Rebuilding your offense from the inside out

[WideNine]

Good article about the importance of your offensive line. Although written from the Giant's perspective they focus a lot on the moves that Colts made in the offseason to address their line with some quotes from our Frank Reich. Also a cautionary tale for those who think taking or paying for a top-tier running back is a wise move before a team has built a decent line to run behind.

 

 

Shurmur gives the nod to Colts success due largely to their retooling of their offensive line.

[TheBeaneBandit]

I agree. In free agency id target C, G, and TE on offence. 

[mjt328]

Agree 100%. 

 

The most important position is Quarterback. 

But having a good O-Line will make both the running game and passing game better - and can help avoid injuries to that franchise QB.

 

[Chuck Wagon]

41 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

I agree. In free agency id target C, G, and TE on offence. 

 

 

You just going to invent a TE to sign in FA?  Outside of maybe Jared Cook it's a wasteland.

[TigerJ]

Hopefully, Buffalo has the QB they need, so offensive line should be at the top of their priorities for improvement in the offseason.  There should be enough money under the cap, and enough draft picks to do more than one thing, however.

[Magox]

Buffalo should do reasonably within their power to get 2 of the best FA linemen available along with the best blocking/receiving TE for 2019.

 

Then draft WR's, a RB and more O and D linemen.   With that we're good to go.

[SoCal Deek]

Not hard to figure out.  You need a QB and an Offensive Line.  Everything else is a distant second.  Assuming they have their QB, they need to everything they can to start building a long-lasting O Line.  It's about more than just getting good players.  It's about having them all come into their peak at the same time, including the QB.

[Thriftygamer83]

38 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Agree 100%. 

 

The most important position is Quarterback. 

But having a good O-Line will make both the running game and passing game better - and can help avoid injuries to that franchise QB.

 

Nope it depends on the center.  To call out assignments and block protections.  Along with preparations on keeping the Quarterback upright.  Our line is slowly coming together and that’s all that we could hope for at this point.  Groy was a massive disappointment at center and so many things hit us at once. Juan Castillo has been pretty much working with what he’s had.  One of the biggest demoralizing factors was Nate Peterman.  

[mjd1001]

I've changed my position on the OL.  A decade ago, I still held on to the thought that I wanted the best OL in the league (at least top 5). Now, not so much. A great OL is only important if you don't have a good QB.

 

Of course build the best OL you can, and make sure that it isn't "bad", but OL and RB are two areas I don't want to chase someone and 'overpay' for them.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

31 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

You just going to invent a TE to sign in FA?  Outside of maybe Jared Cook it's a wasteland.

 

29 minutes ago, Magox said:

Buffalo should do reasonably within their power to get 2 of the best FA linemen available along with the best blocking/receiving TE for 2019.

 

Then draft WR's, a RB and more O and D linemen.   With that we're good to go.

 

As was pointed out in a number of articles,  Clays not a terrible tight end (excluding the pass at the end of the Miami game) he's just a very overpaid TE, however next year his salary is reasonable for the position.  If there aren't any better options out there, keep Clay for another year, maybe use a 2nd or a 3rd round pick on a TE to for the following year.  Croom also with another year under his belt could be a good #2 TE.

 

It's great to get rid of people, but you have to find a better replacement and also need to look at his salary vs production.

[MJS]

40 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Hopefully, Buffalo has the QB they need, so offensive line should be at the top of their priorities for improvement in the offseason.  There should be enough money under the cap, and enough draft picks to do more than one thing, however.

 

TE is just a wasteland around the league right now. There are only a handful of guys that are putting up stats. Likely have to draft one, or at least find some guys who can contribute in the run game.

[wppete]

Very simple here, in the first round Draft Jonah Williams OT, Alabama. Move either him or Dawkins to LG. Sign the Best Center on the market and draft another Guard and another OT in the mid rounds.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by wppete

[NoHuddleKelly12]

2 minutes ago, wppete said:

Very simple here in the first round. Draft Jonah Williams OT, Alabama. Move either him or Dawkins to LG. Sign the Best Center on the market and draft another Guard and another OT in the mid rounds.

I like it—simple yet effective at addressing glaring needs early 

[WhoTom]

43 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Not hard to figure out.  You need a QB and an Offensive Line.  Everything else is a distant second.  Assuming they have their QB, they need to everything they can to start building a long-lasting O Line.  It's about more than just getting good players.  It's about having them all come into their peak at the same time, including the QB.

 

I agree with most of that, but you also need receivers who can catch. I wouldn't call that a distant second.

 

 

[Bing Bong]

53 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I've changed my position on the OL.  A decade ago, I still held on to the thought that I wanted the best OL in the league (at least top 5). Now, not so much. A great OL is only important if you don't have a good QB.

 

Of course build the best OL you can, and make sure that it isn't "bad", but OL and RB are two areas I don't want to chase someone and 'overpay' for them.

Same here. It's just gets so darn expensive and good O Lines crop up out of nowhere when teams make a concerted effort to build them. More out of simply having favorable contracts elsewhere and having a solid window to invest in the line. 

 

Regardless when you have an over acheiving line teams don't start paying 5 guys one after the other until it becomes unsustainable. It's more about striking gold cheap. Maybe 1 or 2 (maaaybe) bluechip expensive guys, garbage dive for high value Ritchie types, and hope for good rookie contracts to fill in the blanks. 

 

Teams with great OL have that reputation for 2 or 3 years for a reason. It falls apart, too hard to keep so many high caliber vets. The ones that do crop up strike gold and ride that wave on good value for as long as possible but every team cuts their losses at some point. Too expensive to hoard 5 players in a not so deep position group around the league.

 

I"m all about trenches and prefer DL. But I think you re-sign most of your players either with a pass rushing ability, secondary, QB and WR. And if you got money tied up (for players worth the salary), you're set to constantly draft trenches on cheap rookie contracts always looking for that perfect window of bargain values.

 

That's one reason I didn't like the Star signing.. purely out of philosophy.. but there weren't many great FAs last year and we DO need to spend the CAP going forward. We're in a strange position but once we lock down high priced elite talent is when we can put our contracts where our team identity finds itself winning. It's always a matter of circumstance. If you have Aaron Donald. You build a team around Donald. Can't stick to any one way to build a team when the chips fall.

 

Seahawks are a great example. Expensive top OL and Lynch with young Wilson and Legion of Boom on fantastic contracts. Morphed into the Wilson and Wagner show in as a smooth of a rebuild as you can call one.

Edited December 20, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[ctk232]

2 hours ago, WideNine said:

Also a cautionary tale for those who think taking or paying for a top-tier running back is a wise move before a team has built a decent line to run behind.

Yep - does anyone wonder why no one ever heard DeMarco Murray's name after he left Dallas? Many "top" RBs are made so by the play of the OL and the blocking schemes of the OC and OL Coordinator. A "top" RB can just as quickly regress as the OL regresses over the years as well. 

 

This isn't to discount any elite RB's ability, but at least half or more of every RB's game is due to the OL. Could say this about most offensive skill positions, imo. Anytime you're building an offense, or even a whole team, always start with the trenches.

[without a drought]

33 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Yep - does anyone wonder why no one ever heard DeMarco Murray's name after he left Dallas? Many "top" RBs are made so by the play of the OL and the blocking schemes of the OC and OL Coordinator. A "top" RB can just as quickly regress as the OL regresses over the years as well. 

 

This isn't to discount any elite RB's ability, but at least half or more of every RB's game is due to the OL. Could say this about most offensive skill positions, imo. Anytime you're building an offense, or even a whole team, always start with the trenches.

I've heard his name since, he's about to be named the University of Arizona's running back coach.

[mjt328]

1 hour ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Nope it depends on the center.  To call out assignments and block protections.  Along with preparations on keeping the Quarterback upright.  Our line is slowly coming together and that’s all that we could hope for at this point.  Groy was a massive disappointment at center and so many things hit us at once. Juan Castillo has been pretty much working with what he’s had.  One of the biggest demoralizing factors was Nate Peterman.  

 

Not sure how anyone could say the O-Line is "slowly coming together"...

 

The only guy I would say is a guarantee to return to the starting lineup in 2019 is Dion Dawkins, and many are advocating for a position change due to his struggles this season.  I know there are hopes Wyatt Teller becomes something someday, but he's not shown enough yet to feel confident with him going into the offseason.

 

We have enough resources to overhaul this group in the offseason, and I hope that is the plan.

 

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

I agree. In free agency id target C, G, and TE on offence. 

 

 

The Bills are not likely to get that combination in FA market. 

[mjt328]

57 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Same here. It's just gets so darn expensive and good O Lines crop up out of nowhere when teams make a concerted effort to build them. More out of simply having favorable contracts elsewhere and having a solid window to invest in the line. 

 

Regardless when you have an over acheiving line teams don't start paying 5 guys one after the other until it becomes unsustainable. It's more about striking gold cheap. Maybe 1 or 2 (maaaybe) bluechip expensive guys, garbage dive for high value Ritchie types, and hope for good rookie contracts to fill in the blanks. 

 

Teams with great OL have that reputation for 2 or 3 years for a reason. It falls apart, too hard to keep so many high caliber vets. The ones that do crop up strike gold and ride that wave on good value for as long as possible but every team cuts their losses at some point. Too expensive to hoard 5 players in a not so deep position group around the league.

 

I"m all about trenches and prefer DL. But I think you re-sign most of your players either with a pass rushing ability, secondary, QB and WR. And if you got money tied up (for players worth the salary), you're set to constantly draft trenches on cheap rookie contracts always looking for that perfect window of bargain values.

 

That's one reason I didn't like the Star signing.. purely out of philosophy.. but there weren't many great FAs last year and we DO need to spend the CAP going forward. We're in a strange position but once we lock down high priced elite talent is when we can put our contracts where our team identity finds itself winning. It's always a matter of circumstance. If you have Aaron Donald. You build a team around Donald. Can't stick to any one way to build a team when the chips fall.

 

Seahawks are a great example. Expensive top OL and Lynch with young Wilson and Legion of Boom on fantastic contracts. Morphed into the Wilson and Wagner show in as a smooth of a rebuild as you can call one.

 

Great O-Lines don't last long, mostly because teams don't prioritize drafting that position high or keeping those players in free agency.

 

There is a lot of pressure to draft/keep the STAR running backs and receivers, when it's usually much smarter to spend that money on the O-Line.

 

You watch what happens if Beane/McDermott focus on repairing the O-Line first this offseason, and don't go after a #1 receiver.  Fans are going to pitch a fit.

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, WideNine said:

Good article about the importance of your offensive line. Although written from the Giant's perspective they focus a lot on the moves that Colts made in the offseason to address their line with some quotes from our Frank Reich. Also a cautionary tale for those who think taking or paying for a top-tier running back is a wise move before a team has built a decent line to run behind.

 

 

Shurmur gives the nod to Colts success due largely to their retooling of their offensive line.

 

..."building from the ball out" is an older than dirt philosophy.....Marv tried to go back to it in 2006 as GM with the likes of Dock, Langston Walker, etc........only problem was he had the "wrong beef"......

[Bing Bong]

54 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Great O-Lines don't last long, mostly because teams don't prioritize drafting that position high or keeping those players in free agency.

 

There is a lot of pressure to draft/keep the STAR running backs and receivers, when it's usually much smarter to spend that money on the O-Line.

 

You watch what happens if Beane/McDermott focus on repairing the O-Line first this offseason, and don't go after a #1 receiver.  Fans are going to pitch a fit.

 

 

We need to repair the OL no doubt. I'm ambivalent prioritizing offensive line or receiver since they're not mediocre by any means they're poor. Of course either one needs bolstering. I'm more talking General philosophy and that if we land 5 Marquis lineman like Dallas or Seattle did. When you go from mediocre to Elite offensive line I see that as a short term investment if or when Josh Allen is paid. 

 

Short-term I want to Band-Aid the offense to be as good as possible as soon as possible since I love the contracts we have at secondary. McDermott scheme and Hyde Poyer and white are the legitimate vet building blocks on this team. And drafting any non-quarterback on offense and investing a lot might give us a solid team pretty quickly

 

That's all contingent on Josh Allen though

Edited December 20, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[billspro]

I don’t know if we will be able to find 4 in one offseason, but we need to add 2-3 very good starters.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

I was going to post something to this affect before. My take was looking at the OL of Pittsburgh and Kansas City. They were both down to their 3rd string RB and both Williams and Samuels ran for well over 100 yds and moved the chains at will. The Bills most important off-season move will be to fix the OL with 3-4 key FA and draft picks.

[TheBeaneBandit]

5 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

You just going to invent a TE to sign in FA?  Outside of maybe Jared Cook it's a wasteland.

Eifert would be nice, and yes I know the injury aspect. Gotta take a swing though. Try and draft one as well.

Edited December 21, 2018 by TheBeaneBandit

[BillsVet]

7 hours ago, wppete said:

Very simple here, in the first round Draft Jonah Williams OT, Alabama. Move either him or Dawkins to LG. Sign the Best Center on the market and draft another Guard and another OT in the mid rounds.

 

Using a top 10 pick on a guard is asinine. 

 

Building an OL includes talent.  Coming together as a unit is just as important and sticking another UFA and high draft pick doesn't automatically mean things are good.   

[machine gun kelly]

I want two WR As a speedster like John Brown, and one excellent possession receiver like Sanu or Tate, and a good Guard.  We can afford it and still have holdover money for the stars we have to resign the following year.

 

Then in draft we take that stud from Alabama crimson tide Logan as our first take although he is supposed to be a top five pick.  I don’t  care if we have to bundle picks to get him.  Then TE, and more WR and O-Lineman to solidify this offense.  Look for gems in the undrafted ranks like Foster.  We’d have Jones, Foster, and McKenzie with two experienced WR, along with a better line, and find a TE and RB later in the draft.

 

it’s doable and would dramatically change our offense.  I know some want a CB, but we already have the #1 passing defense, and if we completely load up offense, we’ll see a top flight team.  We can afford it, and have the money and draft picks to sign these guys, along with holding over money for White and others the following to resign, the following year.

 

we still have time before we have to pay Allen big money with a 5 year option, if he turns out to be as good we think he can be for this team.

 

Thats my wish list.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

15 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

As was pointed out in a number of articles,  Clays not a terrible tight end (excluding the pass at the end of the Miami game) he's just a very overpaid TE, however next year his salary is reasonable for the position.  If there aren't any better options out there, keep Clay for another year, maybe use a 2nd or a 3rd round pick on a TE to for the following year.  Croom also with another year under his belt could be a good #2 TE.

 

It's great to get rid of people, but you have to find a better replacement and also need to look at his salary vs production.

Croom, Jones, all O-Line except Dawkins and Teller, Castillo and Clay all need to be released. I think Castillo is the worst O-Line coach in the NFL. At the very least Croom and Castillo need to be gone.

[wppete]

8 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Using a top 10 pick on a guard is asinine. 

 

Building an OL includes talent.  Coming together as a unit is just as important and sticking another UFA and high draft pick doesn't automatically mean things are good.   

 

You simply don’t know what you are talking about says Quenton Nelson.

 

[BillsVet]

41 minutes ago, wppete said:

You simply don’t know what you are talking about says Quenton Nelson.

 

You can't mention Nelson or a guy like Brandon Scherff without including Jonathan Cooper or Chance Warmack.

 

Offensively rebuilding teams don't take guards that high. 

[wppete]

15 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

You can't mention Nelson or a guy like Brandon Scherff without including Jonathan Cooper or Chance Warmack.

 

Offensively rebuilding teams don't take guards that high. 

 

 

Once again you simply don’t know what you are talking about.

 

Look at the offensive line rankings. Last year Indy was dead last in OL ranking. (The would qualify them as a 2018 offensive line rebuild)

 

Indy in 2018 draft OG Quenton Nelson and this season are ranked the #1 offensive line in the NFL.

 

check out the stats for yourself.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?conference=null&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&experience=&tabSeq=2&role=TM

[formerlyofCtown]

13 hours ago, billspro said:

I don’t know if we will be able to find 4 in one offseason, but we need to add 2-3 very good starters.

I think we get 2 Oline.  If he is available I think we will take a shot at Paradise.  Our line may not be as bad as we think.  Its very important for your Oline to play together.  If you have to many new starters you could end up struggling early in the season.

1 hour ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Croom, Jones, all O-Line except Dawkins and Teller, Castillo and Clay all need to be released. I think Castillo is the worst O-Line coach in the NFL. At the very least Croom and Castillo need to be gone.

Absolutely, then we can go 6-10 next season as well.?

Edited December 21, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[Big Gun]

What's funny as I see draft Oline, TE, WR or get Oline FA, Cook TE Oakland, FA WR. There is too many holes to fill in one off season to get Allen the proper help he needs.

 

This team needs 5-8 new and better starting offensive personnel. No way they get that many starting people. So then were looking at 2019 as a 7-9 8-8, another no playoff waste year, defense is a year older and maybe 2020 is a target year. Lets say 8-8 9-7 and squeak in or not so realistically were looking at 2021 when enough pieces are collected to actually be a good team and make a playoff run. By then defensive guys are leaving and the defense now has holes and isn't overly good, it's slightly below average so 2022 is the new target to be good and the cycle goes on and on because McClown was given too much slack, tore it all down without having to do so and didn't have a clue how to rebuild it and isn't a very good coach on top of that. Yay, can't wait for 2023 and a new coach!

[BillsVet]

8 minutes ago, wppete said:

Once again you simply don’t know what you are talking about.

 

Look at the offensive line rankings. Last year Indy was dead last in OL ranking. (The would qualify them as a 2018 offensive line rebuild)

 

Indy in 2018 draft OG Quenton Nelson and this season are ranked the #1 offensive line in the NFL.

 

check out the stats for yourself.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?conference=null&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&experience=&tabSeq=2&role=TM

 

I'd recommend not telling people they don't know what they're talking about every time you disagree.       

 

In this case, correlation does not mean causation. The stats don't explain the effect having a healthy Andrew Luck, a new HC, better RB play, a new offensive coaching staff, or scheme changes mean. 

 

Besides, there isn't a guard prospect coming out in 2019 approaching a Quenton Nelson or Zach Martin level.  Even if there were and Buffalo was there to take them, the lack of positional value for guards combined with other needs like OT and WR matter. 

 

This is especially the case because the free agent market offers few options at WR, TE, or OT compared to guards, which are often there if a team is willing to pay.

 

 

 

 

[wppete]

Thanks for your recommendation but you still don’t know what you are talking about. 

[noacls]

Got to love arm chair GM's who know everything.  Lol

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Most games are won on the line.  You won't win a championship without a very good one.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

12 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Croom, Jones, all O-Line except Dawkins and Teller, Castillo and Clay all need to be released. I think Castillo is the worst O-Line coach in the NFL. At the very least Croom and Castillo need to be gone.

 

Glad your not in charge of anything!  You let  second year #2 pick go who was never expected to be a #1 WR go because he can't preform as the #1 guy (since they don't have anyone else) and a backup TE who's looked decent.  While I don't agree I can at least understand the  desire to prematurely release Jones, but really can't figure out what Croom has done wrong.  

 

So tell me who are the two TE's you plan to sign that will be an immediate marked improvement from Clay and Croom?   And how will their salaries compare?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

The Oline is our number priority. Will make the whole offense better.

 

 

[Chandler#81]

On 12/20/2018 at 3:27 PM, Magox said:

Buffalo should do reasonably within their power to get 2 of the best FA linemen available along with the best blocking/receiving TE for 2019.

 

Then draft WR's, a RB and more O and D linemen.   With that we're good to go.

Only problem I see with this is “the best blocking/receiving TE”. This cat is almost non-existent. You’re either one or the other. The ‘best’ at both translates to a jag. Clay would be this. With TE’s, you pick your poison while telling the defense what your intent is..

We MAY have answered our WR dilemma -at least we’re much better than the start of the season, so I agree it’s not essential we spend big buck$ there. We could really use a strong pass rusher which should be available with our 1st Pick. So yes, spend the big FA dollar$ on OL!!