Duke Williams vs Denver

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

You basically have John Brown as our #1 target, Cole Beasley as our #2, and a bunch of guys who are limited in skills.

 

Andre Roberts is a pretty good return guy, but is below average on everything else required from a WR.

Isaiah McKenzie is quick and runs nice gadget plays, but doesn't have great hands and his fumble issues make him risky as a returner.

Robert Foster is a proven deep threat, but doesn't really do anything else well and still often struggles make plays on the ball.

Duke Williams is big and has good hands, but he's also really slow and struggles to get open.

 

When you have a group like this, the coaching staff is forced to activate/deactivate players based on gameplan.  

Roberts gets called up regularly, because we must have a KR/PR each week.  McKenzie is getting preference over Foster, because we are having more success with jet-sweeps than deep passes.  That has left Williams as the odd-man out, because his skill-set can be duplicated by one of the tight ends.

 

 

Nice post !  : )
 

I think it is situational football by Daboll.

and developing Allen.
Bills have a set of WRS to pull from.
 Roberts Mac and Duke and then Foster are interchangeable depending on game plan.
 And Allen needs to have chemistry with all of them some how as well.

2 minutes ago, Codyny13 said:

All about special teams. Gotta contribute when you’re on the bottom of the depth chart. Foster plays teams.

Point taken !

[Bronxbomber21]

It just doesn't make sense though Duke gets a game winning TD then a week and a half later hes not on the active roster

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bronxbomber21

[Maybe Someday]

I've been assuming there's a mental aspect missing with Foster and Duke. They have to be able to read the defense and adjust their routes so they are where Josh expects them to be.

 

If you don't know what you're doing you don't play. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Halloween Land said:

I hope he's active this Sunday but I doubt it, the coaching staff seems to be stubborn at times. 

 

Maybe they see him in practice the rest of the week

[Augie]

I wonder who will be next year’s “last WR/fan favorite”. This seems to happen every year. 

[bmur66]

Duke may be injured. I think he will reappear soon. 

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

Duke Williams continues to be the 6th best WR on the team behind Brown, Beasley, McKenzie, Roberts and Foster. 

 

And only 5 are active on game day. 

 

Duke starting to look like he will join the ranks of Da'rick Rodgers, Brandon Reilly, Naaman Roosevelt, Dezmin Lewis, Kolby Listenbee and many others of fan-obsessed, marginal to sub-standard NFL WR talent to spend time with the Bills.

 

I think it all dates back to Don Beebe, who had a decent NFL career but was way overvalued by Bills fans. He had 164 receptions for the Bills in 6 years, never had more than 40 and capped out ta 554 yards. 

Let me ask you: How much value would place to have Don Beebe in his prime on this team right now? I know I'd take that speed and Josh's arm.

[atlbillsfan1975]

His own position coach called him slow. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

Duke may be injured. I think he will reappear soon. 

 

I could be wrong, but  I think it would be a No-no for the Bills if he is injured and on the 53 but not showing up on the injury report.

 

 

1 hour ago, Codyny13 said:

All about special teams. Gotta contribute when you’re on the bottom of the depth chart. Foster plays teams.

 

Duke plays teams also.  But he has a more generic role that is interchangeable with several guys playing teams.

 

Foster has been being used as the Gunner, which his speed allows him to do.

[BruceVilanch]

Duke is the new Darick Rogers

[Dopey]

11 minutes ago, Bronxbomber21 said:

It just doesn't make sense though Duke gets a game winning TD then a week and a half hes not on the active roster

Here's why I trust the staff  and why it makes sense:

4 games pre-Duke:

We avg. 19 points per game and 225.75 passing yds per game

 

3 games with Duke:

We avg. 19.33 points per game and 181 passing yds per game

 

3 games since Duke has been a healthy scratch:

We avg. 25.6 points per game and 227.3 passing yds per game

 

Duke got his chance. He scored a TD. We still only scored 14 points that game. Overall his presence hasn't helped like some thought it would. Scoring went up by only .33 per game from the previous 3 games and passing yds went DOWN by over 44 yds per game with him in the lineup. Duke then sits and scoring goes up by over 6 points per game and passing yds go up by over 46 yds per game. Seems the passing game was better both pre and post Duke. 

[fansince88]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

thats what my eyes tell me. dude pulls the ball in regardless.
 I am a Duke Watcher  lol

majic 8 ball says no ?

this 110 %

 hurts me to say it though

Because I said it? I kid... but really, they are building a trust. I have to wonder when Pats traded Bledso to the Bills and started this kid that wasnt even heard of how long did it take the fans to begin to trust thst "process" for the lack of a better term? Now many years later and they have a ton of rings and Championships to show for it. Now because they trust the franchise when they cut this guy and pick up thst one they say, "ok, they know what they are doing". I want to be there as a fan base. They are sucking me in. What's next?

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

that speed though is not translating into any separation. 
 

I’d rather have the size and a guy who can out-physical and high point the ball. 

 

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

As opposed to keeping a WR who has speed but cant track a ball in Robert Foster because he plays special teams (which gave up AWEFUL plays Sunday)

 

Duke blocks for the run

Duke catches the ball

Duke high points balls

 

Play Duke

 

 

The talking points sheet making the rounds.

 

Anyway, if all of this was true, he wouldn't be where he is on the depth chart on a team millimeters deep at WR talent.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Halloween Land said:

I hope he's active this Sunday but I doubt it, the coaching staff seems to be stubborn at times. 

 

Agree certainly fans posting on a message board who don't view practice, game film, are sitting in on meetings know much more than the coaches.

 

Maybe Williams will be active this week, maybe not. But do think the coaches are in a better position than a bunch of fanatics obsessed with a player.

[Meatloaf63]

4 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

Foster did not get any offensive snaps vs. Miami so he would have to take snaps away from the other 4. 

 

Having only played in 3 games, made 6 receptions and played about 120 snaps, to assert that he blocks, catches and high points the ball are merely conjecture. 

 

Then you didn’t watch the plays he got...

4 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree certainly fans posting on a message board who don't view practice, game film, are sitting in on meetings know much more than the coaches.

 

Maybe Williams will be active this week, maybe not. But do think the coaches are in a better position than a bunch of fanatics obsessed with a player.

You’re right, these coaches never make a judgment mistake. Just ask a Peterman ....

[LABILLBACKER]

I'm tired of waiting around for Foster to produce. I think that experiment is over. Not taking advantage of Duke's redzone skills is just plain stupid. There's plenty of underperforming players to have Duke replace. He's literally played 1.5 games and looked great. It takes this staff so damn long to make what seems to us easy decisions (Peterman,  Zay). Real head scratcher?

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by LABILLBACKER

[WideNine]

5 hours ago, jwhit34 said:

Duke Williams continues to be the 6th best WR on the team behind Brown, Beasley, McKenzie, Roberts and Foster. 

 

And only 5 are active on game day. 

 

Duke starting to look like he will join the ranks of Da'rick Rodgers, Brandon Reilly, Naaman Roosevelt, Dezmin Lewis, Kolby Listenbee and many others of fan-obsessed, marginal to sub-standard NFL WR talent to spend time with the Bills.

 

I think it all dates back to Don Beebe, who had a decent NFL career but was way overvalued by Bills fans. He had 164 receptions for the Bills in 6 years, never had more than 40 and capped out ta 554 yards. 

 

If marginal and sub-standard means productive when given the chance in actual games, blocking on the edges, high pointing balls, winning contested throws, and scoring TDs, then I do like marginal WRs over track guys that rarely produce when given multiple games and reps to show up.

 

Count me among the delusional that want to see more production out of our WR positions. Other than Brown I think there is plenty of marginal and sub-standard getting the nod to start each week.

 

There is room to explore other personnel options on this roster, not sure why he is in Daboll's dog house.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dopey]

4 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

If marginal and sub-standard means productive when given the chance in actual games, blocking on the edges, high pointing balls, winning contested throws, and scoring TDs, then I do like marginal WRs over track guys that rarely produce when given multiple games and reps to show up.

 

Count me among the delusional that want to see more production out of our WR positions. Other than Brown I think there is plenty of marginal and sub-standard getting the nod to start each week.

 

There is room to explore other personnel options on this roster, not sure why he is in Daboll's dog house.

 

 

 

 

 

They did explore him as an option He had his chance and our scoring didn't improve, but passing #'s sank. He sits again, scoring goes up and passing #'s drastically improve. Our passing game was better with Zay in there. Check the #'s. I put them in a previous post. You say he's a good edge blocker, but the rushing #'s dropped when Duke played. By a lot.

Pre Duke rushing   avg per game: 147.25

While Duke played avg per game: 108

Post Duke rushing avg per game:  124.6

Passing numbers dropped by a lot, as did rushing numbers when Duke was in. He then sits and those numbers go up, by a lot. He had his chance and the offense went south while he played. Both passing and rushing. Isn't it easier to actually be open rather than have to fight for the ball cuz you can't get separation? He needs work on run blocking, getting separation from the line of scrimmage without help from a running start and if he's gonna contribute, he really needs to work on ST play. Right now he's just a big slow WR. We have TE's for that. The numbers tell an interesting story, but as others here say, "It takes this staff so damn long to make what seems to us fans easy decisions"  or "there is room to explore other personnel options on this roster"(even though they already did).

[JoPoy88]

Every week: Duke inactive.

 

Every week, several threads: “brah Duke should be activated. Obviously I know more than the coaches who see his gimpy ass every day in practice where he can’t get separation from a 4th string corner”

Edited November 21, 2019 by JoPoy88

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Here's why I trust the staff  and why it makes sense:

4 games pre-Duke:

We avg. 19 points per game and 225.75 passing yds per game

 

3 games with Duke:

We avg. 19.33 points per game and 181 passing yds per game

 

3 games since Duke has been a healthy scratch:

We avg. 25.6 points per game and 227.3 passing yds per game

 

Duke got his chance. He scored a TD. We still only scored 14 points that game. Overall his presence hasn't helped like some thought it would. Scoring went up by only .33 per game from the previous 3 games and passing yds went DOWN by over 44 yds per game with him in the lineup. Duke then sits and scoring goes up by over 6 points per game and passing yds go up by over 46 yds per game. Seems the passing game was better both pre and post Duke. 

 

You may trust this staff, but I am still skeptical in regards to their ability to judge receiving talent - We are not that far removed from Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones. Brown was a proven commodity before coming to the Bills.

 

Your rushing analogy makes no sense - correlation is not causation for example:

Against the Browns we had a combined 56 yards rushing for all our backs, but Duke was not in the game. The ONLY possible explanation is that we lacked the impact of having  Duke's blocking on the edges?

 

In regards to total rushing yards, Daboll throws darts at a board deciding on how often this team is going to run the ball and the number of rushing yards has nothing to do with the fact that Duke is a better blocker on the edges than our smurfs. 

 

Duke has only been targeted 7 times - he has caught 6 of those for 58 yards and a score. You have to be used to see if you can be useful, and this staff gives way more opportunities to some to prove they suck than others. I assume there has to be more to the story, and it may simply be a numbers game with the personnel packages they want to run, but I am not going to say the kid can't ball.

 

Titans Duke 4 targets 4 completions 29 yards and TD

Miami 1st divisional game Duke targeted once - complete for 23 yards

Eagles Duke 2 targets - completion 1 for 6 yards

 

 

 

 

[billsbackto81]

I kinda feel Foster and Roberts are making it difficult for Duke to get in the game.  Foster (the Alabama favorite) suits up because I guess they feel sooner or later he and Josh will connect on some deep shots, though I wont hold my breath. Roberts the (ST player) is active because of his return ability but Roberts the (WR) is pretty much M.I.A .  

 

It would have been nice to have Duke in the line up the last 2 games where I've noticed our Red Zone TD % has taken a hit and we've settled for FG's instead.  Personally I'd sit Foster. Don't know whether he isn't fully healthy or just doesn't have it this year. Roberts is just as good of a deep threat at this point. Smoke will be blanketed by Harris this week opening up opportunities for others like Beasley, Knox and Duke if active. 

 

Duke provides that big body in the intermediate game that can shield DB's and high point Joshs' elevated throws, especially in the RZ.   

[SmokinES3]

8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

WHAT IS THE OBSESSION

Size. Hands. A true red zone threat. (The closest thing we have anyway)

[Inigo Montoya]

 

I'm not sure I see the benefit of another "speed guy" like Foster in the line up.  If you could point to one long ball a speed guy has completed this year I'd love to watch the replay.  Josh hasn't hit a long throw all year.  The closest thing to a long ball was Brown's first TD last week and Josh threw that one on a rope. 

 

Maybe this is the week that Josh finally drops it right into the arms of a streaking Brown, Roberts, or Foster 50 yards down the field.  I sure hope so.  More than likely though, it isn't.

 

Whereas having another possession receiver (Duke) to make a contested catch  8-12 yards down the field and move the sticks, and be a solid red zone target, seems to be worth more right now with the type of offense we are running and the way Josh is throwing the deep ball (poorly).

 

Just my humble opinion...

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Inigo Montoya

[JoPoy88]

Idk...maybe Duke just isn’t very good. 
 

maybe some of the resident all-22 tape heads can help us on this because is hard to see if Duke is getting open from the broadcast angle. 
 

Either way, I trust McD and the coaches more than some random Duke stan on this message board.

[Laughing Coffin]

It’s always the 54th man that just so happens to be better than the other 53 lol

[JoPoy88]

10 minutes ago, Laughing Coffin said:

It’s always the 54th man that just so happens to be better than the other 53 lol

it’s funny like that right? Duke is getting the backup QB treatment around here by some of these posters that know nothing about football. Most popularest guy in the room - Duke ‘never done nithin in the NFL’ Williams. Fan favorite, apparently.

 

these are the people that look at height weight and 40-time and demand that guy get reps. It’s so, so dumb and it will never stop. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by JoPoy88

[Dr.Sack]

IMHO healthy Foster > healthy Duke.

 

Foster & Duke both are extremely frustrating as they’ve both have now had proven injury issues, and questionable all around WR traits, from football IQ, & ability. There is a huge difference between a top tier NFL WR like John Brown and those guys. Brown brings the complete package. Duke appears to be a body frame catcher unable to create his own separation. Foster appears to simply have blazing straight line speed. They are players that have to be schemes into the offense play. It’s better to have WRs who can fit into any offensive play. 

[Halloween Land]

13 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Stubborn all the way to a 7-3 record

Maybe not stubborn this year, but the whole Nathan Peterman obsession was not good. 

[Captain Hindsight]

1 hour ago, Halloween Land said:

Maybe not stubborn this year, but the whole Nathan Peterman obsession was not good. 

He started half a game, was pulled for the rest of the season (except injury) and then was benched after one half starting the next year. Started one more game when he was the only one standing, was promptly cut

 

The "Obsession" last 4 starts, 2 due to injury and he only finished one game he started and was cut days later. Think Bills fan thought it was linger because it was so bad, but 1.5 years for a 5th round pick who looked excellent in PS, is really not that long

[C.Biscuit97]

17 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

WHAT IS THE OBSESSION

Duke is an awesome name!  I mean it would be great if we had a bigger receiver who was good.  But we do get obsessed with players who just might not be good enough to play in the nfl. (Mike Jasper, that wr from Nebraska, that dude from Miami of Ohio, Jeff Tuel - he had a td drive in a preseason game!). 

11 hours ago, Dopey said:

Here's why I trust the staff  and why it makes sense:

4 games pre-Duke:

We avg. 19 points per game and 225.75 passing yds per game

 

3 games with Duke:

We avg. 19.33 points per game and 181 passing yds per game

 

3 games since Duke has been a healthy scratch:

We avg. 25.6 points per game and 227.3 passing yds per game

 

Duke got his chance. He scored a TD. We still only scored 14 points that game. Overall his presence hasn't helped like some thought it would. Scoring went up by only .33 per game from the previous 3 games and passing yds went DOWN by over 44 yds per game with him in the lineup. Duke then sits and scoring goes up by over 6 points per game and passing yds go up by over 46 yds per game. Seems the passing game was better both pre and post Duke. 

That’s a very simplistic way to look at things.  There are a lot of other factors to why those numbers look different.

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

You may trust this staff, but I am still skeptical in regards to their ability to judge receiving talent - We are not that far removed from Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones. Brown was a proven commodity before coming to the Bills.

 

Your rushing analogy makes no sense - correlation is not causation for example:

Against the Browns we had a combined 56 yards rushing for all our backs, but Duke was not in the game. The ONLY possible explanation is that we lacked the impact of having  Duke's blocking on the edges?

 

In regards to total rushing yards, Daboll throws darts at a board deciding on how often this team is going to run the ball and the number of rushing yards has nothing to do with the fact that Duke is a better blocker on the edges than our smurfs. 

 

Duke has only been targeted 7 times - he has caught 6 of those for 58 yards and a score. You have to be used to see if you can be useful, and this staff gives way more opportunities to some to prove they suck than others. I assume there has to be more to the story, and it may simply be a numbers game with the personnel packages they want to run, but I am not going to say the kid can't ball.

 

Titans Duke 4 targets 4 completions 29 yards and TD

Miami 1st divisional game Duke targeted once - complete for 23 yards

Eagles Duke 2 targets - completion 1 for 6 yards

 

 

 

 

The staff has brought in a wr on pace for 90 receptions and 1300 yds along with another on pace for 68 receptions and 718 yds. Sure, Brown was a proven commodity, what's that go to do with anything? Beane tried to get him the year before. Even the best gm's out there miss on a few, but it looks like they fixed it to me. It's ok to let the Kelvin thing go. If you're looking for the perfect GM, you'll never be happy. So, yes I trust them. 

 

Instead of picking 1 game to establish Duke can run block, I presented numbers that showed a trend when Duke got the call. Passing numbers way down AND rushing numbers way down. It is what it is, regardless of the Browns game. Can you explain the trend? Four games pre Duke, almost 148 a game on the ground. With Duke, 108 per game on the ground. Post Duke, 124.6 on the ground. Again it is what it is. My analogy is not based on 1 game, but a trend with Duke playing vs. without Duke.

 

Maybe, just maybe Duke wasn't getting the targets cuz he wasn't open. Why would you throw to a wr that is not open when you can throw to an open wr? Because he's big and can fight for it?! Passing numbers went way down with Duke in the lineup compared to Pre and Post Duke. If he was getting open, he would have had more chances. Duke sits and both running and passing picks up, by a lot. When you take a faster wr out for Duke, we really only have 1 down field threat(Brown). That was a really slow group of wr's with Duke in there and it showed. Now we have more of a down field presence, wr's are open more for it and no need to fight for a ball cuz someone isn't open. Plus our TE's can do what Duke does and are better blockers.

 

I was as happy as anyone when he caught that TD, but he just doesn't offer enough right now to break into the starting 53. He tried and it looks like our offense suffered for it. Hope he gets better and produces, but he shouldn't come up just cuz he's 6'2" and 215lbs. It really is hard to argue Duke makes the offense better given what has occurred while he was playing. The trend and numbers show just the opposite. 

 

If he's brought up at all, it will most likely be due to injury. Who knows, he might be given a shot during the stretch of tough games coming up(Ravens, Steelers, Pats). Maybe we need his physical presence during that stretch. We'll see. Hopefully the TE's produce  in that stretch.

[Sundancer]

9 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I kinda feel Foster and Roberts are making it difficult for Duke to get in the game.  Foster (the Alabama favorite) suits up because I guess they feel sooner or later he and Josh will connect on some deep shots, though I wont hold my breath. Roberts the (ST player) is active because of his return ability but Roberts the (WR) is pretty much M.I.A .  

 

Foster is in for ST too. He's usually the first one to the ball on coverage. 

 

The coaches see Duke every day in practice. They are holding him out for a reason, and it's not because he's awesome and they are trying to score less. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Sundancer

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

If marginal and sub-standard means productive when given the chance in actual games, blocking on the edges, high pointing balls, winning contested throws, and scoring TDs, then I do like marginal WRs over track guys that rarely produce when given multiple games and reps to show up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have been able to squeeze a lot of analysis on his 6 catches (over 3 games) this season...

 

And it's scoring "TD", not "TDs".  He has as many as Lee Smith.

 

 

[JoPoy88]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You have been able to squeeze a lot of analysis on his 6 catches (over 3 games) this season...

 

And it's scoring "TD", not "TDs".  He has as many as Lee Smith.

 

 

No listen — these guys, who TOTALLY watched every down this guy played in canada TOTALLY know more than the coaches that see him practice every day.

 

are there some resident tape heads with the all-22 that can determine hey: was this guy getting open the 4 games he played? Im honestly curious to know.

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

 

I'd like to see a bigger bodied receiver out there among the rest of the smurfish receivers that the Bills have. 

 

 

Foster is 6' 2". And we throw to the TEs reasonably often.

 

I've got no problem with the height we've got out there now.

 

If they can find a use for Duke, great, but it's not a need.

[keepthefaith]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Foster is 6' 2". And we throw to the TEs reasonably often.

 

I've got no problem with the height we've got out there now.

 

If they can find a use for Duke, great, but it's not a need.

 

Agree on the tight ends.  Foster hasn't yet shown much beyond using his speed and Josh isn't hitting deep passes.  Duke might add something in the shorter passing game and more positional routes.  Coaches apparently haven't seen enough from Duke to put him in there recently. 

[blacklabel]

No to Duke. No to Foster. Somebody get me Da'Rick Rodgers!

[Mr. WEO]

35 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

No listen — these guys, who TOTALLY watched every down this guy played in canada TOTALLY know more than the coaches that see him practice every day.

 

are there some resident tape heads with the all-22 that can determine hey: was this guy getting open the 4 games he played? Im honestly curious to know.

 

I'm as skeptical as anyone as to this HC's ability to spot and assemble superior offensive talent (yearly), but even I wonder how rough must "the Duke" look in practice that they won't play him?

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You have been able to squeeze a lot of analysis on his 6 catches (over 3 games) this season...

 

And it's scoring "TD", not "TDs".  He has as many as Lee Smith.

 

 

 

The only analysis I provided is that he has done a lot with the 7 targets he was given, while there are other receivers who have been given more opportunities and have been meh.

 

I think it is a fair statement to say we don't know what we have with this kid because of the limited reps.

 

Not going to say he is a world-beater, I don't get too high or too low on our PS guys, but no one really knows what he can bring to this offense with the limited chances he has been given.

 

Nice Lee Smith comment, I think we may have done a tackle eligible play once last year too.

 

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, WideNine said:

 

The only analysis I provided is that he has done a lot with the 7 targets he was given, while there are other receivers who have been given more opportunities and have been meh.

 

I think it is a fair statement to say we don't know what we have with this kid because of the limited reps.

 

Not going to say he is a world-beater, I don't get too high or too low on our PS guys, but no one really knows what he can bring to this offense with the limited chances he has been given.

 

Nice Lee Smith comment, I think we may have done a tackle eligible play once last year too.

 

 

 

 

 

I would have led with that rather than the references to fighting for contested balls, high pointing things and scoring TDs....