Inigo Montoya Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) Buffalo Bills Penalties By Year; 2014 Doug Marrone; 124 penalties, 31st in league 1031 yards, 28th in league 2015 Rex Ryan; 143 penalties 32nd in league 1249 yards, 32nd in league 2016 Rex Ryan; 111 penalties 23rd in league 995 yards, 21st in league 2017 McDermott; 98 penalties 10th in league 872 yards, 9th in league --- PLAYOFFS 2018 McDermott; 116 penalties 27th in league 992 yards, 28th in league We obviously took a big step backwards from 2017 to 2018 in penalties. You can't blame our poor 2018 season on an increase in penalties alone, but it certainly was a significant part of it. How many of Allen's big passes down field for a first down got called back due to penalties? At times last season it seemed like every other big play Allen had got nullified by a penalty. I don't think it was possible for the Bills to punt or kick off, or receive a punt or kick off last year without a penalty flag flying. I think it's fair to blame part of the team's penalty regression on a young roster of less skillful players who got caught out of position and were forced to interfere or hold trying to make a play, but some of it is also due to a lack of player discipline. Below are the "discipline" penalty totals broken down by type. The totals below are for Roughing the Passer, Personal Fouls, Unnecessary Roughness, and Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties on the Bills. 2014 10 2015 12 2016 11 2017 6 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 9 The totals below are for pre-snap infractions, Offside and False Start penalties on the Bills. 2014 26 2015 22 2016 12 2017 13 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 26 We're not a good enough football team yet to be able to give away yards and downs to the opposition and not have it cost us in the win-loss column. If we can get back to playing disciplined football that could make the difference between getting into the playoffs this year or watching from the sidelines again. Playing clean football is a trait of well coached, disciplined, and ultimately successful teams. McDermott and his staff need to reverse this trend and get back to playing tough, physical, but smart football this season. Edited April 30, 2019 by Inigo Montoya 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I’ve been screaming this since January. Culture/Process/Leadership/Discipline are hammered and repeated every day by Sean. Yet we’re the antithesis of this on the field. Penalties gave away a couple games last year and put a serious dent in Josh Allen’s season stats. It wasn’t even that we weren’t good or talented enough to overcome them. I don’t think any team could. The worst byproduct of this undisciplined play is every referee team who has a Buffalo game coming next week is schooled on how error-filled we are. They expect it likely to the point of spending extra time in the days leading up to the game practicing throwing their hanky. Fair or not, this is on coaching. Implement an escalating fine system. Bench a starter for a half. Have refs at every single practice. Change your ‘Process’ Sean. With more turnovers and fewer penalties, that half-talented team threatens the playoffs last year. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) Lack of talent (2018 Bills)often leads to penalties. Especially on the O line, where guys hold when they are getting physically overwhelmed , or false start trying to get into their pass set a split second too fast. I’d expect better line play this year, and less of those types of penalties. I often hear folks say penalties are on the coaching, but ex players ( such as Steve Tasker) will say it’s on the players. I’d tend to agree with Tasker there. Players are out on the field, not the coach. Edited April 30, 2019 by Boatdrinks 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said: Buffalo Bills Penalties By Year; 2014 Doug Marrone; 124 penalties, 31st in league 1031 yards, 28th in league 2015 Rex Ryan; 143 penalties 32nd in league 1249 yards, 32nd in league 2016 Rex Ryan; 111 penalties 23rd in league 995 yards, 21st in league 2017 McDermott; 98 penalties 10th in league 872 yards, 9th in league --- PLAYOFFS 2018 McDermott; 116 penalties 27th in league 992 yards, 28th in league We obviously took a big step backwards from 2017 to 2018 in penalties. You can't blame our poor 2018 season on an increase in penalties alone, but it certainly was a significant part of it. How many of Allen's big passes down field for a first down got called back due to penalties? At times last season it seemed like every other big play Allen had got nullified by a penalty. I don't think it was possible for the Bills to punt or kick off, or receive a punt or kick off last year without a penalty flag flying. I think it's fair to blame part of the team's penalty regression on a young roster of less skillful players who got caught out of position and were forced to interfere or hold trying to make a play, but some of it is also due to a lack of player discipline. Below are the "discipline" penalty totals broken down by type. The totals below are for Roughing the Passer, Personal Fouls, Unnecessary Roughness, and Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties on the Bills. 2014 10 2015 12 2016 11 2017 6 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 9 The totals below are for pre-snap infractions, Offside and False Start penalties on the Bills. 2014 26 2015 22 2016 12 2017 13 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 26 We're not a good enough football team yet to be able to give away yards and downs to the opposition and not have it cost us in the win / loss column. If we can get back to playing disciplined football that could make the difference between getting into the playoffs this year or watching from the sidelines again. Playing clean football is a trait of well coached, disciplined, and ultimately successful teams. McDermott and his staff need to reverse this trend and get back to playing tough, physical, but smart football this season. The 2018 penalty issue was simple - lack of talent. Guys who couldn't line up right had shoddy technique and panicked when beaten. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 On the bright side …. the Bills haven't committed a penalty in months 3 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 minute ago, macaroni said: On the bright side …. the Bills haven't committed a penalty in months I was thinking I missed something when I saw the thread title, let's at least wait until Rookie Mini-Camp is over to start talking game analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 If you look at the overall totals, we were penalized double the amount on the road than we were at home. The Jacksonville game also has to be taken into account because that was just a brawl. The Minnesota, Houston, Jacksonville, and first Miami game accounted for 50 of our total 116 penalties. That's almost half of the total in a quarter of the season. We were one Charles Clay drop and a Josh Allen injury away from being 4-0 in those games as Nate "Petermanned" the game in Houston. With that being said I agree with Gunner's take as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cage Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Good analysis and topic! Undisciplined play is a huge indicator of wins/losses. Another nuance to the game that they need to take care of to get back on the positive side of a season's record. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Duffy Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I think it's a mixture of lack of talent, undisciplined, and poor officiating at times as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I expect the pre-snap penalties on offense to diminish significantly with Josh in his second year in the system, a potential all-pro at C, along with proven vets (Brown/Beasley) at WR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: Buffalo Bills Penalties By Year; 2014 Doug Marrone; 124 penalties, 31st in league 1031 yards, 28th in league 2015 Rex Ryan; 143 penalties 32nd in league 1249 yards, 32nd in league 2016 Rex Ryan; 111 penalties 23rd in league 995 yards, 21st in league 2017 McDermott; 98 penalties 10th in league 872 yards, 9th in league --- PLAYOFFS 2018 McDermott; 116 penalties 27th in league 992 yards, 28th in league We obviously took a big step backwards from 2017 to 2018 in penalties. You can't blame our poor 2018 season on an increase in penalties alone, but it certainly was a significant part of it. How many of Allen's big passes down field for a first down got called back due to penalties? At times last season it seemed like every other big play Allen had got nullified by a penalty. I don't think it was possible for the Bills to punt or kick off, or receive a punt or kick off last year without a penalty flag flying. I think it's fair to blame part of the team's penalty regression on a young roster of less skillful players who got caught out of position and were forced to interfere or hold trying to make a play, but some of it is also due to a lack of player discipline. Below are the "discipline" penalty totals broken down by type. The totals below are for Roughing the Passer, Personal Fouls, Unnecessary Roughness, and Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties on the Bills. 2014 10 2015 12 2016 11 2017 6 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 9 The totals below are for pre-snap infractions, Offside and False Start penalties on the Bills. 2014 26 2015 22 2016 12 2017 13 --- PLAYOFFS 2018 26 We're not a good enough football team yet to be able to give away yards and downs to the opposition and not have it cost us in the win-loss column. If we can get back to playing disciplined football that could make the difference between getting into the playoffs this year or watching from the sidelines again. Playing clean football is a trait of well coached, disciplined, and ultimately successful teams. McDermott and his staff need to reverse this trend and get back to playing tough, physical, but smart football this season. Might be a reason there were many changes to the coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 So what were the league averages those same years? Were they up? Maybe there were more penalties called last season overall, don't know. Without knowing that part, no idea if this is really getting worse or not or is it a league trend, just caused by tighter/more calls. Having said that I'll also agree with many other who blame it on lack of talent and also player churn, i.e. inexperience, tweaking the lineup, etc. All the pre-snap penalties can be attributed to new QB and many new/different lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) I have the simple answer The Refs SUCK So many new rules / tweaks that even the Refs don't understand and it seems neither do the people in the booth or Referee Central (wherever that is) Edited April 30, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 3 hours ago, macaroni said: On the bright side …. the Bills haven't committed a penalty in months This right here is part of the problem! Everything is a joke around here. Always trying to have fun. Be serious for once! Until we get serious, Pena lites will be our downfall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Duffy Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 32 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: I have the simple answer The Refs SUCK So many new rules / tweaks that even the Refs don't understand and it seems neither do the people in the booth or Referee Central (wherever that is) The same as I said earlier, have definitely seen some flags thrown many of time when they shouldn't have. In any event it's a mixture of a little bit of all of it though. 3 minutes ago, NewEra said: This right here is part of the problem! Everything is a joke around here. Always trying to have fun. Be serious for once! Until we get serious, Pena lites will be our downfall Lol, we as fans need to get serious so the penalties will decrease. I see what you did there....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Lack of talent (2018 Bills)often leads to penalties. Especially on the O line, where guys hold when they are getting physically overwhelmed , or false start trying to get into their pass set a split second too fast. I’d expect better line play this year, and less of those types of penalties. I often hear folks say penalties are on the coaching, but ex players ( such as Steve Tasker) will say it’s on the players. I’d tend to agree with Tasker there. Players are out on the field, not the coach. My first thought as well so I wanted to take a deeper look. Here is what I found. http://www.nflpenalties.com/team/buffalo-bills?year=2018&view=position Totals 116 992 52 64 13 8 Offensive Line 38 295 18 20 7 1 Defensive Back 19 278 7 12 3 2 Defensive Line 13 80 5 8 1 2 Tight End 11 89 4 7 0 0 Unknown/Unset 11 46 4 7 0 0 Wide Receiver 10 93 4 6 2 1 Linebacker 8 61 4 4 0 1 Quarterback 3 25 3 0 0 0 Runningback 3 25 3 0 0 1 I took the "Unknown" and split them between offense and defense and that give 70/116 penalties on the offense (38) on the offensive line alone. Dawkins had the most per player at 11. EDIT: Here is the breakdown for the "unknown/Unnamed" players. Unnamed 11 0.688 46 2.875 0 0 8 Illegal Formation (4), Defensive Too Many Men on Field (3), Delay of Game (3), Illegal Shift (1) So of those penalties it looks like the breakdown is 8 on offense and 3 on defense which makes the total 73/116 on offense. Although those penalties could be on ST so it might be better to leave them out other than the 3 listed as defense. Edited April 30, 2019 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bray Wyatt Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: The 2018 penalty issue was simple - lack of talent. Guys who couldn't line up right had shoddy technique and panicked when beaten. Was about to post the same thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemma Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Dawkins, Mills, Teller, Miller and Ducasse were 5 of the top 7 penalized (31 total) with Dawkins the major culprit (11). Let's see what the new OL new coach does to clean it up. The top 5 OL for the Colts had 25 (somewhat better). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Beyond even the front-end like lost yards, auto first downs etc. I feel like we had quite a few nice plays come off the board for stupid stuff beyond holding like illegal shifts, or not lining up on the LOS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 So in a year where the roster talent is significantly depleted we see an increase in penalties. Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 hour ago, The Wiz said: My first thought as well so I wanted to take a deeper look. Here is what I found. http://www.nflpenalties.com/team/buffalo-bills?year=2018&view=position Totals 116 992 52 64 13 8 Offensive Line 38 295 18 20 7 1 Defensive Back 19 278 7 12 3 2 Defensive Line 13 80 5 8 1 2 Tight End 11 89 4 7 0 0 Unknown/Unset 11 46 4 7 0 0 Wide Receiver 10 93 4 6 2 1 Linebacker 8 61 4 4 0 1 Quarterback 3 25 3 0 0 0 Runningback 3 25 3 0 0 1 I took the "Unknown" and split them between offense and defense and that give 70/116 penalties on the offense (38) on the offensive line alone. Dawkins had the most per player at 11. EDIT: Here is the breakdown for the "unknown/Unnamed" players. Unnamed 11 0.688 46 2.875 0 0 8 Illegal Formation (4), Defensive Too Many Men on Field (3), Delay of Game (3), Illegal Shift (1) So of those penalties it looks like the breakdown is 8 on offense and 3 on defense which makes the total 73/116 on offense. Although those penalties could be on ST so it might be better to leave them out other than the 3 listed as defense. You could just change “unnamed” to Jerry Hughes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: I’ve been screaming this since January. Culture/Process/Leadership/Discipline are hammered and repeated every day by Sean. Yet we’re the antithesis of this on the field. Penalties gave away a couple games last year and put a serious dent in Josh Allen’s season stats. It wasn’t even that we weren’t good or talented enough to overcome them. I don’t think any team could. The worst byproduct of this undisciplined play is every referee team who has a Buffalo game coming next week is schooled on how error-filled we are. They expect it likely to the point of spending extra time in the days leading up to the game practicing throwing their hanky. Fair or not, this is on coaching. Implement an escalating fine system. Bench a starter for a half. Have refs at every single practice. Change your ‘Process’ Sean. With more turnovers and fewer penalties, that half-talented team threatens the playoffs last year. When you simply are not good enough talent wise like on the offensive line, that is when you commit the most penalties...you simply can't match up physically so you have to resort to doing other things and hope the ref misses it, or figure it's better to take a hold than allow a sack and/or fumble when the QB gets hit. In addition in the first half of the year there were a maddening number of illegal formation penalties--seemingly at least 2 a game that ended up mostly going away in the 2nd half of the year as the young guys finally got it through their head on what to do to ensure they were lined up properly. I don't think this will be as big of an issue with the talent upgrade this year and another year in the same system for most offensive players. People need to understand cause and effect a little better for the most part with this. EDIT: posted this without even looking at the stats on the offensive line...then I saw the penalized unit was the offensive line...really it's common sense. Edited April 30, 2019 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, chris heff said: You could just change “unnamed” to Jerry Hughes. Hughes had 0 unnecessary roughness, and 0 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties in 2018. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, chris heff said: You could just change “unnamed” to Jerry Hughes. Imagine if we could change all of the missed penalties against Hughes to actual penalties? Dude probably led the NFL in blatant penalties that were not called again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Penalties hurt, but they hurt the most when your team can't overcome them by making plays. I mean, the Chiefs lead the league in penalty flags against per game by a significant margin, but it didn't hurt them much because they can make plays. Discipline is good, playmaking is better, but both is best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 6 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Lack of talent (2018 Bills)often leads to penalties. Especially on the O line, where guys hold when they are getting physically overwhelmed , or false start trying to get into their pass set a split second too fast. I’d expect better line play this year, and less of those types of penalties. I often hear folks say penalties are on the coaching, but ex players ( such as Steve Tasker) will say it’s on the players. I’d tend to agree with Tasker there. Players are out on the field, not the coach. I was going to say this. We had OL guys who were desperate last year. They were going to get beaten like rugs after the snap and they knew it. If we improved the OL I think that will help a lot. But @Chandler81 has it right, there is still a stunning lack of discipline for a team coached by a guy who makes that his watchword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I was going to say this. We had OL guys who were desperate last year. They were going to get beaten like rugs after the snap and they knew it. If we improved the OL I think that will help a lot. But @Chandler81 has it right, there is still a stunning lack of discipline for a team coached by a guy who makes that his watchword. Even worse the coaching had no answers as to help them at all. Good coaching can at least make up a little bit for lack of talent, however I'm of the opinion our coaching actually made it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 The changing rules, replays and poor/inconsistent refereeing is the NFL's biggest buzzkill. It's not the same/great game to watch it once was. It's been dragged out quite a bit. If it weren't for Fantasy Football, the viewership would likely be in big decline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 5 hours ago, H2o said: If you look at the overall totals, we were penalized double the amount on the road than we were at home. The Jacksonville game also has to be taken into account because that was just a brawl. The Minnesota, Houston, Jacksonville, and first Miami game accounted for 50 of our total 116 penalties. That's almost half of the total in a quarter of the season. We were one Charles Clay drop and a Josh Allen injury away from being 4-0 in those games as Nate "Petermanned" the game in Houston. With that being said I agree with Gunner's take as well. Great info. It would be interesting to see if those were the same ref units at those four games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 2 hours ago, NewEra said: This right here is part of the problem! Everything is a joke around here. Always trying to have fun. Be serious for once! Until we get serious, Pena lites will be our downfall So let me get this straight … if I don't joke around on this board, it will affect the quality of play by the team? I hereby swear to never EVER post a light hearted post again ….. SUPERBOWL baby!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I'm sure with the added talent and off season of work chances are good it may not be an issue, again. 2 hours ago, NewEra said: This right here is part of the problem! Everything is a joke around here. Always trying to have fun. Be serious for once! Until we get serious, Pena lites will be our downfall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 19 minutes ago, macaroni said: So let me get this straight … if I don't joke around on this board, it will affect the quality of play by the team? I hereby swear to never EVER post a light hearted post again ….. SUPERBOWL baby!!!!!! Not only will it affect the quality of play by the team, the refs will start taking us more seriously and call less penalties on us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: I'm sure with the added talent and off season of work chances are good it may not be an issue, again. Oh and this gets an ejection 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 16 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: I'm sure with the added talent and off season of work chances are good it may not be an issue, again. Insert sarcasm here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 2 hours ago, I am the egg man said: The changing rules, replays and poor/inconsistent refereeing is the NFL's biggest buzzkill. It's not the same/great game to watch it once was. It's been dragged out quite a bit. If it weren't for Fantasy Football, the viewership would likely be in big decline. Seems like you are bootstrapping counselor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I think McDermott is a great person. But with these penalties and his challenge record, he has a ton of improvement to do. Penalties and being bad at challenges has nothing to do with talent. It needs to be much better. He lost control of Hughes in the past and Phillips last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I think penalties can be a symptom of other issues on a team. Sometimes when a team plays a real aggressive style of defense, there can be some penalties because of chippiness, for instance. In Buffalo's case, without doing any kind of statistical study, I think maybe the poor quality of the offensive line may have had something to do with some of the offensive penalties, particularly false starts and offensive holding. There does need to be more emphasis on discipline on the field in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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