Can someone explain the logic of sitting players that fumble?

[Phil The Thrill]

I know that this is Belichick’s philosophy - you fumble the ball, you go to the bench.  
 

I can understand this, if it’s a backup or a marginal player losing the ball.  But from everything that I’ve read, for most players, fumbles are random.  Some players are just prone to fumble the ball given their running style, but others fumble for random reasons.  Bad luck or great timing by the defense.  

 

Often times it’s not concentration penalties like false starts/personal fouls or technique issues.   So as long as it’s not a technique or focus issue, if you sit a player as a punishment, how will stop him from fumbling again?
 

I get that Singletary can’t fumble the football but he is far and away the best player on the team.  When Gore was in the game after the 2nd fumble, there was one run designed off tackle where there was a huge gap in the middle of the field.  I’m certain that Singletary cuts it back and pops a big run but Gore just hurts the corner and was taken down for a 1 yard gain.

 

I guess I get the message that turning the call over is not ok - but sitting a player like Singletary just seems the old “cutting off your nose, to spite your face” mentality.  
 

Can someone tell me what sitting Singletary accomplishes?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Phil The Thrill

[Real McClappy]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Can someone tell me what sitting Singletary accomplishes?

To think about not fumbling again?

[jdonley1180]

Wow 

[Phil The Thrill]

1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

To think about not fumbling again?

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

[BuffaloBillies]

To stress to player and team the importance of ball security. 

[GoBills808]

As I understand it fumbles aren’t random, recovering them is.

[Real McClappy]

8 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

It is mostly random and he wasn't known for fumbles in college. In 38 games he fumbled 5 times and lost 3 of those. 

 

He was a bit sloppy with the ball there for a stretch. I can only assume it was a think what your doing moment from coach to Devin.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Real McCoy

[Numark3]

1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

Why do you think fumbles are some random variable?

[HurlyBurly51]

You don't... put the ball... on the ground!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I know that this is Belichick’s philosophy - you fumble the ball, you go to the bench.  
 

I can understand this, if it’s a backup or a marginal player losing the ball.  But from everything that I’ve read, for most players, fumbles are random.  Some players are just prone to fumble the ball given their running style, but others fumble for random reasons.  Bad luck or great timing by the defense.  

 

Often times it’s not concentration penalties like false starts/personal fouls or technique issues.   So as long as it’s not a technique or focus issue, if you sit a player as a punishment, how will stop him from fumbling again?
 

I get that Singletary can’t fumble the football but he is far and away the best player on the team.  When Gore was in the game after the 2nd fumble, there was one run designed off tackle where there was a huge gap in the middle of the field.  I’m certain that Singletary cuts it back and pops a big run but Gore just hurts the corner and was taken down for a 1 yard gain.

 

I guess I get the message that turning the call over is not ok - but sitting a player like Singletary just seems the old “cutting off your nose, to spite your face” mentality.  
 

Can someone tell me what sitting Singletary accomplishes?

 

Seems to me you’re making an assumption that may not be justified (that fumbling is random) and then arguing a conclusion based on that premise.

 

If your premise is faulty, then the conclusion is faulty.  For one thing, a player may have a strain or a bruise or a jammed finger that is giving them trouble for that game and making it more likely that they’ll fumble multiple times.  For another, some players are known to fumble more than others, which suggests to me there is some technique involved.

 

So where we were close to our own goal, and a fumble could easily have become 6 for them, that was one of the few things that could have helped lose us the game.  Makes 100% sense to let Motor have a seat.  It accomplishes improving our win probability.

[Real McClappy]

47 minutes ago, Crayola64 said:

Why do you think fumbles are some random variable?

Can greatly depend on the defender punching or pulling the ball out when the back is making a move. I think that's what he's getting at with random?

 

Devin's fumble here though is all on him as he coughed the ball up. This kind of fumble can absolutely not happen. Sitting a couple series is warranted IMO.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Real McCoy

[xsoldier54]

It gives them time to think about not fumbling the next time.  Lets them know that it NOT acceptable under any circumstances.  It's standard practice.  If you fumble the football you ain't gonna play much.  Period. 

[WideNine]

8 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

To think about not fumbling again?

 

Yep, and that mad scramble behind the LOS and reversing the field created the situation where a defensive player dove and prob broke Nsekhe's ankle.

 

You will notice a lot more injuries happen around poorly executed or broken plays. I think McD is trying to send a message to the whole team about penalties and ball security.

[Phil The Thrill]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Seems to me you’re making an assumption that may not be justified (that fumbling is random) and then arguing a conclusion based on that premise.

 

If your premise is faulty, then the conclusion is faulty.  For one thing, a player may have a strain or a bruise or a jammed finger that is giving them trouble for that game and making it more likely that they’ll fumble multiple times.  For another, some players are known to fumble more than others, which suggests to me there is some technique involved.

 

So where we were close to our own goal, and a fumble could easily have become 6 for them, that was one of the few things that could have helped lose us the game.  Makes 100% sense to let Motor have a seat.  It accomplishes improving our win probability.

I would have to go back to the play to watch.  I would understand if it was a player who is know for fumbling, but the offense sputtered with Gore in backfield and Motor on the bench.  
 

I think on this case, it was a mistake.  

[Real McClappy]

1 minute ago, WideNine said:

 

Yep, and that mad scramble behind the LOS and reversing the field created the situation where a defensive player dove and prob broke Nsekhe's ankle.

 

You will notice a lot more injuries happen around poorly executed or broken plays. I think McD is trying to send a message to the whole team about penalties and ball security.

yup, just added that vid on my prior reply

[CaptnCoke11]

19 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I know that this is Belichick’s philosophy - you fumble the ball, you go to the bench.  
 

I can understand this, if it’s a backup or a marginal player losing the ball.  But from everything that I’ve read, for most players, fumbles are random.  Some players are just prone to fumble the ball given their running style, but others fumble for random reasons.  Bad luck or great timing by the defense.  

 

Often times it’s not concentration penalties like false starts/personal fouls or technique issues.   So as long as it’s not a technique or focus issue, if you sit a player as a punishment, how will stop him from fumbling again?
 

I get that Singletary can’t fumble the football but he is far and away the best player on the team.  When Gore was in the game after the 2nd fumble, there was one run designed off tackle where there was a huge gap in the middle of the field.  I’m certain that Singletary cuts it back and pops a big run but Gore just hurts the corner and was taken down for a 1 yard gain.

 

I guess I get the message that turning the call over is not ok - but sitting a player like Singletary just seems the old “cutting off your nose, to spite your face” mentality.  
 

Can someone tell me what sitting Singletary accomplishes?

You don’t like the Gore two yard runs?

[Phil The Thrill]

6 minutes ago, xsoldier54 said:

It gives them time to think about not fumbling the next time.  Lets them know that it NOT acceptable under any circumstances.  It's standard practice.  If you fumble the football you ain't gonna play much.  Period. 

Obviously, but is that really going to make a difference?  It’s not like committing a personal foul.  Sometimes fumbling is not preventable and it’s just a result of a defender making a great stab at the football or hitting the arm just right.  
 

If lightning strikes twice, how does that prevent him from fumbling?  

Just now, CaptnCoke11 said:

You don’t like the Gore two yard runs?

It was a one yard run and there was a massive hole to right but he can’t cut back like Motor

[Scott7975]

9 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Can greatly depend on the defender punching or pulling the ball out when the back is making a move. I think that what he's getting at with random?

 

Devin's fumble here though is all on him as he coughed the ball up untouched. This kind of fumble can absolutely not happen. Sitting a couple series is warranted IMO.

 

 

He shouldn't have fumbled but watch it closer. 93's hand was in there.

[Phil The Thrill]

3 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Yep, and that mad scramble behind the LOS and reversing the field created the situation where a defensive player dove and prob broke Nsekhe's ankle.

 

You will notice a lot more injuries happen around poorly executed or broken plays. I think McD is trying to send a message to the whole team about penalties and ball security.

Perhaps but injuries are a part of football.  I don’t think that can put the injury to Nsekhe on Singletary fumbling the football.  It just happened 

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

He shouldn't have fumbled but watch it closer. 93's hand was in there.

That’s why I’m saying that sitting a player after a fumble doesn’t make much sense.  In this case, it ended up hurting the Bills offense

[SirAndrew]

I’d like to think of it less as punishment, and more giving the guy time to settle down. If I were a coach, I’d be concerned that a guy needs some time to get his head back in the game. Sometimes fumbles come in bunches. As some sort of “discipline”, I don’t understand. It’s like when you see college coaches yelling at their kicker when they miss a field goal, it’s not like the guy wanted to miss the kick. 

[xsoldier54]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Obviously, but is that really going to make a difference?  It’s not like committing a personal foul.  Sometimes fumbling is not preventable and it’s just a result of a defender making a great stab at the football or hitting the arm just right.  
 

If lightning strikes twice, how does that prevent him from fumbling?  

It was a one yard run and there was a massive hole to right but he can’t cut back like Motor

Coaches would tell you that EVERY fumble is preventable.  If you fumble in the NFL you are not going to get much playing time.  PERIOD.

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Perhaps but injuries are a part of football.  I don’t think that can put the injury to Nsekhe on Singletary fumbling the football.  It just happened 

That’s why I’m saying that sitting a player after a fumble doesn’t make much sense.  In this case, it ended up hurting the Bills offense

 

They sat him for a bit to get his head straight.  It would hurt a lot more if he coughed up the ball and it went to the other team.

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, SirAndrew said:

I’d like to think of it less as punishment, and more giving the guy time to settle down. If I were a coach, I’d be concerned that a guy needs some time to get his head back in the game. Sometimes fumbles come in bunches. As some sort of “discipline”, I don’t understand. It’s like when you see college coaches yelling at their kicker when they miss a field goal, it’s not like the guy wanted to miss the kick. 

Thanks man, this was my whole point.

1 minute ago, xsoldier54 said:

Coaches would tell you that EVERY fumble is preventable.  If you fumble in the NFL you are not going to get much playing time.  PERIOD.

Ouch....don’t tell that to our quarterback 

[Wiz]

The logic is that turnovers lose games.  Gore may not be great anymore, but he doesn't fumble.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Wiz

[Big Turk]

31 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

 

To prevent a player from costing them the game by giving the ball away?

[Rochesterfan]

23 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Yep, and that mad scramble behind the LOS and reversing the field created the situation where a defensive player dove and prob broke Nsekhe's ankle.

 

You will notice a lot more injuries happen around poorly executed or broken plays. I think McD is trying to send a message to the whole team about penalties and ball security.

 

100% false.  The play and run was right behind Ty and the guy trying to tackle Singletary is the one to land on the back on Ty’s leg.  It happened before the fumble and reversing of the field.

 

 

[RyanC883]

I've never understood this, and it seems to come from the old-school coaching mentality.  It's a total cut the nose off to spite the face move.  Esp. when you HURT the team by sitting the better player.  Unless you have a moron in there, any player who fumbles does not need to sit and think about "gee, I can't do that again" to get it.  

[HOUSE]

Gives them time to write an apology letter

[K-9]

There are two schools of thought: bench a player or get him immediately involved on the next play from scrimmage, whether on a run or pass. Given his penchant for big plays, I would have opted for the latter with Singletary. Given McD's penchant for conservatism, I am not surprised he sat Singletary. 

[billsfan_34]

Yeah- ya fumble twice and fail to 2 point the ball and you have now become a liability- it also sends a strong message that it isn’t tolerated. It really is that simple.

[MDH]

Cant fumble on the bench.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

39 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

Perhaps you might consider working hard to modify your technique if it leads to you being benched.  If it's random, you might consider figuring out why it sometimes occurs.

[MAJBobby]

48 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I know that this is Belichick’s philosophy - you fumble the ball, you go to the bench.  
 

I can understand this, if it’s a backup or a marginal player losing the ball.  But from everything that I’ve read, for most players, fumbles are random.  Some players are just prone to fumble the ball given their running style, but others fumble for random reasons.  Bad luck or great timing by the defense.  

 

Often times it’s not concentration penalties like false starts/personal fouls or technique issues.   So as long as it’s not a technique or focus issue, if you sit a player as a punishment, how will stop him from fumbling again?
 

I get that Singletary can’t fumble the football but he is far and away the best player on the team.  When Gore was in the game after the 2nd fumble, there was one run designed off tackle where there was a huge gap in the middle of the field.  I’m certain that Singletary cuts it back and pops a big run but Gore just hurts the corner and was taken down for a 1 yard gain.

 

I guess I get the message that turning the call over is not ok - but sitting a player like Singletary just seems the old “cutting off your nose, to spite your face” mentality.  
 

Can someone tell me what sitting Singletary accomplishes?

let’s him think about it. I don’t recall ball security issues at FAU. But he is a Rookie who put the ball on the turf twice with his limited touches. So I am all for putting him on the bench for a series or two 

[Meatloaf63]

34 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Yep, and that mad scramble behind the LOS and reversing the field created the situation where a defensive player dove and prob broke Nsekhe's ankle.

 

You will notice a lot more injuries happen around poorly executed or broken plays. I think McD is trying to send a message to the whole team about penalties and ball security.

His leg was broken before the play turned around...

35 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

yup, just added that vid on my prior reply

Except the ankle was broke before the fumble, so there’s that....

[Real McClappy]

3 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

His leg was broken before the play turned around...

Except the ankle was broke before the fumble, so there’s that....

Yeah was a done deal on the basic run unfortunately.

Really posted that vid to show how he coughed the ball up.  

[The Frankish Reich]

Or ... the fumble prone guy's original team gives up on him. A new team picks him up and acts as if the fumble prone thing never happened. And then it doesn't happen again.

Please to meet you, Isaiah McKenzie ...

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

I've never understood this, and it seems to come from the old-school coaching mentality.  It's a total cut the nose off to spite the face move.  Esp. when you HURT the team by sitting the better player.  Unless you have a moron in there, any player who fumbles does not need to sit and think about "gee, I can't do that again" to get it.  

 

The better player doesn't put the ball on the turf in a 2 score game. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Because Coach Boone said so

Edited November 18, 2019 by EmotionallyUnstable

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

But if it’s random and not a result of poor technique , what good is that going to do?  

you’ve already decided why it happened and the response has no effect. What do you want from other posters here?

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

To prevent a player from costing them the game by giving the ball away?

 

Nahhhh........