Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Play action, short pass play to Beas. What happened? Want someone better than I am to look at the film. This is the play where Wilkins got disqualified for punching Ford. Short answer is "bad pass" but I don't think that's the real story. Looks to me as though the Bills are selling PA to the extent of having Morse and ?Feliciano pull. That leaves 3 guys including the RT, RG and Kroft responsible for 3 rushers. It can be seen that Kroft and ?Ford (buried in there) do NOT have good position on their guys. Feliciano has been pushed back into Morse's path. It's a timing play, as Josh is making a throw with anticipation, as he pulls his arm back, Bease is still running straight ahead As Josh follows through, you can see Kroft has lost contain. Josh still has a clean pocket with lots of space but that's not going to last. But Bease is only just turning. The play by play says pass thrown behind Beasley, but it looked from his "flinch" like it actually hit him in the shoulder. Can someone with a better feel for how routes and QB drops "should" look tell me what likely happened here? Clearly Beasley and Josh were out of sync, but can we tell who that is likely on? Did Bease extend his route more than Josh was expecting, or did Josh throw early? Or is it one of those "miscommunication" things where you gotta be on the team to tell? This play gave me flashbacks to last year where I felt part of the OL problem was that Daboll was trying to be "too cute" with his play design. Maybe our OL does not have the experience playing together that we need to be having the center and RG "pull" to sell the PA? Everybody picked up their assignment correctly but 2 guys have clearly lost the leverage battle. It's probably a good guess that in the scrum, hidden from the refs, Ford did something Wilkins took strong exception to and that may have been a penalty if the refs saw it. The previous play was also an example of Daboll trying "cuteness" as it was a successful run up the gut by Gore with McKensie doing a fake jet sweep. At least that one worked. I suppose this is a form of MMQ where if it's successful it's clever but if it fails it's too cute. We wound up gaining 15 yds by penalty, but I would rather have seen another run play to gain those 2 yds. Run it until they show they can shut it down and establish your dominance on the OL before you try to get cute with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) Allen threw it too soon Edited October 21, 2019 by CaptnCoke11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Prolly a hair too soon yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramza86 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Shows that the two arent in as much sync. Im no Allen apologist but a smarter WR would have noticed the blitz and looked to Allen sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Ramza86 said: Shows that the two arent in as much sync. Im no Allen apologist but a smarter WR would have noticed the blitz and looked to Allen sooner. A smarter "WR? Edited October 21, 2019 by Royale with Cheese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ramza86 said: Shows that the two arent in as much sync. Im no Allen apologist but a smarter WR would have noticed the blitz and looked to Allen sooner. Not sure about "smarter" but he might have been late looking for the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Looks like the route combination was designed to attack the slot corner, who had to choose between Duke and Beaz. Allen should've thrown it to Duke, who was closer to being open on the out route. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan_in_tx Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Possible Rub play to open up the outside route to the stick.. to me it looks like Beas is looking for someone to hit inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Guy on the Bench Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Doc said: Not sure about "smarter" but he might have been late looking for the ball. I wondered. Didn't Josh then point to his eyes while looking at Beasley? I feel like I remember that. If so, maybe he was telling Beasley to look sooner, or maybe he was saying it was his own fault somehow? Not sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Seems to me Lofton remarked that it may well have been on CB. Can't recall but I stopped blaming the guy I thought was in the wrong when suddenly it hit me I had no idea who was supposed to do what. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Allen threw it too soon Disagree. Beasley made wrong read. They are playing zone...he is wide open. The read should be to hook there and he decided to curl toward the zone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) them two are NOT on same page beasley wasnt even looking and the pass missed him badly guessing beasley blew a hot read Edited October 21, 2019 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Allen threw it too soon This. They were just out of sync, and I put that on Allen. I am begining to think that Allen needs Prozac or s stiff drink at the start of games. He is just too amped, but settles down into a rhythm later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Just now, papazoid said: them two are NOT on same page beasley wasnt even looking and the pass missed him badly and yet Beasley is on pace for a career high in receptions..... look out for when they meshing... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Disagree. Beasley made wrong read. They are playing zone...he is wide open. The read should be to hook there and he decided to curl toward the zone. This was my thought. I thought Allen had expected him to stop in that space instead of breaking in. You can see the space between the two defenders. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 beasley actually ducked his head....lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Allen was reading the slot CB and Beasley was reading the LB, which led to their mix-up. Since the option depended on who the CB covered, Beasley should've noticed the CB break outside for Duke and immediately looked for the ball (I think that's why Allen gestured towards his eyes after). Beasley sees the LB break to his right and wants to take advantage of the open middle, but that's not how the throwing lanes are set up. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, H2o said: This was my thought. I thought Allen had expected him to stop in that space instead of breaking in. You can see the space between the two defenders. Exactly. Those 2 work on reading the same thing. Allen read it correctly and threw it with timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiseman3 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Its one play. Everyone needs to relax. Being this invested in every single play is why many people will never be satisfied with Allen. I can pull up a bad throw/miscommunication from every single quarterback this week. It happens to everyone. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 33 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Disagree. Beasley made wrong read. They are playing zone...he is wide open. The read should be to hook there and he decided to curl toward the zone. Totally agree here. Looked like the PA was designed to keep the LB toward the middle of the field. Josh is looking at the CB - if he stays outside - you have a quick hook up there for 5 yards and a first down. Josh put it right where he expects Cole to hook up and Cole pushes the route farther to the middle - so the pass is a bit behind. In reality only the WR/QB/OC will know for sure, but that is my read based on how quickly Josh was getting that pass out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Allen threw it too soon If he threw to soon - it should have been way in front - not behind the WR. Looked like good rhythm- just two guys with different reads on the play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 the catch that really mattered 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 Wide Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Allen also threw it about 90 MPH, not a throw you can lollipop in there, but not everything needs to be a fastball. The Beasley touchdown pass had some mustard on it too, almost went through his hands. Allen had nice touch on the throw to Duke, but he seems to have the adrenaline flowing alot and is ripping fastballs when the situation may not call for it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven-N-Nine Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: A smarter "WR? Yeah, like Edleman etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The amount of analysis over this one inconsequential play makes me proud to be a Bills fan. ? 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, Seven-N-Nine said: Yeah, like Edleman etc. In the game where the Bills played the Pats, a play similar to this happened with Brady and Edelman. Edelman didn't even turn his head and the ball was thrown... These things just happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The QB and WR have to both understand what the key read is. So, probably part of the problem is that they weren't making the same read. Probably another part of the problem is the defense wasn't just standing around, watching. They react to the play as they're coached to do, probably to confuse either the QB or WR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, papazoid said: them two are NOT on same page beasley wasnt even looking and the pass missed him badly guessing beasley blew a hot read This is my thought as well. The hot read was missed. But as a few other posters have already said, Josh and Beasley know what should have happened and who didn't make the adjustment. These are the kinds of things that the average poster doesn't consider. It's easy to blame one guy and that one guy is normally the QB. Maybe the blame belongs there, maybe it doesn't. 21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: In the game where the Bills played the Pats, a play similar to this happened with Brady and Edelman. Edelman didn't even turn his head and the ball was thrown... These things just happen. And how long have Brady and Edelman been playing, and how long have they been playing together? They're the epitome of the perfectly fitting hand and glove. That relationship takes a few years to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Ramza86 said: Shows that the two arent in as much sync. Im no Allen apologist but a smarter WR would have noticed the blitz and looked to Allen sooner. There wasn't a blitz. Phins sent 5, Bills had 1:1 personnel with Kroft in to blocking. It was hat-on-hat except Feliciano and Morse pulled to sell the run, which left Kroft with primary responsibility for a guy, which battle he lost. But Josh had time. 9 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Allen threw it too soon Maybe? It's not clear to me. Maybe he was expecting Bease to make his cut and turn his head earlier. Route miscue. Didn't help us, but also a moot point since we got 15 yds off the play thanks to whatever it was Ford did in the scrum there that induced Wilkins to punch him. 8 hours ago, papazoid said: them two are NOT on same page beasley wasnt even looking and the pass missed him badly guessing beasley blew a hot read Actually from slowing the film, it looks to me as if the pass hit Beasley on the shoulder. Possibly Allen was throwing with a bit too much "zing", but that had to hurt. It wasn't a bad miss, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Their timing was off with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 13 hours ago, 5 Wide said: Allen also threw it about 90 MPH, not a throw you can lollipop in there, but not everything needs to be a fastball. The Beasley touchdown pass had some mustard on it too, almost went through his hands. Allen had nice touch on the throw to Duke, but he seems to have the adrenaline flowing alot and is ripping fastballs when the situation may not call for it. That was my other thought, that Allen had his juices going early in the game and put a bit too much heat on the ball. But I'm not sure, and opinion here also seems divided. 13 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: The amount of analysis over this one inconsequential play makes me proud to be a Bills fan. ? That's sarcasm? Should I apologize for not starting Yet Another Thread about how Allen has yet to throw for 300 yds and 3 TDs or the like? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 A run up the middle with jet action is "cute?" This wasn't the only time they pulled linemen to sell a run fake, they did it a number of times in the game and it generally worked out fine, as it did on this play. Our OL handles it well, not sure what you're getting at there? It was a quick pass and Josh had more than enough time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: There wasn't a blitz. Phins sent 5, Bills had 1:1 personnel with Kroft in to blocking. It was hat-on-hat except Feliciano and Morse pulled to sell the run, which left Kroft with primary responsibility for a guy, which battle he lost. But Josh had time. Maybe? It's not clear to me. Maybe he was expecting Bease to make his cut and turn his head earlier. Route miscue. Didn't help us, but also a moot point since we got 15 yds off the play thanks to whatever it was Ford did in the scrum there that induced Wilkins to punch him. Actually from slowing the film, it looks to me as if the pass hit Beasley on the shoulder. Possibly Allen was throwing with a bit too much "zing", but that had to hurt. It wasn't a bad miss, though. Hey Hapless - thought I would add the All 22 to the conversation. It looks as if Allen is going to Beasley from the snap. When he throws, that ball is on Beasley just as he starts to turn his head (:23). It really is hard to tell if Allen expected Beasley to sit on that route or look to Allen sooner - or if it was a bad throw. I tend to go with the former, rather than the latter, only because not only was the pass behind Beasley, but, Beasley wasn't even looking for it yet. So, more of a miscommunication between the two. Like you said, maybe it is one of those plays where you have to be on the team to know exactly wha happened and who was at fault. I like this kind of discussion, though... Edited October 22, 2019 by billsfan1959 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: That's sarcasm? Should I apologize for not starting Yet Another Thread about how Allen has yet to throw for 300 yds and 3 TDs or the like? It was actually a compliment! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: It was actually a compliment! oh well then.... apologies and thank you! its partly this Allen inaccurate narrative, I like to look carefully at passed that seem off target to see if I can figure out what’s up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aireskoi Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Watching the video from the 1st angle it looks like the throw should have been leading Beasley to the middle of the field, away from the defender. The pass ends up the other way, to the outside of the defender...bad pass IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 this was a great pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: this was a great pass. And therein lies the core of much of the debate on Allen. He can, what appears to many, make a bad throw to Beasley (shown in posts above) - that should be a fairly easy completion - and then make throws like this one. I love the kid and think he is going to just get better and better - becoming that franchise QB this team has been looking for since Kelly. However, I also understand some of the skepticism as well. I also think this pass is where Josh Allen's strength is at - that 18-25 yard range. I would love to see more designed plays to feature / maximize that strength Edited October 22, 2019 by billsfan1959 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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