Philip Rivers: A Sobering Warning

[Jerome007]

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

[MJS]

But it is the most important piece to the puzzle. And when you have a franchise guy you always know you have a chance.

[CaptnCoke11]

This is genius... ?

[White Linen]

Rivers drought of ends shows us fans how this franchise needs more bricks to build our building taller and taller. 

[The Wiz]

I'm drinking so take your sober post elsewhere.

[Jerome007]

2 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

I'm drinking so take your sober post elsewhere.

Drinking the Bills Koolaid? Watch out! It's addictive

[bobblehead]

I’ll take 5 out of 14

[The Wiz]

If only.  I would have told you you're dumb and you should feel dumb and everyone who read this thread is now dumber for reading it if that were the case.

 

You're pointing out a scenario that I'm sure most bills fans would be happy with as a bad thing.

 

Playoffs 5 times in 14 years vs playoffs 1 time in 18 years.

 

Hard choice.

[Bing Bong]

You need a good GM. That's all there is to it. Somebody at the Chargers built a Superbowl conternder with Gates, Tomlinson, Rivers, and a solid defense.. 

 

Somebody at the Colts had Edgerrin James, Wayne, Harrison, and a solid defense.

 

This guy for the saints has Kamara and Brees, and a solid defense. Brees could get a Superbowl with his current team.

 

Point is nobody is ever going to be able to replicate the Patriots. It's been a staggeringly period of dominance. When you get a transcendent quarterback, you're getting there, but tough titties ya gotta have talent. And you don't even need the quarterback. You realize how different game manager quarterbacks were when they won a Superbowl young? 

 

Big Ben was along for the ride his first SB. Wilson, Brady, Eli. Then there's nerfed Peyton, an Eagles miracle. Brett Favre's SB winning team was absolutely loaded. Ole Dirty B could have ran for 1300 yards on that team.

 

I don't know if you're talking sustained Superbowl success but it really comes down to a game managing QB, or a stud QB, and some very opportunistic rookie contracts. I think no matter what the window for success for any given team is very short and they need great drafts to be there. I'd say it's 70% drafting and 30% quarterbacking if you're married to winning with a HOF QB which isn't always necessary.

[White Linen]

If we haven't GM our Qb won't matter to build a team around him.  Have we saw this done even in our division.  You need more than just a QB.

[reddogblitz]

Last week the Titans beat the Texans.  Sunshine Gabbert had 112 yards passing.  Watson had 300+ yards.  Sunshine's team won.

 

QB is very important and the most important position etc., but it's far from being all you need.

[KD in CA]

Of course it's not just the QB.

 

You need the GM to build the team -- but sometimes the team doesn't get over the hump (like all those Chargers teams earlier in Rivers career)

You need the coach -- and not just a regular season coach, but a coach who can win the critical game, unlike Reid, Levy, Shotty, that idiot who blew the SB for Atlanta, etc.

And you need the QB.

 

So yeah, you need a lot to go right and it can still be derailed in a single elimination playoff tournament.  On the other hand, if you have a decent team, QB and defense, you can get hot for a month and win a championship (Giants).

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

You need a good GM. That's all there is to it. Somebody at the Chargers built a Superbowl conternder with Gates, Tomlinson, Rivers, and a solid defense.. 

 

Somebody at the Colts had Edgerrin James, Wayne, Harrison, and a solid defense.

 

This guy for the saints has Kamara and Brees, and a solid defense. Brees could get a Superbowl with his current team.

 

Point is nobody is ever going to be able to replicate the Patriots. It's been a staggeringly period of dominance. When you get a transcendent quarterback, you're getting there, but tough titties ya gotta have talent. And you don't even need the quarterback. You realize how different game manager quarterbacks were when they won a Superbowl young? 

 

Big Ben was along for the ride his first SB. Wilson, Brady, Eli. Then there's nerfed Peyton, an Eagles miracle. Brett Favre's SB winning team was absolutely loaded. Ole Dirty B could have ran for 1300 yards on that team.

 

I don't know if you're talking sustained Superbowl success but it really comes down to a game managing QB, or a stud QB, and some very opportunistic rookie contracts. I think no matter what the window for success for any given team is very short and they need great drafts to be there. I'd say it's 70% drafting and 30% quarterbacking if you're married to winning with a HOF QB which isn't always necessary.

Getting performance out of very opportunistic rookie K’s is critical under the cap for a rebuilding franchise like us—with the salary cap constraints being what they are and Beane probably having to overpay the 2019 FA’s, maybe the Seahawks model when they started their run with Wilson on his rookie deal leaving space for paying a monster D and key offensive playmakers around him is the way to emulate?

[Dr.Sack]

The process > The QB.

The process > The fans.

The process = McD & Beane.

[Bing Bong]

10 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Getting performance out of very opportunistic rookie K’s is critical under the cap for a rebuilding franchise like us—with the salary cap constraints being what they are and Beane probably having to overpay the 2019 FA’s, maybe the Seahawks model when they started their run with Wilson on his rookie deal leaving space for paying a monster D and key offensive playmakers around him is the way to emulate?

Yeah we need all the cheap talented rookie contract K's we can get..

 

And emulating 2 consecutive Superbowl winning drafts is a good idea sure.

 

What the hell are you talking about haha

[MAJBobby]

2 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

 

Absolutely. So we need to be just like the Patriots 

 

START CHEATING, They do it yearly 

 

skirt the Salary Cap with Tom Brady yearly NOT paying him market value. However Owners invest in his businesses and pay TB12 $200 per physical therapy session (2015) for thier players. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by MAJBobby

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Yeah we need all the cheap talented rookie contract K's we can get..

 

And emulating 2 consecutive Superbowl winning drafts is a good idea sure.

 

What the hell are you talking about haha

All I’m saying is look at the Seahawks since Wilson got paid—basically downhill ever since, but they were unstoppable when they had all the cap room in the world to work with before that. Of course, Cleveland has had all the cap room in the world for all of recent history and that hasn’t gotten them a W yet either, so maybe bad analogy, IDK. Just hoping we hit some gold with our cash in 2019.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 hour ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

 

YEAH

[Bing Bong]

2 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

All I’m saying is look at the Seahawks since Wilson got paid—basically downhill ever since, but they were unstoppable when they had all the cap room in the world to work with before that. Of course, Cleveland has had all the cap room in the world for all of recent history and that hasn’t gotten them a W yet either, so maybe bad analogy, IDK. Just hoping we hit some gold with our cash in 2019.

I'd be the Seahawks in a hot minute. Reload through the draft. Doesn't matter how expensive Wilson is, if they had the exact same Wagner chancellor Sherman draft last year they'd be in the Superbowl in a year or 2

[NoHuddleKelly12]

4 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I'd be the Seahawks in a hot minute. Reload through the draft. Doesn't matter how expensive Wilson is, if they had the exact same Wagner chancellor Sherman draft last year they'd be in the Superbowl in a year or 2

Agreed—but their margin for error was narrowed a lot by Wilson K. You have no chance if your draft classes after don’t hit and no $ to plug holes in FA. I wonder if we will ever see QB money correction in our lifetimes? Rookie signings used to be going the same way before the new CBA. Maybe a new thread topic in there somewhere 

[ocemur]

We need to build a team that's going to win in the '20s, not the '00s. As the league has moved and likely will continue to move towards passing we need a great QB more than ever. You also need the right coach at the right time. Schemes have a shelf life and opposing coaches learn to defeat them. There is no perfect recipe, but basically you need to be willing to push for excellence from the GMs office to the sidelines, on the field and in the trainer's room. Someone, be it the owner or the GM, needs to build an entire organization that out competes other teams. But QB is becoming more important than ever.

[row_33]

Half the NFL has a franchise or better QB, the Bills have not produced one, unless he was well past his prime, since Jim Kelly.

 

 

[Dadonkadonk]

1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

All I’m saying is look at the Seahawks since Wilson got paid—basically downhill ever since, but they were unstoppable when they had all the cap room in the world to work with before that. Of course, Cleveland has had all the cap room in the world for all of recent history and that hasn’t gotten them a W yet either, so maybe bad analogy, IDK. Just hoping we hit some gold with our cash in 2019.

Has less to do with Wilson getting paid and more to do with injuries and Oline.

They paid Sherman, Bennett, Wagner, Thomas, and Chancellor. Problem was Okung was hurt and they let him leave in FA and they traded all world center for a TE they thought  was all world but was not.  If they keep Unger and thier first round pick they would be in far better shape.

[GreggTX]

Rivers is solid, but he's not elite at all. He can't carry a team like Brady or Peyton and the Chargers just haven't nailed a high enough percentage of their draft picks. They aren't that far off though.

[row_33]

5 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Rivers is solid, but he's not elite at all. He can't carry a team like Brady or Peyton and the Chargers just haven't nailed a high enough percentage of their draft picks. They aren't that far off though.

 

An elite isn’t necessary at all, many teams have gone far with an adequate franchise QB, winning SBs and constantly contending for the playoffs. 

 

Half the teams have such a QB each season, look at the passing yards for 2017 and you will find half the teams had a franchise QB, with Rodgers missing due to injury yet counting as a Hall of Fame QB

 

so how have the Bills failed to produce a franchise QB for two decades now?

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

 

The process > The fans.

 

That’s for god damned sure

[Fadingpain]

4 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

I'll give you another sobering thought.

 

Josh in no way shows signs of ever playing on the level of Rivers, who will likely end up in the HOF.

 

Some have suggested Allen projects out to be a Matt Stafford type, if things go well.

 

Matt Stafford?  That's what everyone is so excited about around here?

What the hell has that guy ever done?

 

 

[fansince88]

6 hours ago, The Wiz said:

If only.  I would have told you you're dumb and you should feel dumb and everyone who read this thread is now dumber for reading it if that were the case.

 

You're pointing out a scenario that I'm sure most bills fans would be happy with as a bad thing.

 

Playoffs 5 times in 14 years vs playoffs 1 time in 18 years.

 

Hard choice.

BUT...2 times in 19....

[JoPar_v2]

6 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

Who is this warning for exactly? Because the prevailing opinion around here (and everywhere else) is not “a franchise QB is the only piece the team has to find,” it’s “a franchise QB is the most important piece the team has to find.” 

 

Note the difference and save the “warnings.”

[Fr. Jerk]

6 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

 

[Gugny]

The Chargers missed the playoffs so much because of coaching.  Norv Turner.

 

To my knowledge, they are the only team in NFL history to lead the league in offense and defense and NOT make the playoffs.

 

The Bills haven't had a great head coach, in my opinion, since Wade Phillips.  Even WITH an elite/franchise QB, without a decent head coach, wins are hardly guaranteed.

[Tenhigh]

4 hours ago, row_33 said:

Half the NFL has a franchise or better QB, the Bills have not produced one, unless he was well past his prime, since Jim Kelly.

 

 

For 8 games Bledsoe filled that void.  

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

I'll give you another sobering thought.

 

Josh in no way shows signs of ever playing on the level of Rivers, who will likely end up in the HOF.

 

Some have suggested Allen projects out to be a Matt Stafford type, if things go well.

 

Matt Stafford?  That's what everyone is so excited about around here?

What the hell has that guy ever done?

 

 

 

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

But he sucks.  

 

Hes also a QB that lead the league in 4th QTR comebacks 2 straight seasons. 

 

 

[billsredneck1]

4 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Has less to do with Wilson getting paid and more to do with injuries and Oline.

They paid Sherman, Bennett, Wagner, Thomas, and Chancellor. Problem was Okung was hurt and they let him leave in FA and they traded all world center for a TE they thought  was all world but was not.  If they keep Unger and thier first round pick they would be in far better shape.

their problem was payday coming at the same time for too many players.  i think we will see mcbeane do a good job with his drafting and staggering contract years so that a winning core of players is sustainable.

[KRT88]

7 hours ago, bobblehead said:

I’ll take 5 out of 14

which is better

 

5 out of 14

or

1 out of 18?

 

 

40 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

 

the modern day Archie Manning.

 

 

[aristocrat]

Stafford on pace to break Brees and Manning’s yards records.  Problem is they can never put a defense with him.

[PromoTheRobot]

So Phillips is elite because he picked apart the supposed worst team in in the NFL for a half? Then couldn't do jack in the second half?

Edited September 19, 2018 by PromoTheRobot

[george c]

Great teams are built through the draft by GM s who do their homework and do NOT miss on picks. So far, McBeane is off to a rocky start, and Zay Jones was a HUGE miss. This won’t help Josh.... and can not happen again. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by George C

[chaccof]

The Bills have an example to follow - the late 1980's team.  They get Bruce Smith in the mid 80's and build a solid defense around him, they pick up Kent Hull and Kelly when the USFL blows up, they bring in Polian around the same time and then bring in Levy midway through the 86 season.  They build a fantastic offensive line with Ritcher, Ballard, and Wolford some of who were already there.  They build the offense around Reed and then get Thurman in '88 and away we go.  And by the way, they brought in a superb special teams coach and had a top-tier special teams group.  

 

Kelly was certainly a key piece of the puzzle, but not the only piece.  I'm guessing that Allen can be a great QB too, but he can't do it alone.