

 

 

 

If your argument is "plenty of blame to go around", I can not disagree

8 or those top 10 were not even in the playoffs.  I guess the Saints with Brees and Thomas scored one more point than us and that's something.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

8 or those top 10 were not even in the playoffs.  I guess the Saints with Brees and Thomas scored one more point than us and that's something.

 

The question is not were they in the playoffs.

The question is to the OP's contention that every player, specifically every NFL WR, makes 1-2 "ugly plays per game"

 

We can acknowledge that every year, good and even great players fail to make the playoffs, correct?

[GoBills808]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Hill isn't a guy who "extends catch radius," a phrase that makes no sense by the way. He's a guy who gets open a lot with his speed and shiftiness. But he doesn't fit your rules here.

 

Sure he occasionally jumps for a ball. So has John Brown.

 

Know whose catch radius extend beyond the length of his arms? Octopuses? Guys using long sticks with stickum on 'em. That's about it. Guys with long arms have longer reaches. Nobody catches stuff beyond their reach, though. And for sure not Tyreek Hill.

 

Nor does Tyreek Hill "fight through defenders" or anyway no more than John Brown or most smaller guys. Hill is faster and better than Brown, but he's not the kind of guy your rules describe. You include Tyreek Hill because you like him, which is fine, but he doesn't fit your own arbitrary qualifications. He's just good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

^this is how you make yourself a target and fight for a ball through the defender. Brown doesn't do this vs baltimore and we lose shot at tying game

 

 

^this is giving your QB the chance to make a bad throw by extending your catch radius. I don't believe Brown makes this catch with regularity and he certainly doesn't score here

 

 

^this is coming back and fighting through defenders, again, to present a target for your QB. 

 

 

^another example of extending catch radius and fighting through defenders. John Brown never makes this catch

[ngbills]

Brown should have gotten those toes down no question. My best guess is he just mistimed his jump...though he is going full speed and has to slow down to make the catch which also throws off the timing. But he needs to make that play. 

 

This was not a perfect pass as too many people are saying. Watch the entire play- link below. Brown timing is likely off because he immediately sees a TD and wants the ball. You can see him raise his hand as he passes the numbers and if thrown then we have an easy TD. Allen needs to throw that ball sooner and not directly to the sideline. A TD pass, not an out of bounds play. No excuse for Brown not making that catch, but should not have needed that level of difficulty. I would bet that you have Allen and Brown watching this tape rate now they both say that. 

 

 

[ILBillsfan]

Brown is a zone guy beater.  The bills lack a man vs man beater that wins 50/50 balls 

 

this may be the narrative that people saying the bills need a true number one Wr

 

id like to see them sign Green to an incentive contract and the draft Higgins who’s frame can allow some NFL muscle in it and fit right into a Green mold.  He can fight for those 50/50 balls and get them

[DuckyBoys]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We're in complete agreement on your conclusion.  The Bills need a difference maker at WR or TE.  I would call Beasley and Brown both very good WR, but neither are difference makers.

 

One can make an argument on John Brown for career year, but I think it's important to note he had close to as much production in 2015 as a #2. 

Cole Beasley arguably had a better year in 2016 in Dallas - more yards, more YPG, more yards/target. 

 

Beasley didn't mention plans to work with Josh off season and neither did Brown - Beasley has property in Texas and Brown has a home (I think) in Florida.  But I hope they will.  In particular, it could be seen in training camp that Beasley was determined to persuade Josh to throw with more touch and anticipation, and succeeded in a TC/practice situation.  I'm sure Josh will continue to work on that but it would also help a lot (even if he doesn't train with Josh) if Beasley would set his Juggs machine on "stun" and just accept that under pressure Josh is gonna gun it at times, and he has to up his bullet-handling game if he can. 

 

I do wonder if either of them see opportunities to become stronger and more physical to break free of press coverage, and will work on that.

 

I think asking them to get stronger and more physical might be a bit much  Beasley's game is short area quickness and he's not a big guy.  Brown is downfield speed and again not only not a big guy but small frame.  John Brown assumed a role he's not a physical match for and he did as best of a job as he could.  Better we allow/put them in a better position to succeed which means bigger more prototypical wrs on the outside.  I'm certain Brandon Beane knows this, we just have to hope he hits again in FA/draft to address it.  They had good success with those two so maybe he can upgrade yet again.

[BuffaloBaumer]

It was so obvious the second I saw it. A perfect pass and a huge mistake by Brown

[Bing Bong]

15 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

Uh yeah OK.    1060 yards, tons of clutch 3rd down conversions in 15 games on only 115 targets and virtually none of it in garbage time.

 

Elite numbers dude.  Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

That's not elite. 1K should be the expectation. That's Stevie Johnson good. Rookie Kelvin Benjamin good.

1 hour ago, ILBillsfan said:

Brown is a zone guy beater.  The bills lack a man vs man beater that wins 50/50 balls 

 

this may be the narrative that people saying the bills need a true number one Wr

 

id like to see them sign Green to an incentive contract and the draft Higgins who’s frame can allow some NFL muscle in it and fit right into a Green mold.  He can fight for those 50/50 balls and get them

That's a good way to put it. I don't see him beat the top CBs with any consistency. Which is exactly what WR1s are for.

Edited January 8, 2020 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[nedboy7]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a question here: is it possible to discuss a play and a player in a critical manner without "bashing"?

 

To me, bashing is mindless criticism: "he sucks, he can't catch a cold, he's awful" blah blah with no evidence or reasoning or examples behind it.

I'm not seeing a lot of that here.

 

 

Right, and that frames it very nicely.  John Brown is without question, a very good WR.  Very good route runner, very good hands, good blocker when asked, willing to do whatever to help the team.  But when he's facing a corner that's a top 5 or even top 10 CB, he doesn't seem able to consistently win those matchups and make plays.  He does sometimes - witness how he undressed Gilmore against NE.  Brown could have run a better route against Peters, no question, but he'd been held down all game at that point, no guarantees.

 

It seems to me that if we're going to win passing matchups with teams that have top-10 or top-5 CB, we need a WR who can win those matchups or make contested catches regardless.

It seems every day we are bashing players. Maybe not you. But to argue if JB is a #1 receiver is not intelligent discussion.  There is mostly emotional negative takes on players and the coaching.  Of course there is rational and educated takes. But the thread doesn’t reflect that overall. 

[Success]

He's almost a 1, imo.  If we do get someone who most would agree is a true #1, it would be pretty incredible, since I'd put Brown near the top of the #2 list around the league.  Then, w/ Beasley as a 3, and Knox having a year under his belt...this offense could be really exciting.

 

Imagine having an offense that scores in the 20's or 30's every game, if the defense stays as good as it was this past year.  This could really be a top team in the league.

[Pokebball]

16 hours ago, billsfan714 said:

I was thinking the exact thing as it happened.    A great receiver has the awareness to drag the toes, churn up the black rubber and probably fall forward, but makes the sacrifice of the body to make plays.   Just another example of the O needing better playmakers.   Its what separates great from average.    Playmakers make plays at key moments.

I too was frustrated on that throw.  In the NE v Titans game Saturday, Brady threw a pass to the sidelines to Edelman.  The pass was quite a bit out of bounds and Edelman had no chance to make the catch in bounds.  Edelman still made a leap to catch the pass and was literally horizontal when he crossed the side lines.  He couldn't even reach the ball with a finger, but still made all the attempt he could to make that catch.  I thought, man, the Bills need a WR like that.

[ShakAttack]

It’s amazing how many huge missed opportunities we could dissect from this game and to think, if we just had any ONE of them, we probably win. 
 

I know it’s easy to say this about a playoff game but I genuinely cannot remember a game with more missed opportunities than this one... and you can even add the top 3 controversial calls / non-calls to the list... any one of those go our way instead and we likely win as well.

 

yeah, Texans had their dropped picks as missed opportunities but hell we had one of those too, and I wasn’t even thinking of that one yet, but if we come away with that pick we are up at least 20-0 and game is likely out of reach. 
 

SIGH...

[Maine-iac]

 

 

The number 1 receiver argument is almost as good as the "franchise" QB argument.  Speaking of which when are we going to dust that off again?  Make more plays than the other team and win games.  Just because Brown doesn't out muscle guys like Hopkins doesn't mean he isn't a play maker.  Give him that ball 10 times and he'll catch it and get his feet in 9 times out of ten.  Give this defense a 3rd and 18 and they'll stop them 9 times out of ten.  Put Milano and a DB in the backfield and we should have the sack 9 times out of 10.  There were too many plays that were made most of the year that weren't made Saturday.  Brown will be back making plays next year and probably put up even bigger numbers next year ......... whatever you want to call him.

[CheshireCT]

one play in isolation proves nothing. No player, no human being executes anything 100%, it’s all about the overall

 

Also, Game is over, let it go....

[elroy16]

This and the failure of three people to block Cunningham are the two plays that drive me most crazy. Neither were hard plays, both were just absolute brain farts in the worst possible times. 

[Mr. WEO]

this again...

[John from Riverside]

There were some throws in the game Josh Allen made that had someone just MADE A PLAY then we win.....simple as that

 

This was one of them

 

That is why we need more playmakers

[blacklabel]

19 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I had the game on mute and I still wanted Booger to stfu

 

I had to turn it off pretty quickly as well, the commentary, not the game. According to Booger, every play was the result of the other team breaking down in some fashion. "Great run by Singletary!" "Well, Joe, again, poor tackling, look at this guy over here, he's 15 yards away and misses the tackle, he should be ashamed!" I just can't stand commentary in general anymore. 

[947]

Even in youth football, we coach to never leave your feet to catch a ball when you don't need to. There's zero reason Brown needed to jump to catch a chest-high ball. If I had an 8th grader do that, I'd have been flipping out. Really bad play by Brown.