Allen =Jake Locker 2.0?

[Not at the table Karlos]

6 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

they should have hired jordan palmer  as qb coach and not anderson. did we need a vet? yes but better than that.

They won't hire Palmer because the nfl has rules on how much time team employees can spend with players. Palmer as of now can pretty much work with him whenever he wants for as long as he wants. Palmer also has other clients. 

[The Bills Blog]

Media pressure may eventually force the Bills' hand to replace Allen, and that is a crying shame.

[jrober38]

19 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

I would compare him to Goff. He was terrible his first year but really didn’t have many weapons. Why don’t we believe that getting him some good receivers next year year will make him a much better QB. I looking at the screen names of those complaining the loudest and they were many of the same people screaming for him to “learn on the job”

 

Goff was an elite college football player who put up enormous numbers in the Pac-12. 

 

Unless Sean McVay is coming through the door as our coach, I don't think this comparison makes any sense.

 

Guys like EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, Kyle Boller, Christian Hackenberg are better comparisons. Big, strong, mobile QBs with good intangibles who struggled to play QB. 

[Success]

11 minutes ago, The Bills Blog said:

I was not able to watch the game live yesterday, but I just watched it and I have to say I am deeply troubled by the media and fan reaction. I thought Josh Allen clearly played his best game yesterday. There were a lot of bright spots and a lot of throws from the pocket. You also can't just throw out plays that were called back. They still show his development. It's highly disturbing that everyone is saying he was awful and needs to be be replaced.

Yay!  Sanity.

 

Nice post.

[Lofton80]

Right now he reminds me of Tyrod Taylor. Takes off to run rather than letting plays develop. Difference is Tyrod was a veteran whereas Allan is young and may well develop into to great player.

 

I don't see the Locker comparison at all. I assume Locker was a bust so that is a convenient name to throw out there. Next it will be he's a dead ringer for Kyle Boller or the next Ryan Leaf.  Growing pains are tough but I say give the kid some time.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Lofton80

[xsoldier54]

If you don't have the stomach to watch a rookie QB learn and grow, then you probably shouldn't be watching.  All rookies struggle and make mistakes.  Allen will be a very good QB in this league for a very long time.  This team ain't gonna win the SB this year anyway, so let's just have a little patience with him and see what he can become. 

[DasNootz]

6 minutes ago, Lofton80 said:

Right now he reminds me of Tyrod Taylor. Takes off to run rather than letting plays develop. Difference is Tyrod was a veteran whereas Allan is young and may well develop into

to great player.

 

I don't see the Locker comparison at all. I assume Locker was a bust so that is a convenient name to throw out there. Next it will be he's a dead ringer for Kyle Boller or the next

Ryan Leaf.  Growing pains are tough but I say give the kid some time.

 

If Anderson starts next week, we'll know a lot about Allen's development.  Anderson has proven to be a capable NFL QB.  If comes in with one week of work and throws for 275 and a couple scores we know that it's as much Allen as it is the WRs.  

[BobChalmers]

1 hour ago, Juice_32 said:

I went back and re-watched on gamepass and he actually played better than I thought when watching it live. Most of the times he bailed out of the pocket there was nothing. The one thing I'd really like to see him do better is check out of runs that are set up for failure from the start.

 

Yeah - but that's too hard for these Bills "fans" - they'd rather just give up after FIVE WEEKS - it's what they've been trained to do.

11 minutes ago, Lofton80 said:

Right now he reminds me of Tyrod Taylor. Takes off to run rather than letting plays develop. Difference is Tyrod was a veteran whereas Allan is young and may well develop into

to great player.

 

I don't see the Locker comparison at all. I assume Locker was a bust so that is a convenient name to throw out there. Next it will be he's a dead ringer for Kyle Boller or the next

Ryan Leaf.  Growing pains are tough but I say give the kid some time.

 

This - RIGHT NOW he reminds me of Tyrod, only a lot taller/stronger.  But that's Allen as a 5-GAME rookie. For Tyrod it's his upside.  If Allen is still throwing for 150 yds a game in two years we can give up.

[Jamie Mueller]

2 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Allen to me is a raw less accurate EJ. I felt better about EJ at the same point in their careers. 

 

Sigh...

[Reed83HOF]

46 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Josh Allen is proof that we have no patience to develop a QB. What was said about Allen? He was a project. But how many people said start him anyway? "He'll learn on the job!" "Let's see what we have in him!" Well there you go. 5 starts and we are ready to dump him. I knew this was how it would play out.

It would have been ideal to start getting him in games little by little to get used to the speed, making reads and applying what he was learning while sitting. Not bringing in a true older vet to help him learn (The Jests got his right with McCown) until week 6 is par for the course with this franchise. I suppose the par for the course comment could also be applied to not actually bringing in someone who can actually develop a QB from a coaching standpoint as well. Further more, since we didn't actually do any of the above - you would think that the FO and Coaching staff might have tried to get some offensive players to you know help Nate & Josh (or AJ). I get that Defense is McD's specialty, but I knew going into this season the offense was going to be a train wreck. Why would you fail to do all of this when you drafted the one first round QB who is a major project. If we drafted the other Josh that would be one thing...

10 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

 

Yeah - but that's too hard for these Bills "fans" - they'd rather just give up after FIVE WEEKS - it's what they've been trained to do.

 

This - RIGHT NOW he reminds me of Tyrod, only a lot taller/stronger.  But that's Allen as a 5-GAME rookie. For Tyrod it's his upside.  If Allen is still throwing for 150 yds a game in two years we can give up.

I dunno if we need to wait 2 years, we should know next season IMO; provided we get "good" offensive players in the draft and in FA

[Not at the table Karlos]

15 minutes ago, Jamie Mueller said:

 

Sigh...

 

Where has allen been better than ej at the same point in their careers? They both have similar problems. They're pretty much the same qb right now. Hopefully allen progresses but he has a very long way to go.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Not at the table Karlos

[MAJBobby]

58 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Until I see Anderson play with this offense, I’ll withhold judgement on who is the better QB.  Allen’s pocket presence is a major problem.  Drop back, first read covered, run, get hit.  If our number 1 priority is to win this season, Anderson might be the best bet.  Still an unknown though.  Allen is currently a slower mike Vick in Madden.  

 

 

The No 1 priority should be getting Allen as many reps as possible. If that isnt than it is just another questionable decision from McD 

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, Juice_32 said:

I went back and re-watched on gamepass and he actually played better than I thought when watching it live. Most of the times he bailed out of the pocket there was nothing. The one thing I'd really like to see him do better is check out of runs that are set up for failure from the start.

I re-watched the play when the Bills were 3rd & Goal at the 4, and Allen bailed out of the pocket too early.

 

However, none of our receivers were open on that play. Zay Jones was open very late on the play and Allen threw to him but it was batted down. Had Allen thrown the ball higher, he might have had a touchdown, but that's a big maybe.

 

Allen did not look as awful yesterday as some fans are portraying him to be. In fact he was doing good enough to win, and I believe they would have won had he not gotten hurt.

[starrymessenger]

8 minutes ago, DasNootz said:

 

If Anderson starts next week, we'll know a lot about Allen's development.  Anderson has proven to be a capable NFL QB.  If comes in with one week of work and throws for 275 and a couple scores we know that it's as much Allen as it is the WRs.  

 

Right now it is more Allen (with maybe some Daboll mixed in) than the WRs and the rest of the offence. I have no doubt that our passing game would be much more productive if we had a good, starting calibre NFL QB. But right now we don't have that. And I say that fully realizing that the WR corps is hardly a strength of this team. 

Its really not fair however to expect more from Allen right now. Based on the crooked path on which he began his football journey it's hardly surprising that he is a sandlot variety thrower/runner rather than a polished passer. If he had the benefit of playing three years in a big school program with excellent and intensive coaching the way the other 1st rounders did we would today have a much better idea of what his prospects for development might be. And that's one reason he should not be compared to EJ who had some of the best QB coaching available to college players and still had issues. And the decision to go with Allen was not all just blind speck. He frequently enough makes plays that someone like EJ never did or could. That's why he was a first round talent and EJ, not Josh, should have been drafted in the third or fourth round. 

[Jay_Fixit]

Actually, Locker played pretty well when he was healthy.

 

So no. I wish Allen was Locker at the moment.

 

The Titans also redshirted him his rookie year. Like the Bills could and should have done with Allen.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jay_Fixit

[gobills1212]

2 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Bills fans suck.

 

5 games in and the fan base has turned on Allen already. We all know he is a raw project with a high ceiling so he is going to need minimum 2 years. Just get used to it.

 

If you want to blame Beane/McDermott for not having a capable veteran in here than that is valid.

Just copying so other people later in the convo see this too. He may be good, he may not. If the fans were in charge we could have the 2nd incarnation of peyton manning and we'd never know bc hed be run out of town after his 1st few games looking shaky.  The correct response to 9 out of 10 new threads today could be 'STOP AND TRY HAVING SOME PATIENCE '. Id hate to see what this place will look like once the Bills actually have a REAL problem.

[LABILLBACKER]

Not a terrible comparison but it's still way too early and besides he has zero wr's and oline. I'd be lying if I said there weren't concerns early in this kids seasoning. His accuracy or lack thereof is the number one concern. And you also have to figure that Peterman and Anderson are both gone at the end of the season so we're going to have to draft somebody regardless of the round.

Edited October 15, 2018 by LABILLBACKER

[billspro]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

Locker was a better player. He was a decent football player who was undone by his accuracy, but he understood how to play the game. 

 

Allen looks a lot like Blaine Gabbert. Same pros and cons. 

 

Allen and Gabbert have no similarities at all. 

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

Nobody seems upset that Peterman is being run out of town after the same amount of games. I get it though, one wasn’t hyped to be our franchise guy.

Peterman is a late round draft pick that should not even be on an NFL roster. 

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

He hasn't improved yet. We really need to see what he looks like next year after having the season and a full off-season as the starter.

 

I'm all for drafting another QB in the mid rounds.

 

same here.  there should be some decent ones available.  QB from Northwestern looks great.  I started a thread on this 2 weeks ago and got flamed, likely from the same people now claiming that Allen is a bust (which I was not claiming then or now)  

[Bangarang]

40 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Peterman is a late round draft pick that should not even be on an NFL roster. 

 

But if we are going to talk about it is impossible to judge Allen because of the number games he’s played in and the personnel he is surrounded with, shouldnt that logic also apply to a Peterman?

 

It’s easier to disregard someone when the expectations are extremely low.

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, billspro said:

 

Allen and Gabbert have no similarities at all. 

 

Blaine Gabbert:

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS

 Gabbert has prototypical size and excellent speed for the position. Shows the ability to make the right pre-snap reads. Possesses a quick release and has the arm strength to make all the throws. Well-balanced passer that rarely misses on short-to-intermediate throws. Extremely mobile to extend plays and fast enough to move the chains. Vocal leader and hard worker.

WEAKNESSES

 Trusts his arm too much and puts the ball in harm's way too often. Does not show good touch on passes over the middle and needs to learn to take a little velocity off certain throws. Struggles to throw an accurate deep ball. Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility. Will need to learn a pro style offense.

 

That's pretty much the exact same scouting report we all read about Josh Allen.

 

As I said, all the same pros and cons. Both are big, strong, mobile QBs with big arms who don't play the QB position well. 

[billspro]

7 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Blaine Gabbert:

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS

 Gabbert has prototypical size and excellent speed for the position. Shows the ability to make the right pre-snap reads. Possesses a quick release and has the arm strength to make all the throws. Well-balanced passer that rarely misses on short-to-intermediate throws. Extremely mobile to extend plays and fast enough to move the chains. Vocal leader and hard worker.

WEAKNESSES

 Trusts his arm too much and puts the ball in harm's way too often. Does not show good touch on passes over the middle and needs to learn to take a little velocity off certain throws. Struggles to throw an accurate deep ball. Late feeling pressure at times which neutralizes his very good mobility. Will need to learn a pro style offense.

 

That's pretty much the exact same scouting report we all read about Josh Allen.

 

As I said, all the same pros and cons. Both are big, strong, mobile QBs with big arms who don't play the QB position well. 

 

Is that suppose to prove something? 

 

If you watch the games they play nothing alike. Gabbert came from a college offense that emphasized the screen game, he really struggled with consistency on deep and intermediate throws.

 

Allen is a project QB that came from a vertical passing offense in college. He has more tools than any QB to come out of the draft in recent years. He has not learned to read defenses well yet but has shown some improvement this year. Allen still has a pretty good shot at being a good NFL starter. Allen throws much better on deep and intermediate throws but can struggle with the short game. The exact opposite of Gabbert.

48 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

But if we are going to talk about it is impossible to judge Allen because of the number games he’s played in and the personnel he is surrounded with, shouldnt that logic also apply to a Peterman?

 

It’s easier to disregard someone when the expectations are extremely low.

 

Nope because Peterman doesn’t have an NFL skill set. If the defense takes away the middle of the field he has no chance.

Edited October 15, 2018 by billspro

[GoBills808]

'We never draft a QB with our 1st round pick! Total disregard for the position! We need to draft a QB high, maybe even trade up for one!'

 

...

 

'Not that one!'

 

 

[TSOL]

I feel like Josh Allen, under the proper gudence and development has tons of potential to become a very good quarterback. I also feel like if thrown to the wolves it could vastly affect his abilities. 

 

We will see how it plays out

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 hours ago, Estro said:

I see more Blaine Gabbert, who like Allen, drops his eyes and stares at the pass rush when under pressure.   A fatal QB'ing flaw IMO.

 

What? Allen keeps his eyes downfield. He may suck right now, but he most certaintly doesn't play scared.

[apuszczalowski]

So if you dont have blind faith and support everything they do, you arent a true fan? There are very few here that have actually given up on Allen at this time, but there are many that are getting worried that he isnt gojng to make it as the franchise saviour everyone expected to get this offseason.

 

The problem so far has been that they took a guy who many believed didnt have what was needed to be a starter  without a lot of work and needed to sit an learn to have a chance to be successful. He had the ability to be a starter due to some of his skills/attributes, but there was no guarantee it would work out. He is forced into starting almost immediately because of incompetence in the front office, and the results were as advertised, he does not look like a starting QB in the NFL. 

 

Sure he could still develop, but the odds are against him and the Bill's dont seem to have thought bringing in people who can maximize his talent and develop him was important. How many QBs have come into the league needing to develop as much as Allen and actually make it? How many succeed just by playing more? The QB position has tons of higher ranked and thought of QBs getting drafted and failing.

[Bangarang]

8 minutes ago, billspro said:

 

Is that suppose to prove something? 

 

If you watch the games they play nothing alike. Gabbert came from a college offense that emphasized the screen game, he really struggled with consistency on deep and intermediate throws.

 

Allen is a project QB that came from a vertical passing offense in college. He has more tools than any QB to come out of the draft in recent years. He has not learned to read defenses well yet but has shown some improvement this year. Allen still has a pretty good shot at being a good NFL starter. Allen throws much better on deep and intermediate throws but can struggle with the short game. The exact opposite of Gabbert.

 

Nope because Peterman doesn’t have an NFL skill set. If the defense takes away the middle of the field he has no chance.

 

So the logic only applies to who you want when it fits your narrative? Gotcha

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, billspro said:

 

Allen and Gabbert have no similarities at all. 

They have a ton of similarities.  They both had very average last years in college (Allen didn’t make All-MWC, Gabbert had 16 tds in a spread) and they were unquestioned top 5 picks.  They are guys who get drafted him because they look the part rather than perform on the field.

 

obviously, it doesn’t mean Allen will be Gabbert but there is a comparison to be made.

7 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

What? Allen keeps his eyes downfield. He may suck right now, but he most certaintly doesn't play scared.

He didn’t say scared.  It’s just when a rush comes, you can start looking st the rush instead of downfield.  Great qbs are always looking downfield and to make a pass.  Allen looks to escape the pocket.  It’s one of the problems of playing him this early.

 

and while I have questions about him, I will never question his toughness. 

[billspro]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

So the logic only applies to who you want when it fits your narrative? Gotcha

 

I don’t know what to tell you. Peterman does not have NFL talent. If he did I would be willing to give him a longer look. He just doesn’t have the arm strength. 

 

Allen may not be good but he looks like an NFL QB. I am willing to give him another 13 games to see if he can put it together.

 

I don’t think I would keep Peterman on the roster today. The experiment is over. 

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, billspro said:

 

I don’t know what to tell you. Peterman does not have NFL talent. If he did I would be willing to give him a longer look. He just doesn’t have the arm strength. 

 

Allen may not be good but he looks like an NFL QB. I am willing to give him another 13 games to see if he can put it together.

 

I don’t think I would keep Peterman on the roster today. The experiment is over. 

 

So we can’t judge the guy we want to be good but it’s okay to judge the guy we don’t think will be good under the same circumstances. Do you not see the double standard there?

[GoBills808]

58 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

But if we are going to talk about it is impossible to judge Allen because of the number games he’s played in and the personnel he is surrounded with, shouldnt that logic also apply to a Peterman?

 

It’s easier to disregard someone when the expectations are extremely low.

 

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

So the logic only applies to who you want when it fits your narrative? Gotcha

If you think it's a 'narrative' issue that allows for different projections of Josh Allen and Nathan Peterman, as opposed to a very reasonable analysis of their respective careers and traits thus far, I have no idea what you've been watching on Sundays.

[billspro]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They have a ton of similarities.  They both had very average last years in college (Allen didn’t make All-MWC, Gabbert had 16 tds in a spread) and they were unquestioned top 5 picks.  They are guys who get drafted him because they look the part rather than perform on the field.

 

obviously, it doesn’t mean Allen will be Gabbert but there is a comparison to be made.

He didn’t say scared.  It’s just when a rush comes, you can start looking st the rush instead of downfield.  Great qbs are always looking downfield and to make a pass.  Allen looks to escape the pocket.  It’s one of the problems of playing him this early.

 

and while I have questions about him, I will never question his toughness. 

 

Sorry I should have said I don’t see similarities in their play style.

 

Allen will have to learn to step up in the pocket and keep his eyes down field if he wants to be successful. If he keeps looking at the rush he will bust.

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

So we can’t judge the guy we want to be good but it’s okay to judge the guy we don’t think will be good under the same circumstances. Do you not see the double standard there?

 

I want Peterman to be good, I was rooting for him yesterday. 

 

The fact is first and second round picks always get longer looks. Life isn’t fair.

 

I think we have seen enough of Peterman to know he doesn’t have an NFL arm. There is no point of trying to develop a guy if the talent isn’t there. Just how I see it. 

[Gordio]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

 

So we can’t judge the guy we want to be good but it’s okay to judge the guy we don’t think will be good under the same circumstances. Do you not see the double standard there?

 

 

There is no double standard here.  Peterman doesn't have the minimum tangible skill set to be a NFL Quarterback so why bother running him out there anymore.  Does it finally make sense to you egghead?  

[Bangarang]

Just now, Gordio said:

 

 

There is no double standard here.  Peterman doesn't have the minimum tangible skill set to be a NFL Quarterback so why bother running him out there anymore.  Does it finally make sense to you egghead?  

 

The point isn’t to compare the skill sets of each. Try and keep up.

[Southern Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Goff was an elite college football player who put up enormous numbers in the Pac-12. 

 

Unless Sean McVay is coming through the door as our coach, I don't think this comparison makes any sense.

 

Guys like EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, Kyle Boller, Christian Hackenberg are better comparisons. Big, strong, mobile QBs with good intangibles who struggled to play QB. 

I meant more of a comparison of a QB who really struggled without weapons in his rookie year but turned it around his second year. You don't see it because you are rooting for him to fail so that you can proclaim that you were right all along. It's called confirmation bias. Every post you make is critical of Allen and you want to be shown to be correct.

[TheBrownBear]

Locker is a fair comparison right now.  Question is whether Allen can develop quick enough to succeed in the league.   He's got another year from me before I write him off.

[par73]

Jake Locker is who I thought of when Allen started gaining national attention at Wyoming. I hope it works out differently, but I don't have much confidence.

[dakrider]

Completely useless to judge an NFL QB in his first year.  Not many great QB's looked good as rookies.  Elway didn't, Farve didn't even play but a few downs his first year.  Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, many others had poor rookie years and great careers.   Jared Goff looked terrible 2 years ago -  "in Week 11 when Goff finally made his first start: very. He was very unready."  

 

[jrober38]

26 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

I meant more of a comparison of a QB who really struggled without weapons in his rookie year but turned it around his second year. You don't see it because you are rooting for him to fail so that you can proclaim that you were right all along. It's called confirmation bias. Every post you make is critical of Allen and you want to be shown to be correct.

 

All I want is for the Bills to have competent Quarterback play from their starter. 

 

Allen isn't giving that to them.