4_kidd_4 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 25 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: As for domes, I'm old and cranky, I don't party at tailgates like I used to, and I don't like freezing or getting soaked. So guess which I choose? To stay home where you’re less likely to shatter a hip? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Didn't the same question get answered by the same County Executive a few months ago? Where's the news WGRZ? Are they going to ask him every 6 months for an update? Yes, every six months as a maximum and this has been ongoing since Ralph crooked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Seems to me that the Pegulas want to build a new stadium but want some state assistance so they don’t have to fund it entirely on their own. They are posturing here with local politicians in hopes of getting some public $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, teef said: I hate it when people spell Mark with a c. It’s just not the right way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasons1992 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said: As for domes, I'm old and cranky, I don't party at tailgates like I used to, and I don't like freezing or getting soaked. So guess which I choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I'm no "expert" on the subject, but I've done a ton of research over the years. IMO, a lot of the "hold up" in talks/decisions is based on the looming CBA and its renegotiation, as well as the current stadium lease. The current G-4 program is based on league revenue, which is at an all-time high, and steadily increasing (despite claims of viewership decreases). As the revenue goes up, in theory, so too should the annual G-4 (likely to be revised as "G-5") dollar amount allowance. If it does, and to what extent, is unknown, but it did increase from the G-3 program of the previous CBA ($50 mil IIRC). One thing to consider is that the annual league allowance is for all stadium projects league-wide, not per instance. So if 2 teams request assistance with renovations at say $30 mil each in the same year, that $60 mil is deducted from the total annual allowance. If a team is planning to build a new stadium or a major retrofit that would cost hundreds of millions of dollars, it would be wise to receive that grant in a year when there are no other projects being partially funded by the league, so timing plays a role as well. I would assume that there are already 2 or 3 premliminary "plans" in place, that were based off of the stadium committee's findings a few years ago, and a general idea of the dollar amounts needed for each plan. That figure will increase with time due to inflation, but a general ball-park figure is known. And since there is more than likely going to be some type of state funding involved, neither the Bills nor the state will want to come out and give any truly revealing comments as to their intentions, regardless of which plan is chosen. But the comments in the article in the OP suggest that the state would prefer to spend on a retrofit of New Era, since that would be much cheaper than a new stadium (and the current G-4 program actually allows for more league funds for a renovation, than it does a new stadium, $250 mil as opposed to $200 mil). Plus, that would kick the "new stadium can" down the road 20-30 years, for a different politician to have to deal with... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said: It's the WNY economy! Where will the money come from? Taxes are not a solid option, and ticket/parking/concession prices will fall far short. New Era is appreciated, but far from the big name corporate "stadium naming" entities that the other "new fangled" stadiums have found. I just don't see it in the future. Nothing will ever happen till the current bonds are fully amortized. Hopefully the owner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said: To stay home where you’re less likely to shatter a hip? Oh, go slide down the upper deck rail, you whipper-snapper. Edited July 25, 2018 by PromoTheRobot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4_kidd_4 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Oh, go slide down the upper deck rail, you whipper-snapper. Ha! OK, you win this round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said: Domes football doesn't belong in Buffalo. Domes suck in general and sort of take away any variety in terms of location. You know what sucks even more? Sitting in the pouring rain and/or freezing cold. The sooner the dome is built the better. Edited July 25, 2018 by LabattBlue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, RochesterRob said: We're not hearing much about a new stadium because any of the key players involved don't want to pay for it. When was the last time a Governor with a strong Buffalo connection sat in Albany? You're joking right? The current Governor just absolutely squandered a billion of tax dollars on the "Buffalo Miracle". The only miracle is that he hasn't been arrested along with everyone else involved in planning that completely corrupt waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Fadingpain said: OH no, here comes 20 pages of "stadium" talk. Again. Get over it 47 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Oh, go slide down the upper deck rail, you whipper-snapper. Darwin works in mysterious ways 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: I want to play! ----------------------------------------------- I personally feel we should get an underground stadium. The dome will be made of glass so fans can sit on top, look down on the game and watch it like Jesus does. As to your first point, just go get a picture of Erie County Comptroller Stefan Michajliw frowning. If Poloncarz says the sky is blue, little Stefan Glick will say it's green. These two couldn't agree on which elimination function is titled 'number one' and which is titled 'number two' As to your second point about Jesus watching football? Jesus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 hours ago, RochesterRob said: Once again I would say nobody wants to pay for it or we would be past the preplanning stage now. Word is Pegula has been quietly working on his end by acquiring a few businesses that would be associated with such a project but no doubt waiting for the county and the state with neither stepping up and very doubtful that they will. NYS commuted $130 million to a damn renovation. Stop saying people won't pay for it, if this team ever hinted leaving people would be up in arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: You're joking right? The current Governor just absolutely squandered a billion of tax dollars on the "Buffalo Miracle". The only miracle is that he hasn't been arrested along with everyone else involved in planning that completely corrupt waste of money. What's that got to do with a stadium? The Buffalo Billion only happened because of everyone connected to it. Terry and Kim Pegula are among the important players for a new stadium that have no such connection. Especially with Pegula now having a construction and steel company that in theory could go a long ways towards building a stadium which is less grift for others to glom onto or as a favorite quote from Casino implies "nothing further down the trough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: You're joking right? The current Governor just absolutely squandered a billion of tax dollars on the "Buffalo Miracle". The only miracle is that he hasn't been arrested along with everyone else involved in planning that completely corrupt waste of money. ...my buddies at NYSDOT said Guido Cuomo does NOT have an e-mail address..........delete 'em but they never disappear.......I'm pretty sure if you tape a conversation for future use, you must say so or it is inadmissible in Court.....this guy is Albany's Teflon Don........ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, corta765 said: NYS commuted $130 million to a damn renovation. Stop saying people won't pay for it, if this team ever hinted leaving people would be up in arms. 130 million is a long ways from a Heinz Field type half billion dollar project never mind something more elaborate. 130 million is not enough to get NYC area politicians up in arms over or that 130 million would have been much harder to come by if not at all. Let's not pretend that legit expenditures in WNY are of great importance to the politicians in Albany. 4 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...my buddies at NYSDOT said Guido Cuomo does NOT have an e-mail address..........delete 'em but they never disappear.......I'm pretty sure if you tape a conversation for future use, you must say so or it is inadmissible in Court.....this guy is Albany's Teflon Don........ Paulie (Cicero) never had a phone in his house but one day wound up in the slammer. The more elaborate and far reaching the web of corruption the greater the chance of something damning getting caught in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: What's that got to do with a stadium? The Buffalo Billion only happened because of everyone connected to it. Terry and Kim Pegula are among the important players for a new stadium that have no such connection. Especially with Pegula now having a construction and steel company that in theory could go a long ways towards building a stadium which is less grift for others to glom onto or as a favorite quote from Casino implies "nothing further down the trough." I was answering the poster's question. Let Pegula roll his steel into buffalo and build his new stadium himself. He has the money to burn. NYS doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: 130 million is a long ways from a Heinz Field type half billion dollar project never mind something more elaborate. 130 million is not enough to get NYC area politicians up in arms over or that 130 million would have been much harder to come by if not at all. Let's not pretend that legit expenditures in WNY are of great importance to the politicians in Albany. Paulie (Cicero) never had a phone in his house but one day wound up in the slammer. The more elaborate and far reaching the web of corruption the greater the chance of something damning getting caught in it. ...not to mention that Pegula cannot stand him for his anti-fracking stance.....and Guido has a mean streak to get even......when Buffalo got hammered with 86" snowfall, the regional Thruway guy in charge said publicly, "we did the best with what we had to work with"......quietly out of a job two weeks later..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: 130 million is a long ways from a Heinz Field type half billion dollar project never mind something more elaborate. 130 million is not enough to get NYC area politicians up in arms over or that 130 million would have been much harder to come by if not at all. Let's not pretend that legit expenditures in WNY are of great importance to the politicians in Albany. I wrote an thread weeks ago that dove into the entire cost breakdown of a new stadium with research and numbers backing it up etc.. The Bills can get $200 million from NFL in loan type fund, they pledge $200 million, state 100 million, and city/county $100 million there's your new stadium. It will be a split job if its a new stadium that looks something like that. Breaking down the city/county piece lets just say the city of Buffalo offers $100 million which is paid back over 10 years. There are 250k residents currently its breaks down to about $40 more in taxes per year. Now your absolutely right to question if that is the best use of funds but that is the breakdown. OR the government does a Sin Tax on alcohol or hotel occupancy etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your Brown Eye Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 5 hours ago, reddogblitz said: I'm old school I admit it. I liked it when at football stadiums you went into the mens room and they just had a trench with water running in to do you know what in. No frills. Nothing is more masculine than standing around a hole with a bunch of your fellers peeing, yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I think it was Mark Dominic on NFL Radio saying a lockout in 2021 would not surprise him based on the status of the CBA. I don’t pretend to know the details, but I wonder if/how that possibility affects the Bills planning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Oh, go slide down the upper deck rail, you whipper-snapper. I was at that game. I was sitting in that red club section to the left of where he landed. quite the commotion when that happened. And, we beat Rex and the Jets!! Had a lot of fun mocking out and laughing at the Rex that day. Sammy, 3 catches for 157 yards and one TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 32 minutes ago, corta765 said: I wrote an thread weeks ago that dove into the entire cost breakdown of a new stadium with research and numbers backing it up etc.. The Bills can get $200 million from NFL in loan type fund, they pledge $200 million, state 100 million, and city/county $100 million there's your new stadium. It will be a split job if its a new stadium that looks something like that. Breaking down the city/county piece lets just say the city of Buffalo offers $100 million which is paid back over 10 years. There are 250k residents currently its breaks down to about $40 more in taxes per year. Now your absolutely right to question if that is the best use of funds but that is the breakdown. OR the government does a Sin Tax on alcohol or hotel occupancy etc.. I appreciate the breakdown and the enthusiasm but I think the real world is a bit more harsh on all this. The NFL loan will have to be repaid over time so that means the Pegula's themselves or through the team will have to shoulder 400 million which they have made no public gesture saying that they want to do that. In addition they are probably under pressure by other NFL owners to milk the government so as not to undermine any future efforts by the NFL to get government money. The state we can only guess about but I have my doubts about. Erie County and the City of Buffalo I have the greatest doubt about even though they would be in theory coming up with a small chunk of the money. There might be 250K residents in the city but quite a few are probably not breadwinners. Let's say factoring in children and retirees that there only 50K wage earners in Buffalo with a considerable number pulling in minimum wage so that tax per wage earner who pays the property tax means an additional 200 dollars per taxpayer per year. Similar story across Erie County when the contribution is figured by wage earner who pays the property tax bill. It might be more fair to say the city/ county together versus the city alone would contribute 100 million over 10 years but will the two pull together or will one push for the other to shoulder the larger part of the bill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I appreciate the breakdown and the enthusiasm but I think the real world is a bit more harsh on all this. The NFL loan will have to be repaid over time so that means the Pegula's themselves or through the team will have to shoulder 400 million which they have made no public gesture saying that they want to do that. In addition they are probably under pressure by other NFL owners to milk the government so as not to undermine any future efforts by the NFL to get government money. The state we can only guess about but I have my doubts about. Erie County and the City of Buffalo I have the greatest doubt about even though they would be in theory coming up with a small chunk of the money. There might be 250K residents in the city but quite a few are probably not breadwinners. Let's say factoring in children and retirees that there only 50K wage earners in Buffalo with a considerable number pulling in minimum wage so that tax per wage earner who pays the property tax means an additional 200 dollars per taxpayer per year. Similar story across Erie County when the contribution is figured by wage earner who pays the property tax bill. It might be more fair to say the city/ county together versus the city alone would contribute 100 million over 10 years but will the two pull together or will one push for the other to shoulder the larger part of the bill? Don't disagree with anything you have to say. The whole thing will be fascinating and the real world will be harsh on both sides. People need to be ready for fake threats of moving or government making too big of promises at points etc.. It won't be pretty but its going to have to go down. Also even if just comes down to tax breaks or increases on taxes on things like soda, beer, hotel etc.. like other cities have done that is money which could be used for more valuable projects. Edited July 25, 2018 by corta765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, corta765 said: Don't disagree with anything you have to say. The whole thing will be fascinating and the real world will be harsh on both sides. People need to be ready for fake threats of moving or government making too big of promises at points etc.. It won't be pretty but its going to have to go down. Also even if just comes down to tax breaks or increases on taxes on things like soda, beer, hotel etc.. like other cities have done that is money which could be used for more valuable projects. I don't think threats of moving will be made. But keep in mind most NFL owners wish the Bills played elsewhere. If we act like we're too poor, we're just proving their point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said: I don't think threats of moving will be made. But keep in mind most NFL owners wish the Bills played elsewhere. If we act like we're too poor, we're just proving their point. I don't know about that. Cities like Indy and Cleveland I think more absorbed the new stadium cost with some pain versus actually being able to afford it. Last time I was through Indiana I would say the road system had room for improvement. Not I 86 by Salamanca bad but but needing some work here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 6 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/bills/bills-stadium-plans-remain-unclear/71-577066129 BILLS STADIUM PLANS REMAIN UNCLEAR WGRZ's Adam Benigni spoke with Erie County Executive Marc Poloncarz to get some perspective on stadium plans for the future. But but but I was following the dots!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 3 hours ago, corta765 said: Don't disagree with anything you have to say. The whole thing will be fascinating and the real world will be harsh on both sides. People need to be ready for fake threats of moving or government making too big of promises at points etc.. It won't be pretty but its going to have to go down. Why exactly does it "have to go down"? Is there some NFL rule that says we have to? What will the NFL do if we dont? Kick us out? They didn't kick out KC, Chicago, or Green Bay. Our stadium is newer than those. just say no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv's Neighbor Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 7 hours ago, stony said: Hopefully the owner. The owner is a very successful businessman. He didn't get that way by bankrolling losing projects. Stadiums are not long term money makers, and Buffalo does not have the economic base to carry such a project. Not saying that's a bad thing because most of the US cities today are no better off. At the end of the cost/benefit analysis, a stadium is just not in the cards. Also nothing will ever happen till the state bonds are fully paid off. This is not a part of Buffalo Billion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said: The owner is a very successful businessman. He didn't get that way by bankrolling losing projects. Stadiums are not long term money makers, and Buffalo does not have the economic base to carry such a project On the contrary to the bolded, when a team gets a new stadium, the team's value goes up dramatically. The big payday comes when you sell the team. But if he just bought the team because he likes football and doesn't want to sell ever, it makes less sense. they don't make the city money, but owners don't care about that. Edited July 26, 2018 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 10 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said: It’s up there with red hair. This hurts so good. The last bastion of openly accepted and overtly cheered racism is gingerphobia. Luckily for me, a natural redhead, I'm comfortable feeling like a pariah. --------------------------------------------------------- > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Anybody have any clue how much the typical NFL owner made in profits last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan692 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Anybody have any clue how much the typical NFL owner made in profits last year? Average team around 300 million in revenue 40 million in profit? So not as much as you'd think basically https://www.quora.com/How-much-money-does-an-NFL-team-owner-make-off-his-her-team-per-year Although 40 million a year in profit adds up nicely over time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, reddogblitz said: Thanks. Seahawks tickets are outrageous too. Bills build a new stadium, the price of football goes up exponentially. No thanks IMHO. Almost... $100 bucks to park in Chicago... Neighbor goes, can only afford to go on his company's dime... When, if tix offered. Want fresh air to grill/tailgate? Price goes up. That's your new NFL model. "Downtown Model." Gr8 ain't it! Forget about taking the family, a working stiff will be put in the poorhouse. Watch it on TV for the Plebs. Edited July 26, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuco Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 12 hours ago, corta765 said: I wrote an thread weeks ago that dove into the entire cost breakdown of a new stadium with research and numbers backing it up etc.. The Bills can get $200 million from NFL in loan type fund, they pledge $200 million, state 100 million, and city/county $100 million there's your new stadium. It will be a split job if its a new stadium that looks something like that. Breaking down the city/county piece lets just say the city of Buffalo offers $100 million which is paid back over 10 years. There are 250k residents currently its breaks down to about $40 more in taxes per year. Now your absolutely right to question if that is the best use of funds but that is the breakdown. OR the government does a Sin Tax on alcohol or hotel occupancy etc.. The $200 million G4 loan is a great deal. It's loaned by the league and repaid by certain ticket revenue that would normally go into the revenue sharing pot. It's basically free money from the other owners. The problem is it's tied to the CBA. When the salary cap is set each year by a percentage of "all revenue," it's really all revenue minus these G4 loan amounts. It's agreed in the CBA that new stadiums lead to higher revenue and therefore the NFLPA allows the deduction. But that's the catch currently IMO. The loan only happens if the NFLPA approves the deduction from "all revenue." Since it's too late to be building a new stadium in 2019, the soonest we would be starting is 2020. But 2020 is the final year of the CBA, and whether it's a contentuous negotiation or not, there's no guarantee the G4 program or anything similar will still exist beyond 2020. And no guarantee with labor uncertainty the NFLPA would approve a loan anyway. I would say it's probable that a new or similar program will exist. But billion dollar projects don't like to deal in probable funding. Remember a couple years ago - when there was still time to use the G4 program, the owners were pushing Pegs a little to get a new stadium built. Let's face it, 4-5 new stadiums over the course of 10 years amounts to almost a billion dollars that owners are allowed to invest in stadiums rather than pay out in wages. And most teams have taken "their turn" over the last 20 years. Now we don't hear from the owners so much. I believe it's because now that it's too late for the Bills to use the G4 loan program, the owners are now also on board for them waiting to see what new or extended program will be available. So I think this, more than anything, is the reason for saying the stadium plans are unclear. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 The state is unlikely to pay part of a new stadium due to budget deficit and Buffalo Billion already. County and Buffalo need money for infrastructure. They use to raise stadium money with tax free bond not sure that is still ok with Trump admin. It would be unfair for the Pegulas to shoulder the full cost. Higher prices and PSL Rams could have the most expensive seat in America The $2.6-billion stadium Rams owner Stan Kroenke is building in Inglewood will be the world's costliest venue with a ticket pricing plan that would offer the most expensive seats in NFL history. According to a document obtained by The Times, the highest priced personal seat licenses for Rams games could range from $175,000 to $225,000 per seat. It would far eclipse the $150,000 PSLs offered by the Dallas Cowboys at AT&T Stadium. The license only entitles the owner to purchase a Rams season ticket after paying the one-time fee, which in a first for the NFL will be refundable — without interest — after 50 years. The buyer must then purchase a game ticket with the best club seats tentatively priced between $350 and $400 a game. The PSL can be sold to another party with permission from the Rams, a standard practice in the league. http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-rams-psl-20170831-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Put County Exec Poloncarz and County Comptroller Mychajliw each in front of a wind turbine, the electricity generated by those two barking at each other should kick in a healthy chunk of the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 19 hours ago, teef said: I hate it when people spell Mark with a c. It’s just not the right way to do it. don't say that to a French Canadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Western NY is sitting on one of the most iconic natural landmarks in the world, attracting millions of visitors each year. If the various governmental agencies can’t figure out how to monetize that assest into creating a world class sporting and convention venue then they ALL need to be shown the curb! (And no, it doesn’t mean the stadium needs to be located at The Falls!) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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