A Different Josh Allen Perspective For People Who Actually Care About Reality

[metzelaars_lives]

9 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

No reason to go on a crusade for your guy. Its out of our hands. We will all be forced to pallet whomever 

Ahh meme guy.  Glad to have you.  Also how is saying that a guy who most analysts have as the #2 or 3 QB, is my #2 or 3 QB, a “crusade?”  Sounds like anyone who doesn’t think Josh Allen will definitely be a bust is on a crusade.

Edited April 17, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[NewEra]

Nice write up, thank you.  I’d much rather have Darnold Rosen or mayfield but if he’s the guy, I’ll be rooting him on while praying that we surround him with the right pieces and offensive gameplan 

[stinky finger]

Thanks Biff!

[ddaryl]

5 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Ahh meme guy.  Glad to have you.

 

I do.love memes. 

 

 

[Blokestradamus]

5 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Yes dude!  Tanner Gentry was INSANE in 2016!  Jacob Hollister was playing in the Super Bowl for the Patriots.  Chase Roullier was the starting center for the Redskins by year’s end.  And Brian Hill was playing on MNF for the Bengals.  All gone.  That 2016 team is one of my favorite sports teams ever.

 

There is a nagging thought in my mind that perhaps Gentry played kingmaker for Allen just a little. Shades of Mike Evans and Johnny Manziel at A&M, perhaps not quite as pronounced.

 

I don't wish ill on the guy, he seems to be a genuinely good human being. I'm just not convinced that many of these "all the tools" guys have actually put it together. He's mid-stage Humpty Dumpty, all the pieces are there but you've got a hell of a job putting them back together again.

[Epstein's Mother]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Nice write up, thank you.  I’d much rather have Darnold Rosen or mayfield but if he’s the guy, I’ll be rooting him on while praying that we surround him with the right pieces and offensive gameplan 

 

I agree completely.  I do respect your argument on behalf on Allen.  Your thoughts are well organized and a pleasure to read.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Nice write-up. In 2017, Wyoming RBs only accounted for 11 receptions ALL YEAR (barely 1 per game).  If you watched Wyoming, they hardly threw any lay-up dink or dunk throws such as screens or RB flares.  A dink and dunk throw in that offense was a 10 yard out pattern.  Allen certainly had his share of ugly misses, but I am certain you can find those with every QB.  His misses are magnified and over analyzed because of his completion %.  As Chris Simms stated, with the offensive he had in 2017, it's amazing he even had 56%.   Craig Bohl even admitted they didn't have the proper QB coaching at Wyoming to help him with his mechanics.  Look how far he has come in three months under Jordan Palmer, and with the right coaching in the NFL, I think he will be very successful. 

[Kwai San]

Many thanks - as others have said good read - I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Biff form Tononwanda reference.....More Biff please - in a good way!

 

That said - I am with you - not my #1 guy but I really do believe that Beane and McD have a plan - hopefully they are able to execute that plan and they do indeed land the right guy.

 

Go Bills!

[ddaryl]

12 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Ahh meme guy.  Glad to have you.  Also how is saying that a guy who most analysts have as the #2 or 3 QB, is my #2 or 3 QB, a “crusade?”  Sounds like anyone who doesn’t think Josh Allen will definitely be a bust is on a crusade.

 

Seriously. 

Who cares what anyone thinks. We all have a favorite and in the end we will all be forced fed the pick. So rants trying to convince other fans why your choice is superior is by definition a crusade 

[Teddy KGB]

Iowa and Fresno State defenses > Josh Allen’s “upside” 

[Augie]

His highlight stuff is amazing! All-time amazing!

 

 His lowlights make you wonder how that can be the same guy. As I posted elsewhere, Greg Cosell said recently Allen demonstrates the difference between “arm strength” and “arm talent” (Yes, arm talent IS a real thing.) 

[Stanley Lombardi]

Your home-cooked report represents what's best of fan message boards -- a respectful and informed opinion on a matter of interest to the rest of us.

I don't follow each day's rising and setting tides concerning these QB's, but I follow enough to know that a.) everyone agrees Allen has the biggest arm, and b.) Allen had the best Wonderlic, by a significant margin, over any of those who regularly get mentioned as first-rounders.

Biggest arm and biggest brain amongst the blue-chip QB's, with no character problems and a real desire for success.  If that's what the Buffalo Bills manage to pick in the first round, I will be glad.

[Blokestradamus]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

(Yes, arm talent IS a real thing.) 

 

It might be a thing but it's a fairly nebulous term. If we could get a dictionary definition for it, I'd be delighted.

 

For example - I grade arm on intermediate velocity, deep ball velocity and application of touch. I put the motion forward that Blokes has set the parameters for all future discussion of "arm talent".

[BillsFan4]

Just now, Augie said:

His highlight stuff is amazing! All-time amazing!

 

 His lowlights make you wonder how that can be the same guy. As I posted elsewhere, Greg Cosell said recently Allen demonstrates the difference between “arm strength” and “arm talent” (Yes, arm talent IS a real thing.) 

 

 

Allen does have the best highlight reel of any QB in this draft IMO. He made some amazing throws/plays. 

 

and his low lights are a bit terrifying. lol 

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

It might be a thing but it's a fairly nebulous term. If we could get a dictionary definition for it, I'd be delighted.

 

For example - I grade arm on intermediate velocity, deep ball velocity and application of touch. I put the motion forward that Blokes has set the parameters for all future discussion of "arm talent".

 

Sure, it’s a vague term, but it includes (in my mind at least) some of the things you mentioned. Putting touch on the short pass, not one hopping the bubble screen, etc. Dropping the ball in on the long ball. Nebulous is fine, but it’s real stuff not easily qualified without a thesis. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

I'm not going to quote that long post, but I "liked" your OP, even though I am not an Allen fan.  That was the most informative and interesting perspective on him that I've heard so far.  Thanks for posting. 

[Bag of Milk]

In junior college Josh Allen finished 57th out of 58 qualifying QB's in  completion percentage.( 49%)

So there is that.

 

Not a fan.

[Big Turk]

None of this matters because all of the scouts/GMs/football people who live eat and breathe this stuff 24 hours a day/7 days a weeks/365 days a year STILL cannot figure out how to properly evaluate QB prospects, meaning that you, a random internet poster, certainly can't know how to properly evaluate them.

 

However that also means that regardles of what you say about any of the prospects you are likely to be no more wrong or right than anyone else if you look at the overall class.

 

It also means that if you took out a coin and flipped it in the air every year when asked about QB prospects and their chances for NFL success you would likely be just as right or even MORE right than thees football people.  

 

This leads me to my point that none of this stuff matters because it obviously doesn't translate very well to the NFL and you are basically shooting craps by taking a QB because if there WAS a way to figure this stuff out, it would have been fiured out with all of the analytics people and football personnel departments who could benefit from this.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by matter2003

[Bangarang]

49 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I sensed some smarminess in your post so I responded in a smarmy manner.  No disrespect.  

 

Smarminess is my middle name

[Mojo44]

 The OP put out a real good post and I thank him for that. It makes it even easier for me to not even care which of the, Hopefully, top for quarterbacks we get. At least we got a shot at a good one.

[racketmaster]

Great perspective from someone that follows the team closely. Never understood the hatred for Allen by so many. Yes, there are significant concerns but he does have some rare qualities. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

Great perspective from someone that follows the team closely. Never understood the hatred for Allen by so many. Yes, there are significant concerns but he does have some rare qualities. 

So do all the QBs tsken in the first round typically. Why dont all of them turn into great players then?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Not trying to convert anyone.  Just trying to tell you that if everyone in the football world- scouts, GM's analysts, etc.- likes Josh Allen but you, a fan listening to WGR and calling in on the whiner line, does not, it might be time for you to take a look in the mirror and try and understand why people who know way more about football than you, do like him.

 

Well OK, I'm with you on opposing the "over the top" stuff you called out in your OP.  But you do realize that everyone in the football world - scouts GMs analysts etc - does not "like" Josh Allen in the sense of considering him a top of the 1st draft pick or even necessarily a 1st round pick?

 

So this dichotomy between "everyone knowledgeable likes Josh Allen while you, "Biff from Tonawanda", are just a whiner who needs to check yourself" is a bit much in the other direction.

[Wily Dog]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

I don’t want us to draft Josh Allen. Fact

 

1 hour ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

I agree with this:  TRUE

Are you both from Tonawanda ?

Edited April 17, 2018 by Wily Dog

[Bangarang]

5 minutes ago, Wily Dog said:

 

Are you both from Tonawanda ?

 

Negative

[LeGOATski]

Josh Allen can't hit a target net from 10 yards away: FACT.

[Zerovoltz]

Good write up.  I don't agree with all of it, but it's useful information.  I remain skeptical due to completion pct.....and the bothersome part is....this kid was a physical specimen, from California.  He had to go to JUCO, where he had a low completion pct.  .....you are asking me to believe that that this manchild with a golden arm, in California, was NOT RECRUITED to a divsion 1 school, where you would think that a coaching staff would be interested in coaching him up.  That didn't happen.  He went to JUCO and didn't light the world on fire there.  He can throw it far.  His targets, had a low drop pct.  He was playing against lesser talented defenders.  There is alot to like....clearly he is being considered because of the good qualities.

 

I certainly can't say the OP is wrong, or that Allen can't be coached into being better than he has been....but I don't like the odds.  I will remain skeptical.

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well OK, I'm with you on opposing the "over the top" stuff you called out in your OP.  But you do realize that everyone in the football world - scouts GMs analysts etc - does not "like" Josh Allen in the sense of considering him a top of the 1st draft pick or even necessarily a 1st round pick?

 

So this dichotomy between "everyone knowledgeable likes Josh Allen while you, "Biff from Tonawanda", are just a whiner who needs to check yourself" is a bit much in the other direction.

Nobody in the football world can consistently judge QBs properly more than 50% of the time.

 

In fact they could just take a coin and flip it and be right as often or more often and it would allow them a lot more free time to play golf

Edited April 17, 2018 by matter2003

[Turk71]

Yep, he is just misunderstood. One of the greatest qbs to ever play, he was only playing at Wyoming because all the Biff's running college teams were too stupid to realize how great he was. His completion % has always been low because he throws the ball down the field a lot. That fact is not accurately reflected in his ypa because people are biffs. Biffs I tell ya!?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Blokestradamus said:

Someone else chimed in about this (I forgot who, feel free to jump in if you see this), that there's no rhyme or reason to his misfires. With Darnold/Lamar, I see misses mainly due to their base. With Allen, there's not one consistent element to his inconsistencies. Ergo, how do you fix what seems to be natural inaccuracy with no root cause?

 

 Well, I was one of those who made that observation - that when I see Jackson or Darnold being inaccurate, I can see why in their base.  If I pause the vid, I can tell if the throw will be accurate or not.   So I feel like there are things you can drill and try to improve, especially since much of the time it's good.  But with Allen, I can't see that.  There are times when he's inaccurate and I can't see a thing wrong.  I think Buffalo716 said the same.

 

To be fair, someone else here (I think it was Bandit) felt that more of his inaccuracies than generally credited could be put on the WR not being where he expected, and someone else posted a piece by a QB coach - Jordan Palmer? who has been working with Allen and had some stuff to say about subtle mechanic things that he says Allen is improving.  I can't see subtleties in real time throwing motion myself, unless I have film I can watch in slowmo.

 

So I don't know.

[BillsFan17]

21 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

Great perspective from someone that follows the team closely. Never understood the hatred for Allen by so many. Yes, there are significant concerns but he does have some rare qualities. 

There are players throughout the draft that possess certain traits that exceed the norm.

 

However, it's how many of those traits you have in relation to the deficiencies.

 

This is what separates players and honestly Allen's traits do not void out his massive deficiencies.

 

This is very similar to Cardale Jones. Cardale could throw the ball through a car wash and it come out the other side dry.

 

However, how accurately the kid was with the ball was an issue, yet, Allen is supposedly that much more of an arm talent?

 

Please this is a mix of Boller, Losman, and Cardale all mixed into one.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

55 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

There is a nagging thought in my mind that perhaps Gentry played kingmaker for Allen just a little. Shades of Mike Evans and Johnny Manziel at A&M, perhaps not quite as pronounced.

 

Perhaps a bit how I was initially very impressed with Mason Rudolph, then I noticed how much James Washington was helping him out and I started coveting Rudolph's WR?

[Jay_Fixit]

One that wasn’t touched on.

 

Josh Allen is innacurate. True.

 

And this is the most important one.

48 minutes ago, Augie said:

His highlight stuff is amazing! All-time amazing!

 

 His lowlights make you wonder how that can be the same guy. As I posted elsewhere, Greg Cosell said recently Allen demonstrates the difference between “arm strength” and “arm talent” (Yes, arm talent IS a real thing.) 

Arm talent is as real as Sasquatch.

 

It’s a term invented by Trent Dilfer to provide people a lazy way of describing all things Arm. And as all of us with eyes know, throwing is much more than just “arm.”

 

Arm Talent. Lol

[Domdab99]

1 hour ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Not trying to convert anyone.  Just trying to tell you that if everyone in the football world- scouts, GM's analysts, etc.- likes Josh Allen but you, a fan listening to WGR and calling in on the whiner line, does not, it might be time for you to take a look in the mirror and try and understand why people who know way more about football than you, do like him.

 

This is so far from the truth, it's laughable

[Fadingpain]

To the OP: Let's hope lots of NFL teams not located in Buffalo, NY agree with you!

 

Would love for someone like Josh Rosen to slip into our hands!

 

Sigmund Bloom was on today with Schopp & Bulldog; he said Cleveland may well take Allen #1 overall.

 

 

 

[racketmaster]

14 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

There are players throughout the draft that possess certain traits that exceed the norm.

 

However, it's how many of those traits you have in relation to the deficiencies.

 

This is what separates players and honestly Allen's traits do not void out his massive deficiencies.

 

This is very similar to Cardale Jones. Cardale could throw the ball through a car wash and it come out the other side dry.

 

However, how accurately the kid was with the ball was an issue, yet, Allen is supposedly that much more of an arm talent?

 

Please this is a mix of Boller, Losman, and Cardale all mixed into one.

This is your opinion and I completely disagree with comparing Allen to Jones. Sure they compare well physically but Cardale was known as a goofball and did not take his craft seriously. That makes a big difference. 

 

There are major physical differences between Losman/Boller and Allen. Allen has 2-3 inches on them and weighs 20lbs more. 

 

There are more differences which have been pointed out in previous threads. I feel like I have wasted too much time already because people are dug in and see what they want to see. 

 

I am no Allen homer and he may end up busting but it also would not entirely shock me if he ended up having a career like Stafford or a Favre (who have more in common with Allen as far as traits/stats than Losman and Boller). 

Edited April 17, 2018 by racketmaster

[Fadingpain]

10 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

One that wasn’t touched on.

 

Josh Allen is innacurate. True.

 

And this is the most important one.

Arm talent is as real as Sasquatch.

 

It’s a term invented by Trent Dilfer to provide people a lazy way of describing all things Arm. And as all of us with eyes know, throwing is much more than just “arm.”

 

Arm Talent. Lol

"Arm Talent" is one of these B.S. sports terms that has magically been invented in the last few years that is religiously parroted by every moron trying to sound intelligent.

 

I rank it right up there with "time and space" in hockey talk.

 

Another good one, though not reserved to the sporting realm, is "optics".

 

I want to kill every person I hear talking about "optics" as in "the appearance of something".

 

A couple other terms that are now strangely routinely used, usually in a wrong context, in sports talk:  "narrative" and "hyperbole".  

 

 

FACT CHECK:

 

No one living in Tonawanda is actually named "Biff":     TRUE.

 

 

[racketmaster]

1 hour ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

There is a nagging thought in my mind that perhaps Gentry played kingmaker for Allen just a little. Shades of Mike Evans and Johnny Manziel at A&M, perhaps not quite as pronounced.

 

I don't wish ill on the guy, he seems to be a genuinely good human being. I'm just not convinced that many of these "all the tools" guys have actually put it together. He's mid-stage Humpty Dumpty, all the pieces are there but you've got a hell of a job putting them back together again.

Gentry was an undrafted free agent that was waived like 3 or 4 times by the Bears last year. Evans was a top 10 pick. They are nothing alike as far as wr talents. 

[Chicken Boo]

One thing I will say is that Allen's completion percentage would easily be in the 60s had Wyoming attempted more high percentage throws (screens, bubble screens, etc.)

 

They were few and far between in this offense.  I can understand why a Todd Haley would love him, especially after a year or so on the bench.

[Buffalo716]

All those arguments are nothing new. I’ve heard them all

 

but idk what qualifies as unheralded for a JUCO prospect. Sure not many D1 offers but but I knew who he was and 247 which is highly respectable has him as the 5th ranked Dual threat JUCO QB from his class.. that’s a pretty high JUCO ranking 

 

.80 grade

 

 Baker Mayfields was .8383 iirc

 

https://247sports.com/Player/Josh-Allen-78109

Edited April 17, 2018 by Buffalo716