What's the better strategy for the Cardinals?

[D521646]

I was thinking about this today, and was wondering why I haven't heard any buzz about the Cardinals possibly trading the No 1 overall, and running with Rosen, and taking a QB later in the first or maybe even next year.

 

So I ask, if your the GM of Arizona, would you trade out of the number one overall, stick with Rosen for at least another year, and scoop up all these draft picks to put weapons around Josh?  Is one season enough to judge Rosen?  Granted he was garbage last year, but how much of that was his OL, offensive weapons, and defense?  I though TSW was pretty consensus on the idea that you can't judge accurately how a QB will be with just one year to his resume?  Look at Goff, as an example.

 

I personally think the Cards are making a potentially huge mistake in letting Rosen walk after just one year.  Oh, and before anyone says anything.  No, I was a Josh Allen guy all the way, never waivered, except that one time in band camp, when I fell in love with Mayfield for a brief, but in a weakened state of mind.

 

Thoughts?

 

Tim-

[MTLBills]

The strategy is to get it right at QB, no matter the cost. If they think its Murray, then losing Rosen for pennies on the dollar is the least of their concerns.

 

Decide who your guy is, then optimize the situation thereafter.

[klos63]

Just now, MTLBills said:

The strategy is to get it right at QB, no matter the cost. If they think its Murray, then losing Rosen for pennies on the dollar is the least of their concerns.

 

Decide who your guy is, then optimize the situation thereafter.

Agreed. They want Murray to be their franchise QB, why would they not take him?

[row_33]

I"ve heard it discussed on a half dozen NFL talk podcasts

 

[Rc2catch]

I think given the stage of their team it’s a mistake. Had all this craziness about Murray not been in the news non stop Arizona probably could of traded out of 1, got extra picks and stayed in the top 5 and still get Murray. I’m not sure many teams want him and would mortgage the future draft picks to move up so high. They have sooooooo many needs I would HATE to be a fan of that team. 

Murray had better be a top 5 quarterback before his rookie deal ends or they’re probably in for a very very long rebuild 

[Just Joshin']

If you think Rosen is a bust, move on.

 

If you think Murray will be a superstar, draft him.

 

If you think Rosen and Murray are equal, build around Rosen.

 

If you think Kliff can't work with Rosen, you hired the wrong coach.

[eball]

1 minute ago, Just Joshin' said:

If you think Rosen is a bust, move on.

 

If you think Murray will be a superstar, draft him.

 

If you think Rosen and Murray are equal, build around Rosen.

 

If you think Kliff can't work with Rosen, you hired the wrong coach.

 

Extrapolating the bolded above -- basically, the Cards need to evaluate what they believe to be the realistic potential (floor and ceiling) for both QBs.  If the evaluation is relatively close, the smart move is to trade out of #1 and acquire talent to build around Rosen.  You draft Murray if you believe his ceiling far surpasses Rosen's and/or if Kingsbury tells you Murray is a much better fit for his offense.

 

[NewEra]

All depends on the HC and what he wants from his QB.  If he NEEDS mobility, trade Rosen.  If he doesn’t need mobility, I’d keep Rosen and try and trade down to 2-4 if it’s possible 

[corta765]

13 minutes ago, MTLBills said:

The strategy is to get it right at QB, no matter the cost. If they think its Murray, then losing Rosen for pennies on the dollar is the least of their concerns.

 

Decide who your guy is, then optimize the situation thereafter.

 

Exactly. Maybe with Rosen you get to 6-10/7-9 this year and then a 10-6 season with more help for him but that is his limit. Whereas with Murray even if you suffer one growing year if his potential is far greater after for many consistent 10-12 win seasons you go that route everytime.

[ricko1112]

28 minutes ago, D521646 said:

I was thinking about this today, and was wondering why I haven't heard any buzz about the Cardinals possibly trading the No 1 overall, and running with Rosen, and taking a QB later in the first or maybe even next year.

 

So I ask, if your the GM of Arizona, would you trade out of the number one overall, stick with Rosen for at least another year, and scoop up all these draft picks to put weapons around Josh?  Is one season enough to judge Rosen?  Granted he was garbage last year, but how much of that was his OL, offensive weapons, and defense?  I though TSW was pretty consensus on the idea that you can't judge accurately how a QB will be with just one year to his resume?  Look at Goff, as an example.

 

I personally think the Cards are making a potentially huge mistake in letting Rosen walk after just one year.  Oh, and before anyone says anything.  No, I was a Josh Allen guy all the way, never waivered, except that one time in band camp, when I fell in love with Mayfield for a brief, but in a weakened state of mind.

 

Thoughts?

 

Tim-

This is the Cardinals... The HC is going to give his players social media breaks every 20 minutes. Of course they should trade out, stockpile picks, and build up the O and D lines. Rosen didn't have a prayer last year. Oh yeah, Murray will be a bust...

[dpberr]

The Cardinals seem to be really into Kliff Kingsbury and I think that's the risky gamble.  They are letting him decide the only #1 draft pick they've ever had in franchise history without coaching a game yet.  He could be a terrible coach.  They have no idea.  Wouldn't be the first time the NFL ate a decently successful college coach for lunch.

 

Oh, and he happens to want a quarterback who is an exceptionally risky pick at #1 too.  It's either going to look like the shrewdest front office of the last 20 years or the worst.  There's no middle ground.  

 

 

[corta765]

7 minutes ago, dpberr said:

The Cardinals seem to be really into Kliff Kingsbury and I think that's the risky gamble.  They are letting him decide the only #1 draft pick they've ever had in franchise history without coaching a game yet.  He could be a terrible coach.  They have no idea.  Wouldn't be the first time the NFL ate a decently successful college coach for lunch.

 

Oh, and he happens to want a quarterback who is an exceptionally risky pick at #1 too.  It's either going to look like the shrewdest front office of the last 20 years or the worst.  There's no middle ground.  

 

 

 

I mean in a way what their doing is probably what you should do which is give the coach the player he wants and the dexterity to do so. Your putting your eggs in one basket hoping for the best which in prism seems like a good idea given how the NFL goes. But when you expand and see how much draft capital was wasted for Rosen that will not be recouped including the previous HC you just fired it seems really risky. These are the kind of moves that have a chance at big success but very likely can destroy the foundation of a team if things are not put in place proper.

Edited April 9, 2019 by corta765

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

38 minutes ago, row_33 said:

I"ve heard it discussed on a half dozen NFL talk podcasts

 

 

...saw a mock last night that had them taking Bosa #1..............

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

trade Rosen to NE*   

 

[row_33]

20 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

trade Rosen to NE*   

 

 

you just know the Pats will bring in a Steve Young/Aaron Rodgers type to replace the HOF great in his last days....

 

 

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, D521646 said:

I

Thoughts?

 

Tim-

Draft Murray, keep Rosen and choose your savior after 10 months

 

[Albany,n.y.]

46 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

If you think Rosen is a bust, move on.

 

If you think Murray will be a superstar, draft him.

 

If you think Rosen and Murray are equal, build around Rosen.

 

If you think Kliff can't work with Rosen, you hired the wrong coach.

My thoughts exactly. 

 

One thing that can be concluded about Rosen: No GM without a QB who they believe is a long term franchise QB thinks Rosen will ever be a franchise QB.  At best, Rosen is viewed as no more than adequate.  Obviously Arizona doesn't view Rosen as a potential franchise QB, which is why they are considering drafting Murray.  This is similar to the way the Bills viewed Tyrod Taylor-JAG who will never be a franchise QB.  If anyone with a QB need thought of Rosen as a franchise QB, they would have offered Arizona a #1 pick.  So far, according to rumors, the best offer is a #2.  

[Albany,n.y.]

51 minutes ago, ricko1112 said:

This is the Cardinals... The HC is going to give his players social media breaks every 20 minutes. Of course they should trade out, stockpile picks, and build up the O and D lines. Rosen didn't have a prayer last year. Oh yeah, Murray will be a bust...

What if nobody wants to trade up to #1 who has the draft capital to do so?  The top of the draft is loaded with top D players who are all rated pretty equally.  Why would a team anywhere near the top want to make a trade up when they can get a player just as good as the one they can get at their spot?  If a team further down wants to get to the top, it would be too cost prohibitive to do so.  So this just isn't a reply to you, it's a reply to everyone who thinks Arizona can just snap their fingers & find a trade partner who will give them a haul for the top pick-easier said than done.  

[The Senator]

1 hour ago, Just Joshin' said:

If you think Kliff can't work with Rosen, you hired the wrong coach.

 

If they wanted a QB whisperer, they should have gone ahead snd hired the real Mike Leach, not Kingsbury...

 

https://www.si.com/college-football/2019/01/29/usc-graham-harrell-mike-leach-coaching-tree

,

Edited April 9, 2019 by The Senator

[mannc]

19 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

My thoughts exactly. 

 

One thing that can be concluded about Rosen: No GM without a QB who they believe is a long term franchise QB thinks Rosen will ever be a franchise QB.  At best, Rosen is viewed as no more than adequate.  Obviously Arizona doesn't view Rosen as a potential franchise QB, which is why they are considering drafting Murray.  This is similar to the way the Bills viewed Tyrod Taylor-JAG who will never be a franchise QB.  If anyone with a QB need thought of Rosen as a franchise QB, they would have offered Arizona a #1 pick.  So far, according to rumors, the best offer is a #2.  

To my knowledge, there is no evidence to support the bolded statement.  What am I missing?  Are you saying this because no one has traded for Rosen so far?  Are you privy to ongoing negotiations between the Cardinals and other NFL teams?

[Albany,n.y.]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

To my knowledge, there is no evidence to support the bolded statement.  What am I missing?  Are you saying this because no one has traded for Rosen so far?  Are you privy to ongoing negotiations between the Cardinals and other NFL teams?

I've read all the stories & nobody has offered Arizona anything higher than a 2nd.  The best story is the one about Arizona trying to save face.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cardinals-reportedly-receive-two-trade-offers-for-josh-rosen-want-to-save-face-in-deal/

[billieve420]

I wonder if the NFL also don't want this resolved anytime soon as it makes for great television. Arizona make deal on draft day and then pick Murray # 1. If Rosen is traded today everyone knows that Murray is going first and removes all of the mystery.

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I've read all the stories & nobody has offered Arizona anything higher than a 2nd.  The best story is the one about Arizona trying to save face.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cardinals-reportedly-receive-two-trade-offers-for-josh-rosen-want-to-save-face-in-deal/

If you believe the stories, then, teams have already offered AZ a second round pick for Rosen.  That sounds like there are GMs out there who like him.  I don't know what AZ is holding out for, but it's possible a team will up their offer at some point before or during the draft.  Rosen was the 10th overall pick last year.  He didn't play great last year, but he wasn't awful, either, and his supporting cast was putrid. 

 

Rosen is to some extent a de-valued asset, but that's only because of the Cardinals' egregious mishandling of the situation, which has greatly diminished their own negotiating leverage.  But there's really nothing Rosen's done on the field to make teams think he can't succeed in the league.   For a frame of reference, Rosen's rookie passing stats are pretty comparable to Josh Allen's and no one is giving up on Josh Allen at this point.

Edited April 9, 2019 by mannc

[LeGOATski]

I would trade out because I think Murray will tank hard. He's still just a kid. Not a leader. He wanted to play baseball, but is going with the NFL per his dad's wishes because the endorsements will be much better as the #1 pick in the NFL vs just some guy in the MLB.

 

The Cardinals will basically have two college kids (Kliff and Kyler) as the leaders of their team... it's not gonna end well.

[2003Contenders]

If all the reports we hear are true about Kingsbury's infatuation with Murray, the Cardinals' level of interest in him may have artificially upped the perceived value of a QB who may not even be viewed as the top QB in this draft by any of the other 31 teams in the league.

 

My guess is that there is probably a battle being waged among the Arizona decision-makers. First, there is the new head head coach and his camp that want to invest the #1 overall pick in Murray. Then there are the scouts, etc. who have numerous other players with a higher grade.

 

If I were the Cardinals, I would take a page out of what the Chargers did back in 2004. They favored Phil Rivers over Eli Manning (especially given Eli's public desire to play somewhere other than San Diego). However, they understood that Eli was the hotter commodity. So they went ahead and drafted Eli #1 overall and made a deal with the Giants -- that if the player they wanted (Rivers) was still there at #4, they would trade Eli for that pick. That trade netted the Chargers additional first rounders AND they got the QB they really wanted.

 

If my assumption is correct about the scouts' grade of Murray being less than that of, say, Bosa or Q. Williams or whomever, then maybe it would be in the Cardinals' best interest to draft that player at #1 overall and then have a trade in the works with another team in the top 5 to swap that player for the later draft pick, provided that Murray is still there. That would enable the Cardinals to get the player they want AND pick up some extra high draft picks.

 

Of course, if the scouts and Kingsbury are on the same page regarding Murray, then they ought not fool around and should simply take him #1 overall.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

you just know the Pats will bring in a Steve Young/Aaron Rodgers type to replace the HOF great in his last days....

 

 

Drew Lock  at 32  per a Mock Draft 

1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Draft Murray, keep Rosen and choose your savior after 10 months

 

so they will trade with SF for NICKMULLENS ???      

[bigK14094]

Cards are in camp now....and Kingsbury will get his first look in person at Rosen.   I think its possible he might change his mind after he sees him throw day after day.  Might change it either way btw.....so, I am guessing the final decision isn't in concrete yet.

[gjv001]

Support my HC by drafting Murray. Keep Rosen until someone offers a deal I can't refuse.

[klos63]

2 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Draft Murray, keep Rosen and choose your savior after 10 months

 

If you take a QB #1 overall, you basically have to give him the job.

[iinii]

3 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

Exactly. Maybe with Rosen you get to 6-10/7-9 this year and then a 10-6 season with more help for him but that is his limit. Whereas with Murray even if you suffer one growing year if his potential is far greater after for many consistent 10-12 win seasons you go that route everytime.

If and maybe are very convincing 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

CFL?

[row_33]

the politics of it are fun to watch

 

scrap it already and make the GM kind of have to admit an error?

 

 

 

[chris heff]

14 minutes ago, klos63 said:

If you take a QB #1 overall, you basically have to give him the job.

See Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

[row_33]

16 minutes ago, chris heff said:

See Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh.

 

could rotate them on and off each series or play as with Meredith and Morton and Staubach

 

 

[Foxx]

4 hours ago, D521646 said:

I was thinking about this today, and was wondering why I haven't heard any buzz about the Cardinals possibly trading the No 1 overall, and running with Rosen, and taking a QB later in the first or maybe even next year.

 

So I ask, if your the GM of Arizona, would you trade out of the number one overall, stick with Rosen for at least another year, and scoop up all these draft picks to put weapons around Josh?  Is one season enough to judge Rosen?  Granted he was garbage last year, but how much of that was his OL, offensive weapons, and defense?  I though TSW was pretty consensus on the idea that you can't judge accurately how a QB will be with just one year to his resume?  Look at Goff, as an example.

 

I personally think the Cards are making a potentially huge mistake in letting Rosen walk after just one year.  Oh, and before anyone says anything.  No, I was a Josh Allen guy all the way, never waivered, except that one time in band camp, when I fell in love with Mayfield for a brief, but in a weakened state of mind.

 

Thoughts?

 

Tim-

Rosen may well turn out to be a very good QB. however, he is not well suited to run the type of offense that Kingsbury wants to run. Kingsbury's offense is predicated around after the snap actions/reactions whereas Rosen is better suited for pre-snap reads and is thought that he would not do well in situations where he would need to make decisions on the fly.

[hjnick]

4 hours ago, D521646 said:

I was thinking about this today, and was wondering why I haven't heard any buzz about the Cardinals possibly trading the No 1 overall, and running with Rosen, and taking a QB later in the first or maybe even next year.

 

So I ask, if your the GM of Arizona, would you trade out of the number one overall, stick with Rosen for at least another year, and scoop up all these draft picks to put weapons around Josh?  Is one season enough to judge Rosen?  Granted he was garbage last year, but how much of that was his OL, offensive weapons, and defense?  I though TSW was pretty consensus on the idea that you can't judge accurately how a QB will be with just one year to his resume?  Look at Goff, as an example.

 

I personally think the Cards are making a potentially huge mistake in letting Rosen walk after just one year.  Oh, and before anyone says anything.  No, I was a Josh Allen guy all the way, never waivered, except that one time in band camp, when I fell in love with Mayfield for a brief, but in a weakened state of mind.

 

Thoughts?

 

Tim-

Man, people thought/think Buffalo is bad.... Look at Arizona's braintrust...

 

1) Hired a terrible coach that couldn't win at Texas Tech.

2) Drafted a headcase in Rosen last year.

3) Going to waste the #1 pick in the draft on another QB (Murray).

4) Going to MAYBE get a 2nd round pick for Rosen after 1 year.

5) Murray is going to be a BUST!

[chris heff]

4 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

could rotate them on and off each series or play as with Meredith and Morton and Staubach

 

 

Or let them battle it out like Aikman and Walsh. Aikman won Walsh was traded to the Saints for a first, second and third round pick.

[rayray808]

I think Arizona has convinced themselves that Murray is the next Baker Mayfield.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I've read all the stories & nobody has offered Arizona anything higher than a 2nd.  The best story is the one about Arizona trying to save face.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cardinals-reportedly-receive-two-trade-offers-for-josh-rosen-want-to-save-face-in-deal/

Trade value goes down when you are publicly shopping someone...

 

a second for a QB who played below average last year says somebody really likes him...

 

If the highest was a 5th , that be bad

[hjnick]

3 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Draft Murray, keep Rosen and choose your savior after 10 months

 

This is probably the best thing to do because Rosen's value right now is terrible.

 

Give him the preseason to raise his stock as a backup and then trade him when a team really needs a QB.