Philip Rivers: A Sobering Warning

[BillsVet]

Some people have way too much time on their hands starting click-bait or otherwise type threads.  Waaaay too much time. 

 

"You could have the franchise QB and still not win."  Unreal.

[apuszczalowski]

I thought this was going to be about him and his 8 children and still wanting more.

I think he is secretly trying to make his own team to enter the league.....

[corta765]

Truth is this though. Rivers lack of success comes down to a team never being truly put around him which stems to how cheap ownership is there. As long as your owner isn't Dan Snyder in terms of interference, if they will pay players and do their best to acquire talent you shouldn't have an issue like Rivers does with the Chargers. The Chargers frugalness stems literal their entire existence.

Edited September 19, 2018 by corta765

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

So Phillips is elite because he picked apart the supposed worst team in in the NFL for a half? Then couldn't do jack in the second half?

No, he's elite based on what he's done in a 17 year career. 

 

What the hell is the matter with people around here?

[Blokestradamus]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

 

 

The staggering fact is that he got better once Calvin Johnson left the game.

[Jerome007]

10 hours ago, The Wiz said:

If only.  I would have told you you're dumb and you should feel dumb and everyone who read this thread is now dumber for reading it if that were the case.

 

You're pointing out a scenario that I'm sure most bills fans would be happy with as a bad thing.

 

Playoffs 5 times in 14 years vs playoffs 1 time in 18 years.

 

Hard choice.

Yeah so dumb but you brainiac can't even grasp a damn post.

 

I did put I'd take results like Packers or Saints over the Bills drought. And yeah, I'd take 5 out of 14 instead of 1 in 17, genius. The point of this thread, explained for you, is that many fans think if the Bills have at last a franchise QB, all is settled, while besides with Peyton and Brady, no team has been automatic for playoffs and legit contenders even if they did have superstar QBs. Keeping with arch-rivals, Marino anyone? 

 

And yeah I'll still take a franchise QB on the team anytime. Man you're dense.

 

 

[sleeby]

Wait!  A football team needs more than a great QB?  Whatchutalkinbout?  Ha.

 

Dominating the lines is huge.  Great defense can also win with a game manager QB - I could see tyrod winning if he had a number 1 or 2 defense on his bench. 

[Big Turk]

10 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

 

I think what it points out is that not only do you need them to very good, but you need them to be very good at KEY TIMES in games.  Statistically there probably isn't much difference between Rivers, Roethlesberger and Rodgers in the grand scheme of things, but Rivers has a history of not making the plays when the team actually needs them to be made while the others do.  That is what causes a team to end up 9-7 and out of the playoffs instead of 11-5  and winning the division or being a wildcard at the end of the year.

 

Rivers has had teams that are easily good enough to have made the playoffs at least 8 or 9 times in his career.

Edited September 19, 2018 by matter2003

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

10 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

 

Rivers is a HOF QB, no doubt. But it takes more than one player to win championships. Even a HOF calibur QB needs weapons, protection, and (especially when it comes to winning championships) a good/great defense. When has SD/LA had a top tier or close defense?

[TigerJ]

Obviously, a franchise QB is not the only ingredient of a successful team, but it is probably the most important one.  If you have it, then you can work on the other stuff.  If you don't, than obtaining one is at the top of your wish list.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

For 8 games Bledsoe filled that void.  

Flutie had his moments here too--was also better than Fitzmagic over the long haul 

[Nihilarian]

5 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

I'll give you another sobering thought.

 

Josh in no way shows signs of ever playing on the level of Rivers, who will likely end up in the HOF.

 

Some have suggested Allen projects out to be a Matt Stafford type, if things go well.

 

Matt Stafford?  That's what everyone is so excited about around here?

What the hell has that guy ever done?

I completely disagree. Josh Allen made his first start after getting ALL the first team reps for the first time for the Chargers game. And when QBs spit reps so much it doesn't give anyone enough time to sync with the receivers on the team. 

 

Then you have a bad O line, lousy receiving corps and NO run game to take pressure off the QB so he is mostly in 3rd and long all game. No to mention  that the one part of the team that was supposed to be good keeps allowing the team to get into a big hole points wise from the start. This defense was supposed to be decent and it is among the very worst in the league. 

 

All of that makes it incredibly difficult for any QB to succeed and especially so for a rookie QB. "IF" Allen survives this season somewhat intact I think he will be much better then both Rivers, Stafford. He can't do it alone though and no QB can. 

 

 

Lastly, Matt Stafford has had the very unfortunate luck to never have a big time RB or top defense to help him win games during the same season or top coaching for that matter. The man has thrown for over four thousand yards for eight years now and they still can't seem to build a fully competent team around him. When they did finally get a top defense they were 28th in rushing so they were a one trick pony team on offense.  Need balance all around. 

 

Rivers has had bad luck too as his 2006 team under shotty goes 14-2 with a top 2 offense and a top 10 defense and they run into the buzz saw of the Patriots in the playoffs at Qualcomm stadium in SD. 

[Charles Romes]

When you have great one it often masks problems in an organization.   Marino kept Tom Olivadotti employed for 8 years.  

[Nihilarian]

25 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

The staggering fact is that he got better once Calvin Johnson left the game.

Man that's a lot of passing, 727 attempts passing in one season is crazy. The most Rivers ever attempted was 661. Brady 637. Brees 673. 

[416BillsFan]

Having a franchise QB is important. Not having a dysfunctional organization is equally or more important. The Oakland & Washington's incompetence over the years have averted eyes from the Chargers' brazen idiocy. From the SD stadium & LA relocation debacle, to the Bosa situation, to firing coaches at the wrong time, Eli (well his agent & father really) look smarter and smarter for refusing to play there.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

21 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Obviously, a franchise QB is not the only ingredient of a successful team, but it is probably the most important one.  If you have it, then you can work on the other stuff.  If you don't, than obtaining one is at the top of your wish list.

Very true.   Part of the reason Peyton had so much trouble in Indy winning it all.  

then the same mistakes were repeated with Luck

 

[BringBackOrton]

11 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

 

A lot of us have high hope Josh Allen might at last be that all elusive “franchise QB” that would help the Bills be a winning team for years to come. And I’m one of them.

 

But Rivers again dismantling the Bills have me realizing this: can anyone doubt he is a franchise, elite QB? His play and stats are amazing. While Peyton, Brady and Rodgers were the top guys, Brees and Rivers were certainly close and among a lot of the Top 5 for the last DECADE.

 

Yet the Chargers made the playoffs only 5 times in the 14 seasons Rivers was there… Sobering fact you need more than a great QB, how much awesome it is. I think Rodgers is the best, yet the Packers success pales compare to the Cheatriots, and even to Manning’s Colts and Broncos.

 

I’d take the Packers and Saints’ records and SB win over the Bills’ drought, but the point is that a great QB is not the complete answer. And some teams did win the Superbowl with “manager type” QBs. Anyway, even if just for entertainment’s sake, let’s hope Allen becomes a star! But that maybe not be the final piece of the puzzle, just a good chunk of it.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.  Who are you warning?  The fans that even if their QB turns out to be a HoFer, we may not win a SB?  Thanks, man.

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

But he sucks.  

 

Hes also a QB that lead the league in 4th QTR comebacks 2 straight seasons. 

 

 

honestly. He turns into the posterboy of a quarterback we don't want: a good to great quarterback that isn't in the elite tier. Why wouldn't we want him.. so confused.

.

When you limit your options to Brees Brady  or Rodgers.. you're gonna have a bad time.

[iinii]

8 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

 

so how have the Bills failed to produce a franchise QB for two decades now?

 

Ineptitude?

[Bing Bong]

7 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Matt Stafford?  That's what everyone is so excited about around here?

What the hell has that guy ever done?

Dude please. I would be ecstatic to have a Stafford clone. He also one of the few quarterbacks that doesn't appear to need the best receiver talent. That's a fantastic style of playing style for our roster. He seemed to get better when he lost Calvin Johnson, meaning he prefers not to toss up balls for grab but operate with a mind for reading defenses and finding the open receivers better than the next guy,. You're set up to be disappointed pining for the next HOF quarterback. Start with hoping with all your might that JA develops to the level of Stafford talent, and then start dreaming he can improve to HOF a quarterback, he's not far away given a perfect storm of events. IF, big if, Stafford wins a SB, he's a serious HOF contender. and he'd probably have a slim chance to do it on the Eagles roster, Jaguars roster, Steelers roster.

 

He's thrown for 5000 yards for starters. Be reasonable on what you want your quarterback to do.

[row_33]

1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Flutie had his moments here too--was also better than Fitzmagic over the long haul 

 

Bledsoe and Flutie and Orton were franchise men but they were on the steep decline of their peak years

 

landfill or clean fill if you like

 

[foreboding]

8 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

I'll give you another sobering thought.

 

Josh in no way shows signs of ever playing on the level of Rivers, who will likely end up in the HOF.

 

Some have suggested Allen projects out to be a Matt Stafford type, if things go well.

 

Matt Stafford?  That's what everyone is so excited about around here?

What the hell has that guy ever done?

 

 

This post won't win me many friends, but Stafford is not the QB he is like.

 

Stafford = Small, accurate, big arm  (not Josh)

Blake Bortles = Huge, moves but not an ankle breaker, huge arm, questionable accuracy, getting better with time

 

We might have our Blake Bortles. Hope he is more Big Ben, but...

 

 

[row_33]

37 minutes ago, foreboding said:

This post won't win me many friends, but Stafford is not the QB he is like.

 

Stafford = Small, accurate, big arm  (not Josh)

Blake Bortles = Huge, moves but not an ankle breaker, huge arm, questionable accuracy, getting better with time

 

We might have our Blake Bortles. Hope he is more Big Ben, but...

 

 

 

Stafford, Bortles, Ben are all franchise QBs

 

Ben is a HoF

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Rivers is lacking something. Never wins the big games. 

[row_33]

11 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Rivers is lacking something. Never wins the big games. 

 

runs into better teams eventually

 

[Like A Mofo]

A sobering fact: From my count (i could be wrong by 1 or 2)

 

31 different QB's in SUPER BOWL history (just keeping this argument to Super Bowls) have won at least 1.

 

31 out of 52 seasons, 28-32 teams in the league most years.

 

Do the math, lets say over those 52 years there have been an average of 28 teams vying for the SB at the same time. 52 * 28 = 1456 different teams different years over that time frame.

 

And of the 52 winners, only 31 DIFFERENT QB's.

 

0.02% of the time.

 

The odds are super slim folks. What every fan should root for is a QB that gives the Bills a LEGIT chance to win, maybe 4 out of say 12 years. And hope we get 1.

 

Stop comparing to Brady, Manning or the like. Those odds are amazingly slim.

 

[RyanC883]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

 

yep.  the team around him is awful.   no running game, below-average D.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

runs into better teams eventually

 

 

Look at his playoff body of work. He’s a choker 

[BillsFan130]

Ya I also like to use Brees as an example.

 

Sure he has a SB ring.

 

But post SB his Team struggled for a few years even as dominant as he was

 

Then last year they get a good defence and run game and they almost go back to the SB.

 

Definitly is a team game. With the QB being the most important role of course though 

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Look at his playoff body of work. He’s a choker 

 

when Brady and Peyton squared off in a playoff game, one had to lose

 

ask your grade 6 teacher, during your recess, today,  if you can't grasp this basic sports concept

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by row_33

[reddogblitz]

11 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Has less to do with Wilson getting paid and more to do with injuries and Oline.

 

Their offensive line has never been good in the Pete Carroll era. They let Okung go because he's not very good.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

26 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

when Brady and Peyton squared off in a playoff game, one had to lose

 

ask your grade 6 teacher, during your recess, today,  if you can't grasp this basic sports concept

 

 

Chill Philly- didn’t know you lurked here. 

 

PS: you’re not elite you big choker pants. Google Rivers and Choke. Watch your smartphone melt with hits. 

 

Also  don’t give me Brady and Manning when you lose to mark Sanchez. 

 

And you’re not elite when you’ve made the playoffs once in nearly a decade. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[BillsSbSoon]

6 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Stafford on pace to break Brees and Manning’s yards records.  Problem is they can never put a defense with him.

Theyve had some solid defenses there. They havent had much of a run game at all,thats been their problem.

[Matt_In_NH]

Thats it! Im jumping.....see ya fellas.....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[row_33]

30 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Chill Philly- didn’t know you lurked here. 

 

PS: you’re not elite you big choker pants. Google Rivers and Choke. Watch your smartphone melt with hits. 

 

Also  don’t give me Brady and Manning when you lose to mark Sanchez. 

 

And you’re not elite when you’ve made the playoffs once in nearly a decade. 

 

butterfly net-laden men coming over today?

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Matt Stafford has quietly been one of the best QBs in the league for the past seven seasons:

 

 

 

Those seasons with sub 60% completion aren’t so fantastic.  15-17 are solid tho

 

 

He does have the same number of pro bowl appearances as TT ...?

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

Stafford, Bortles, Ben are all franchise QBs

 

Ben is a HoF

 

 

I can't believe the expectations we have. Bortles is a franchise QB, far from perfect, but he can win a lot of games with a strong team.. and he's cheap.

 

Dalton is a franchise QB by every definition of a word. Quarterback is the most important position in football, but being a team sport means you take your franchise quarterback that can almost always give you a win even on his worse day as his team carries him.

 

If we truly want to aim for the next Big Ben or better (or worse, our FO), and are going to keep shuffling quarterbacks that aren't "good enough" to win any given game by themselves, then we're never going to have success until we get the incredible luck of getting THAT guy. And when we do we'll be disappointed on how many quarterbacks we wasted time on. It's the most self destructive approach for a team.

 

Not to piss you off but you are a Packers fan right? feels like you've implied it. One of my favorite Packers stories was when Brett Favre commented "took him long enough" when Aaron Rodgers won the superbowl. Super jackass thing to say, but Brett recognized that he, a 3 time MVP in a row, couldn't win with many of his rosters. And knew when he left the Packers that they were starting to look very good. He expected someone of Rodgers' talent to win because he had the supporting cast Favre himself thought he could win with on that team, after about a decade of knowing he just didn't have a roster to go all the way.

 

Brett saw what could be done in 1998 when he saw his defense was potent, his offensive line was so good, Dorsey Levins (who was an okay runningback) ripped off for like 1300 years. He could throw Antonio Freeman for 1400 yards. Chmura was no slouch. Brett in his 2nd or 3rd MVP campaign knew he wouldn't win without that team. He knew he'd struggle with Donald Driver and Bubba Franks. He knew Ahman Green's production didn't have the defense to support the duel threat offense.

 

Brett knew his 2nd to last year on the Vikings was loaded calling it "the best team he's ever been on" (not true, 1998: Brett don't be petty about GB), but good god it was good. A prime Sidney Rice, offensive line, and Adrian Peterman.

 

Point is Brett knows way more than we do. He was one of the best quarterbacks for a very long time and knew when he could win with a supporting cast. And in his 20 years, he realizes he might have played on like 5 superbowl caliber teams (being generous with his Vikings team and last year on the Packers). No, a quarterback can't win alone, ever.

 

AND BOY DID BRETT LOVE THE COMBINATION OF AN ALL-SEASON LONG VICODEN BINGE WITH AN MVP AWARD. Who does that?? Amazing human being regarding his body's constitution.

46 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Chill Philly- didn’t know you lurked here. 

 

PS: you’re not elite you big choker pants. Google Rivers and Choke. Watch your smartphone melt with hits. 

 

Also  don’t give me Brady and Manning when you lose to mark Sanchez. 

 

And you’re not elite when you’ve made the playoffs once in nearly a decade. 

Cmon man you're being a bigger jackass than drunk me last night. You can't even blame on being drunk. it's early afternoon. Unless you can lol. I'll give you a pass if you're drunk at 3pm cause that's just swag.

24 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

butterfly net-laden men coming over today?

 

idk man, dude's lost it today. I'd wager about 2 different posters go off the rails a day and try to piss people off as much as they humanly can. I did it last night. Super fun.

 

Then the next day they're back to normal. Relapse every Sunday.

Edited September 19, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I can't believe the expectations we have. Bortles is a franchise QB, far from perfect, but he can win a lot of games with a strong team.. and he's cheap.

 

Dalton is a franchise QB by every definition of a word. Quarterback is the most important position in football, but being a team sport means you take your franchise quarterback that can almost always give you a win even on his worse day as his team carries him.

 

If we truly want to aim for the next Big Ben or better (or worse, our FO), and are going to keep shuffling quarterbacks that aren't "good enough" to win any given game by themselves, then we're never going to have success until we get the incredible luck of getting THAT guy. And when we do we'll be disappointed on how many quarterbacks we wasted time on. It's the most self destructive approach for a team.

 

Not to piss you off but you are a Packers fan right? feels like you've implied it. One of my favorite Packers stories was when Brett Favre commented "took him long enough" when Aaron Rodgers won the superbowl. Super jackass thing to say, but Brett recognized that he, a 3 time MVP in a row, couldn't win with many of his rosters. And knew when he left the Packers that they were starting to look very good. He expected someone of Rodgers' talent to win because he had the supporting cast Favre himself thought he could win with on that team, after about a decade of knowing he just didn't have a roster to go all the way.

 

Brett saw what could be done in 1998 when he saw his defense was potent, his offensive line was so good, Dorsey Levins (who was an okay runningback) ripped off for like 1300 years. He could throw Antonio Freeman for 1400 yards. Chmura was no slouch. Brett in his 2nd or 3rd MVP campaign knew he wouldn't win without that team. He knew he'd struggle with Donald Driver and Bubba Franks. He knew Ahman Green's production didn't have the defense to support the duel threat offense.

 

Brett knew his 2nd to last year on the Vikings was loaded calling it "the best team he's ever been on" (not true, 1998: Brett don't be petty about GB), but good god it was good. A prime Sidney Rice, offensive line, and Adrian Peterman.

 

Point is Brett knows way more than we do. He was one of the best quarterbacks for a very long time and knew when he could win with a supporting cast. And in his 20 years, he realizes he might have played on like 5 superbowl caliber teams (being generous with his Vikings team and last year on the Packers). No, a quarterback can't win alone, ever.

 

AND BOY DID BRETT LOVE THE COMBINATION OF AN ALL-SEASON LONG VICODEN BINGE WITH AN MVP AWARD. Who does that?? Amazing human being regarding his body's constitution.

Cmon man you're being a bigger jackass than drunk me last night. You can't even blame on being drunk. it's early afternoon. Unless you can lol. I'll give you a pass if you're drunk at 3pm cause that's just swag.

 

I think I was debating with Phil Rivers... he needs to know the truth. 

 

Even if i was drunk, this thread is sobering. 

[Bing Bong]

11 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

He does have the same number of pro bowl appearances as TT ...?

He probably was the replacement Tyrod was for as an alternate so he could you know.. play in the playoffs.

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

I think I was debating with Phil Rivers... he needs to know the truth. 

 

Even if i was drunk, this thread is sobering. 

Lol that's good stuff, being serious, no /s

[ctk232]

15 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I don't know if you're talking sustained Superbowl success but it really comes down to a game managing QB, or a stud QB, and some very opportunistic rookie contracts. I think no matter what the window for success for any given team is very short and they need great drafts to be there. I'd say it's 70% drafting and 30% quarterbacking if you're married to winning with a HOF QB which isn't always necessary.

Rest of the post too, pretty spot on. If we're talking winning the SB, it's the perfect storm of events going right, not just in the years leading up to it, but during that season as well. So many different kinds of teams have won SBs - game manager QBs with great defenses, HOF/Stud QBs and solid defenses, and even teams playing their backup QB (Eagles).

 

A million things can contribute to a successful SB run, including those mentioned in the quoted post, but last season we saw a year with exceptional parity among teams in the league. It was a large part of the reason why the Bills made the playoffs, but it also opened the door to give other teams a chance that wouldn't even be perennial contenders otherwise. 

 

One last piece to this perfect storm was also alluded to in the quoted post, which is drafting in relation to cap space and the window of opportunity. You can have the most talented roster in the league, but you will likely struggle to keep all those players for extended contracts without losing cap space. Every single player on the team has to be performing at that level during the small window of years when a team can literally afford to have them all playing at that level, before bigger contracts are demanded.

Edited September 19, 2018 by ctk232