Green Bay CEO Calls Buffalo "A Playoff Team Without A Great Quarterback"

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

3 hours ago, SaviorPeterman said:

Can't really argue, although it's debatable this team will be back in the playoff mix next year given the impending roster overhaul.

 

But with a good offseason, looking forward to NP taking a major step forward and being the franchise QB that takes this team deep in the playoffs, whether it's next year or 2019 and beyond.

 

just end it with "in my opinion". 

 

do you have short term memory loss? I'm not going to dig for it but it was a thread, a thread you created after the lac game. remember that thread?

 

 

I do.

20 minutes ago, Foxx said:

hmm. i wonder if icebowl67 is the Packers GM....

 

 

all I know is after the game that was my initial thought. a QB away from advancing. drag

 

well, the monkey is off our back and I have a real strong sense we'll see a couple different QBs going in to next season and none with the name taylor

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, Steptide said:

Can they give us Aaron Rodgers? 

 

It’s a Win win. He even gets to prove assertion correct. I don’t see any drawback for either team. 

[BuffaloRush]

54 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Couldnt be more wrong. With the constant coaching turnover, Whaley basically put together MULTIPLE playoff caliber teams while in Buffalo.

 

Re-signed Cordy Glenn

Re-signed Eric Wood

Signed Incognito

Signed Groy

Drafted Miller (who I believe is being mis/under-used)

Drafted Dawkins

Signed Clay

Drafted O'Leary

Traded for McCoy

Re-signed Kyle (multiple times I believe)

Traded for Hughes

Drafted Washington

Signed Alexander

Signed Poyer

Signed Hyde

Drafted White

Drafted Milano
 

That's basically the foundation of this team.

 

Not to mention, his guys Searcy, Cockrell, Bradham, Watkins, Woods, Dareus, Seymour, Ragland, and Darby are ALL in the playoffs with other teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow - problem with people like @DrDawkinstein is that they want to give Whaley credit for everything that went right with the Bills - including credit for drafting mediocre players (Groy, O'Leary), players who can't get on the field (Miller), average players on other teams (Searcy, Cockrell, Seymour), and even players that were drafted by McDermott during his lame duck period (2016 draft). 

 

Look, Whaley made some nice moves - mostly related to pro personnel decisions.  I will give him that.  But he also had no long term vision and he hurt the team badly with suspect drafting.  And yes - he is responsible for EJ.   Bottom line Whaley is what his record was as GM - a mediocre to slightly below average GM who had no clue how to build a team a long term.  

 

So happy he is gone...Thank you Mr. Pegula for doing the right thing and getting rid of this bad GM.   

[NoSaint]

5 hours ago, Watkins90 said:

Murphy's pretty ignorant if he thinks Whaley put this year's team together, with how few of the players he drafted or signed are left. 

 

 

Sooooo other than Gaines, Benjamin and Matthews.... how many guys are definitively not Whaley?

[Ice bowl 67]

I agree with him lol.

[Pete]

3 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

QB's worth trading up for that weren't mediocre that he could've tried to trade up for or just fall into his lap when he was GM?

Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garoppolo, AJ McCarron (maybe), Jameis Winston (maybe), Marcus Mariota (maybe), Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Dak Prescott, Patrick Mahomes (maybe), Deshaun Watson... 

Again, some of those we passed on (several times), some we would've had to trade up for, but those are all guys that could've been targeted had he wanted to that he didn't go after.

 

 

Winston went #1, Mariotta 2 so those weren't really options.  For Goff- The Titans received two first-round picks, two second-rounders, and two third-rounders in exchange for sending their No. 1 overall pick plus a fourth- and sixth-round pick to the Rams last year. For Trubisky- to move up one spot!  Look at the cost No. 2: San Francisco → Chicago (D). San Francisco traded their first-round selection (2nd) to Chicago in exchange for Chicago's first-, third-, and fourth-round selections (3rd, 67th, and 111th) as well as their third-round selection in 2018.[source 1].

Bridgewater can't stay healthy and can be signed at a fraction of his rookie contract this offseason.

Prescott we might of blown it- we selected Cardale instead.  hindsight is 20/20.  And besides Prescott is not Aaron Rogers.

Wentz cost philly plenty.  To move from No. 8 to No. 2 overall last April, the Eagles offered up a first-, third- and a fourth-round pick in 2016, a first-round pick in '17 and a second-round pick in '18 in exchange for the rights to Wentz and a '17 fourth-rounder.  Too rich for me.  I would rather have Clevelands draft picks

[Wayne Arnold]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

Sooooo other than Gaines, Benjamin and Matthews.... how many guys are definitively not Whaley?

 

On defense alone: Kyle Williams, Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Tre White, Cedric Thornton, Milano, Leonard Johnson, Ryan Davis.

 

Take away those eight players, and what kind of defense do we have?

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

On defense alone: Kyle Williams, Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Tre White, Cedric Thornton, Milano, Leonard Johnson, Ryan Davis.

 

Take away those eight players, and what kind of defense do we have?

So we aren’t counting guys he signed or draft picks made while he was here as his? And to top it off we are pretending none of those spots would’ve otherwise been filled by anyone? 

[Badasss]

The Eagles' President/CEO is also from WNY - Rochester. I don't know if he was ever a Bills fan though. He played soccer in high school. 

[BigDingus]

35 minutes ago, Pete said:

Winston went #1, Mariotta 2 so those weren't really options.  For Goff- The Titans received two first-round picks, two second-rounders, and two third-rounders in exchange for sending their No. 1 overall pick plus a fourth- and sixth-round pick to the Rams last year. For Trubisky- to move up one spot!  Look at the cost No. 2: San Francisco → Chicago (D). San Francisco traded their first-round selection (2nd) to Chicago in exchange for Chicago's first-, third-, and fourth-round selections (3rd, 67th, and 111th) as well as their third-round selection in 2018.[source 1].

Bridgewater can't stay healthy and can be signed at a fraction of his rookie contract this offseason.

Prescott we might of blown it- we selected Cardale instead.  hindsight is 20/20.  And besides Prescott is not Aaron Rogers.

Wentz cost philly plenty.  To move from No. 8 to No. 2 overall last April, the Eagles offered up a first-, third- and a fourth-round pick in 2016, a first-round pick in '17 and a second-round pick in '18 in exchange for the rights to Wentz and a '17 fourth-rounder.  Too rich for me.  I would rather have Clevelands draft picks

 

I specified people we could've targetted had we wanted to trade away a bunch of picks, that's it.

I also mentioned QB's we passed on that weren't "mediocre/overhyped" and we could've drafted, nothing more.

I mentioned this in both posts.

Edited January 12, 2018 by BigDingus

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

I specified people we could've targetted had we wanted to trade away a bunch of picks, that's it.

I also mentioned QB's we passed on that weren't overhyped and we could've drafted, nothing more.

I mentioned this in both posts.

We never had enough firepower to pull off any of those trades

Edited January 12, 2018 by Pete

[BigDingus]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

We never had enough firepower to pull of any of those trades

 

That's highly debatable. We could've traded players (we had them), and picks from the current/future drafts.

Besides the year after Watkins, we've had 1st round picks...we've had 2nd round picks. And again, some of those QB's WE PASSED ON. We had the opportunity to draft them and chose not to, several times. 

If you want to staunchly defend that position, I'll provide what picks we had, who we chose, and what assets we had both pick-wise and personnel wise to argue the opposite.

Edited January 12, 2018 by BigDingus

[Mikie2times]

3 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

I have lived in Washington DC, Seattle, Chicago and Houston over a period of 35 years.  I have always found BILLS groups, and we were ALL from the area.

 

Anybody I have met from WNY is a Bills fan. I love meeting them. Great guy at work, guys as good of a person as I have ever met. We all have our experiences. I know plenty of people like me exist.  Detroit market, the Bills were always on. We went to our first Super Bowl when I was 8. Somewhere in the 8-16 range you typically discover a team you like and that was an exciting team. I identified with the fan base over time. Our fan base stands for my value system. Buffalo has always felt like the perfect throwback. I can't not like the Bills, it didn't really feel like I got a choice in it either which I'm sure most you feel.   

[Chicken Boo]

5 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I'm not talking smack about Whaley, you're simply wrong on arguing this point. Yes, the trade fell into our laps. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative. 

No, actually it doesn't fit your narrative,  being that Whaley could have rejected the trade all together or given them Alonzo and Woods.

 

It takes 2 to tango.  The trade was made.  Give Whaley credit.

[Bring it]

Whaley’s biggest mistake imo is giving Dareus a franchise player contract. I used to be a Whaley supporter but not anymore. Talent is important. Attitude is more important! M

[Pete]

Just now, BigDingus said:

 

That's highly debatable. We could've traded players (we had them), and picks from the current/future drafts.

Besides the year after Watkins, we've had 1st round picks...we've had 2nd round picks. And again, some of those QB's WE PASSED ON. We had the opportunity to draft them and chose not to, several times.

look at what other teams had to give up.  We never had that.  And what Bills players the past 10 years have been trade worthy?  Dareus went for a 5th.  Sammy got us a 2nd and Gaines- and will be franchised this year. Those were probably our best player not named McCoy.  Oh yeah- he only cost Kiko.  I think you are seriously overestimating our talent and trade value.  

[Helpmenow]

7 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Murphy is from Western New York .

From Clarence NY

[McBean]

7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I thought this was fascinating, not because it's about Tyrod (we have a zillion threads about that) but because it's rare for the GM/CEO of one team to be commenting about the personnel of another team.  It also suggests that Tyrod might have a hard time finding a starting gig if the Bills cut ties.

 

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/09/fourth-candidate-confirmed-packers-gm-search/1018451001/

 

“Doug Whaley really did a job with the interview,” Murphy said. “I think it was not confirmed, but he was the fourth interview. I knew him a little bit, so I enjoyed having a chance to spend some time with him. I'm a Bills fan, so I follow the Bills a little more closely than some of the other teams.  “But he put together that roster, and it's a playoff team without a great quarterback. It made the playoffs. They have a good roster."

 

So we’re a playoff team without a great quarterback you say?

 

In other news, we landed on the moon.

[Doc Brown]

If EJ Manuel panned out, Whaley would pry still be GM.  As is life in the NFL.  Beane's future will also depend on whether he can land a franchise QB.

[Cruiserplayer]

I still don’t understand the Whaley hate. His two biggest downfalls weren’t Manuel and Watkins. They were the inability to coexist with St Doug and the unfortunate situation that tied him to The Ryans.

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 “But he put together that roster, and it's a playoff team without a great quarterback. It made the playoffs. They have a good roster."

 

He should look at his own team this year LOL

1 minute ago, Cruiserplayer said:

I still don’t understand the Whaley hate. His two biggest downfalls weren’t Manuel and Watkins. They were the inability to coexist with St Doug and the unfortunate situation that tied him to The Ryans.

 

I thought Doug did a fine job. He definitely left the Bill in better shape than when he found them.

[Mango]

7 hours ago, Watkins90 said:

It wasn't so much Dareus's huge contract, but the fact that there was no out or money we could get back when he was being a !@#$ up, that was the problem. 

 

 

I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). 

[reddogblitz]

14 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

 

I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). 

 

I miss Mr. Big Stuff.

[Lfod]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

 

I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). 

 I don't think they make that trade if they can find common ground with Dareus. I don't think they traded him away without making an attempt to work with him. 

 

He could go on to be spectacular but that doesn't assure he would of done it here for these coaches or this team. It's not like Dareus didn't do anything to effect his situation.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Lfod

[BillsFan4]

8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It takes a team and full staff of scouts an entire year to put together a draft board, and scouting reports, and player profiles, and do interviews, etc., etc. McDermott did NOT have time to do his own recon while working as DC for the Panthers. That is not what coaches do, especially assistants.

 

While I agree that McD had a say in which specific players were drafted, just like all previous Bills HCs, he was definitely working off of Whaley's intelligence, information, and advisement. Each had equal hand in making that draft happen. It's also exactly why no matter who fell to us, McD was not going to draft a QB. He wanted his own GMs recon for a position that important. But White, Dawkins, and Milano were all standard Whaley guys.

 

Yes, he gave Dareus a huge contract, that at the time we ALL wanted to happen. Had he let our #3 overall choice, the highest draft pick the Bills had in over a decade, walk for nothing after his rookie contract was up, that would have been even worse. Just like the HCs get some credit/blame for the draft, some if not most of the details of that contract are on Overdorff who personally oversaw contracts and the cap. I won't ever say Whaley is completely innocent there, but he had to get Dareus signed.

 

Injuries are always hindsight, wrt Glenn, he still got the contract for our LT done, unlike most of the GMs before him. And I blame Castillo, who I say should be fired, for the way he has handled Groy and Miller while starting Ducasse.

 

The talent is there.

 

 

 

I don't know man. 2017 went completely away from what Whaley normally did in the draft. 

 

He almost always had the players he drafted (esp. high) in for pre draft visits. None of the players we drafted this year were in for a visit (except Peterman IIRC).

In fact, The Bills have had their 1st round draft pick in for a visit from the time he first got here - every year from 2010 to 2016. The only year he didn't... 2017. 

 

Drafts as assistant GM (pre draft visits)- 

 

-CJ Spiller

-Marcell Dareus

-Stephon Gilmore

-Tank Carder

 

-EJ Manuel 

-Jonathan Meeks (this 2013 draft was probably him running the show but I'll list it under asst. GM because we don't know if he ran the show or not). 

 

 

Drafts as GM (pre draft visits)-

 

-Sammy Watkins

-Cyrus Kouandjio

-Preston Brown

-Ross Cockrell 

(thats the top 4 picks from the 2014 draft, all brought in for a pre draft visit)

 

-John Miller

-Karlos Williams

-Cardale Jones

-Kolby Listenbee

-Shaw Lawson

-Reggie Ragland

-Adolphus Washington

 

 

(I'm not sure if this is a complete list. It's just what I found with a quick search) 

 

You know now who did have many of our draft picks in for a visit? 

 

Carolina Panthers.

 

-Tre White

-Zay Jones

-Dion Dawkins

-Tanner Vallejo

 

 

 

Also, he never drafted players from small schools (like Zay Jones or even Dawkins (Temple)), especially in the first few rounds. Whaley stuck to certain colleges and especially certain conferences.

 

 

In his time as GM from 2014 to 2015, 9 of his 13 draft picks came form the ACC. Shaq Lawson (in 2016) made that 10.

 

If you go back to 2013, only 3 of his 28 draft picks came form outside the power 5 conference - Duke Williams (4th), Randell Johnson (7th round), Dezmin Lewis (7th).

 

Never a top 3 round pick from outside the power 5, again, until 2017 (Jones, Dawkins). 

 

 

This was comp,etely dfferent than any draft from the time Shakey was hired by Buffalo. I am sure McDermott used some information form him but when looking at everything it's hard to believe that Whaley played much of a role in this draft. 

 Nobody knows for sure, but that's the impression I get when I add up all the pieces. 

 

 

[Bing Bong]

he's an idiot

[Bing Bong]

36 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Never a top 3 round pick from outside the power 5, again, until 2017 (Jones, Dawkins). 

not to quote your huge post. but some points.

1. no GM looks good with coaching turnover. I remember a fellow names Brett Favre getting traded after a new regime.

But he's a bust because he didn't win it with ATL lol

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

13 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I thought this was fascinating, not because it's about Tyrod (we have a zillion threads about that) but because it's rare for the GM/CEO of one team to be commenting about the personnel of another team.  It also suggests that Tyrod might have a hard time finding a starting gig if the Bills cut ties.

 

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/09/fourth-candidate-confirmed-packers-gm-search/1018451001/

 

“Doug Whaley really did a job with the interview,” Murphy said. “I think it was not confirmed, but he was the fourth interview. I knew him a little bit, so I enjoyed having a chance to spend some time with him. I'm a Bills fan, so I follow the Bills a little more closely than some of the other teams.  “But he put together that roster, and it's a playoff team without a great quarterback. It made the playoffs. They have a good roster."

 

That is nice to hear but but we OVER ACHIEVED , We Are Sorely Lacking In Most Every Position.

 

 

 

And Whaley did not build this roster, McD ran that draft and him and Beane purged most of his "Talent"

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Buffalo Barbarian

[BobbyC81]

12 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

I think 99.99% of BILLS fans are.  It's mostly been our cross to bear.

 

I’ve met a few people here in the Sacramento area that are Bills fans who have no ties to Western New York. It was the Kelly led offense that attracted them.

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Heitz said:

 

Imagine if Beane said something like "I'm a big Vikings fan!" - TBD would melt down at the gall of a Bills GM liking anything other than the Bills! 

 

 

The word "big" wasn't used.

 

And if Beane said, "I'm a Carolina fan," IMHO it would be a very minor story.

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

He should look at his own team this year LOL

 

I thought Doug did a fine job. He definitely left the Bill in better shape than when he found them.

 

 

I strongly agree with you that Doug Marrone left this team better off than it was when he got here. Marrone opted out, which hurt a lot of people and left a bad taste, but the team was stronger. He led them to the same record, 9-7, that has gotten such overwhelmingly good reviews this year.

 

But then they switched systems yet again.

 

The Sammy tradeup - not the pick but the tradeup - and the inability to bring in a QB killed Whaley. Not fighting against the Ryan selection too. And also his ending up having problems getting along with both of the coaches hired on his watch.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1

[nucci]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

That is nice to hear but but we OVER ACHIEVED , We Are Sorely Lacking In Most Every Position.

 

 

 

And Whaley did not build this roster, McD ran that draft and him and Beane purged most of his "Talent"

 

 

What's wrong with overachieving. Isn't that a good thing....don't you want your kids to overachieve?

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Mango said:

 

 

I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). 

 

 

Agreed. The Dareus and Lynch trades were very alike. 

 

We didn't get enough back. And neither guy was playing anywhere near the top of his game for quite a while before the trade was made, which greatly lowered their values. Both had major problems off the field too.

 

Both were trades that could have been avoided by the guys in question just playing well. Both played themselves off the roster, both forced the team to le them go for poor value. Both were let go partly because of contract situations.

 

Quick note: Here are Marshawn's yearly YPA figures. Guess which came in the last two years in Buffalo:

 

2007: 4.0

2008: 4.1

2009: 3.8

2010: 3.6

2011: 4.2

2012: 5.0

2013: 4.2

2014: 4.7

2015: 3.8

2017: 4.3

 

Hard to figure at what point a team might have traded the guy for very little value, hunh?

 

Interestingly, in 2009 and 2010, Freddy Jackson 4.5 and 4.2 YPC behind the Bills OL. Hmmmmm.

[Mr. WEO]

That CEO is pretty sharp. 

 

Has anyone NOT described the Bills as a playoff team without a great QB?

 

He also noted Green Bay is a town with very low average winter temperatures.

[Thurman#1]

 

14 hours ago, klos63 said:

He could have correctly stated the Whaley built a championship level defense, a top 10 offense and a top 5 special teams. Just not all in the same season, with 2 coaches that he didn't hire.

 

14 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Complete bulls*&t.

 

13 hours ago, klos63 said:

#4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage, top 10 in sacks..... are you able to qualify your brilliant comment?

 

#4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage and top ten in sacks ... so you're saying that Whaley built the 2014 defense that racked up those stats, right? 

 

He's right, that is indeed bull ****.

 

That defense was overwhelmingly built during Nix's tenure as GM. Whaley became GM on May 16th, 2013. So the starters on that excellent defense brought in during Whaley's tenure were:   Preston Brown

 

Brought in under Nix: Brandon Spikes, Jerry Hughes, Dareus, Bradham, Stephon Gilmore, nickel CB Robey-Coleman, Aaron Williams, Da'Norris Searcy

 

Brought in before Nix: Kyle Williams, Leodis McKelvin

 

Whaley may well have had some influence on some of Nix's picks, but it's impossible to know if or how much or even if Nix was overruling him sometimes. Saying Whaley "built" that defense is indeed ridiculous.

 

 

 

He also didn't even have, much less "build" a top ten offense. Offenses under Whaley's tenure were ranked:

 

2013: 19th

2014: 26th

2015: 13th

2016: 16th

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1

[BuffaloHokie13]

13 hours ago, 1ZAYDAY1 said:

And why do the Bills have a league high in dead cap money? $18M, that sucks! That a franchise LT and WR money.

It'll be over $27M once we get rid of Tyrod. Fortunately, 2019 and beyond looks much better from a cap perspective.

 

We could afford to pay Kirk Cousins in dead cap money this year

Edited January 12, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13

[klos63]

13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

#4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage and top ten in sacks ... so you're saying that Whaley built the 2014 defense that racked up those stats, right? 

 

He's right, that is indeed bull ****.

 

That defense was overwhelmingly built during Nix's tenure as GM. Whaley became GM on May 16th, 2013. So the starters on that excellent defense brought in during Whaley's tenure were:   Preston Brown

 

Brought in under Nix: Brandon Spikes, Jerry Hughes, Dareus, Bradham, Stephon Gilmore, nickel CB Robey-Coleman, Aaron Williams, Da'Norris Searcy

 

Brought in before Nix: Kyle Williams, Leodis McKelvin

 

Whaley may well have had some influence on some of Nix's picks, but it's impossible to know if or how much or even if Nix was overruling him sometimes. Saying Whaley "built" that defense is indeed ridiculous.

 

 

 

He also didn't even have, much less "build" a top ten offense. Offenses under Whaley's tenure were ranked:

 

2013: 19th

2014: 26th

2015: 13th

2016: 16th

 

 

 

So how come those aren't Nix's offenses too?

[Thurman#1]

16 minutes ago, klos63 said:

So how come those aren't Nix's offenses too?

 

 

OK, they're Nix's offenses too. Happy? 

 

Everything, offense, defense, etc. got more Whaleyized as the years passed under his stewardship. But things didn't get better.

 

The reason I included all four is that you said he built a top ten offense and I simply wanted to show we didn't even have one at that time, much less one that Whaley built.

 

Whaley wasn't awful, but his drafts weren't good, the Sammy tradeup was awful and he had major communication issues with both coaches. From what I saw, his pro personnel record was very fine. But he didn't build anything. This wasn't a team on the rise.

 

 

 

I like your posts, Klos. I strongly disagree here but I enjoy reading your stuff. See you.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1

[May Day 10]

Whaley isn't a good GM.  He ran a leaky ship strife with dysfunction.  Some of the contracts they handed out are puzzling.  Obsession with trading up in the draft hurt.  Absolutely no urgency to resolve the awful QB situation.  Publicly, as 'CEO' of the football department he came across as a boob.  

 

To me, the whole Levy/Brandon/Nix/Whaley lineage was basically one administration anyways.  Just a series of passing the baton to buy another few years so the fans wont revolt.

[Helpmenow]

6 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

not to quote your huge post. but some points.

1. no GM looks good with coaching turnover. I remember a fellow names Brett Favre getting traded after a new regime.

But he's a bust because he didn't win it with ATL lol

 

Granville was an idiot

[Wayne Arnold]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

So we aren’t counting guys he signed or draft picks made while he was here as his? And to top it off we are pretending none of those spots would’ve otherwise been filled by anyone? 

 

It's very well-documented that McDermott ran things before Beane arrived. Let's stop playing games.