The Penalty (Bad Call in Chiefs Game)

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Crayola64 said:

I still think objective elements of penalties should be reviewable

 

I think every penalty that is called— objective or not— should be reviewable. 

[Numark3]

2 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

 

I think every penalty that is called— objective or not— should be reviewable. 

 

baby steps!

[Comebackkid]

3 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

 

I think every penalty that is called— objective or not— should be reviewable. 

there should probably be a rule where you have say...have two opportunities to refute a call on the field...

Edited November 26, 2017 by Comebackkid

[KW95 - JA17]

59 minutes ago, Nanker said:

Yep. Bookies gonna' be pizzed!

The spread was 9.5.  Nothing to do with Bookies.  Bills cover either way.

[Livinginthepast]

29 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I may put that on my tombstone.  I won't let people forget.  That was the most pissed I've ever been at the refs.  At least the Music City Miracle was a close call.

Being a Bills Masochist, I just watched it again on YT. Wow that was epically bad officiating!! Cost the Bills a home playoff game vs the Fins.

 

[Rocbillsfan1]

Jerry Hughes was blatantly being held on every play on that possession too. It was hard to watch 

[HurlyBurly51]

Apology letter in the mail this week.  That is all. smh

[Manther]

3 hours ago, Idandria said:

You cant hit a running back who's running forward trying to make a play? The rules are totally destroying the game.

 

But on this play, he didn't even really touch him. Horrid call, absolutely horrible. 

Disgraceful and disgraceful!

 

The worst is for refs discussed this and then called the penalty!

 

Trying not to be over dramatic, but, absolutely disgusting call!!

[Dadonkadonk]

Refs are like cops.  They defend their own even when bad calls are made.  The guy made a mistake.  You know at least one or more other ref saw that play and saw no penalty.  They should have picked up the flag.  

1 hour ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

Jerry Hughes was blatantly being held on every play on that possession too. It was hard to watch 

No he wasn't

[Kirby Jackson]

Hyperbole aside, that ranks with the worst calls that I’ve ever seen. The penalty in London was up there too. They are lucky that the Bills won because that play would have been everywhere otherwise.

[Dr.Sack]

Music City Miracle greatest non-call ever (not one zebra didn’t think that wasn’t a forward pass? If so the video evidence would have been insufficient to overturn the call on the field that it was a forward pass. You see it works both ways!) 

 

Today’s was a terrible call that should have been a non-call. Zebra got whistle happy. 

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

There is no accountability for anything in the NFL.  None.

 

 

Whats the standard for accuracy of calls? 100%? Should he be held more accountable down the stretch in a close game than a blowout or in the first half?

 

Do we think this ref was trying to fix the game or that from his angle in real time it looked worse?

 

this was objectively a very wrong call, but what’s the expectation, how do you quantify things like this, and how much of it is the fault of getting 19 replays? Live with one look it seemed shaky. With the reverse angle slo-mo it looked horrific. 

[BillsSbSoon]

Theres been so many bad calls against us its pathetic. The seattle game last yr was a conspiracy theorists wet dream about fixing in the league

[rant_and_go_returns]

14 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Music City Miracle greatest non-call ever (not one zebra didn’t think that wasn’t a forward pass? If so the video evidence would have been insufficient to overturn the call on the field that it was a forward pass. You see it works both ways!) 

 

Today’s was a terrible call that should have been a non-call. Zebra got whistle happy. 

 

They did review it!!!!

Best way to fix this is to have Pegula walk the sidelines with a black jack. When angry he is a very scary man.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

I really have no idea what the ref thought he saw there. Gaines was close to hitting the guy in the head, but he clearly didn't. The Chiefs head didn't snap either. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if Gaines HAD hit the guy in the head it still wouldn't be a penalty. Once a receiver catches the ball and starts running up field they are no longer considered to be defenseless. 

 

I thought the holding on Dawkins on our last good drive in the 4th was a pretty bad call as well. After not calling a hold the entire game you decide to call that ticky tack penalty? Cost the Bills at least a FG.... 

 

Oh well 

 

We won and this will be forgotten pretty quickly. 

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, Jamie Muellers Ghost said:

One of the worst calls I have ever seen.

Agree it was a bonehead call at a crucial time in the game.  But overall the refs were fine.  They let the players play the game without too many flags.

[SaviorPeterman]

I'm not big on the officiating conspiracy theories, but calls like the one in question is why folks truly believe the refs work with Vegas to ensure certain outcomes.

 

If the Chiefs had come back to score a TD and win by one point the favored Chiefs win and Bills cover the spread (which was pretty ridiculous to begin with).

 

I guess the Bills winning outright was not the desired outcome for Vegas, too bad.

[Steve O]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Zebras gonna zebra 

 

Refs need to be held accountable for their calls on the field.

 

missing games and checks or a demotion for errant game changing calls

I was just scanning through to see if anyone else felt like this. This was at best just a terrible call. More likely a home call, or a ref trying to bail out one of his fellow refs (away from the camera in the OP's video there was about to be an argument between McD and a ref who called out of bounds, McD saying he was down by contact.) Either way players can be fined for blatant targeting hits, refs should be suspended for blatant missed calls of this magnitude. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Steve O

[BillsfaninChicago]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Pass interference in the end zone on a Hal Mary in '98 in Foxborough.

Ugh the “just give it to em” game. Reffed by Phil Luckett who also reffed the Music City Illegal Forward Lateral game.

[Coach Tuesday]

34 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Whats the standard for accuracy of calls? 100%? Should he be held more accountable down the stretch in a close game than a blowout or in the first half?

 

Do we think this ref was trying to fix the game or that from his angle in real time it looked worse?

 

this was objectively a very wrong call, but what’s the expectation, how do you quantify things like this, and how much of it is the fault of getting 19 replays? Live with one look it seemed shaky. With the reverse angle slo-mo it looked horrific. 

 

What are the consequences for getting calls like that so horribly wrong?  That’s the better question.

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Being a Bills Masochist, I just watched it again on YT. Wow that was epically bad officiating!! Cost the Bills a home playoff game vs the Fins.

 

Wow.  Good find.  I never bought into the idea that a ref is paid off to favor a team, but that game may be the lone exception.  That catch on 4th down where he clearly was out of bounds would at least be reviewed in today's game.

[TigerJ]

3 hours ago, Crayola64 said:

I still think objective elements of penalties should be reviewable

Not that I disagree about the penalty on Gaines being a terrible call, but I would like to see how this might look before I can buy into it.  It seems like there could be lots of problems, not the least of which could be that certain games could drag on a long time.  Do you handle it like the way other reviews are done, with the coaches having the ability to throw their red flags?  With the greater number of reviewable calls, do you add to the number of challenges that coaches can make, or do you keep them the same?

[CLTbills]

If we'd lost that game, I don't like how it would've ended for the iPad I was watching the game on...

 

worst call I've seen in a LONG time in an NFL game. Close second goes to either the MNF debacle in Seattle last year or the PI call in London.

[oldmanfan]

Terrible call.  Just terrible.  The team should file a formal complaint about it and make sure it gets reviewed. As for ramifications the ref making the call hopefully works no playoff games.

[NoSaint]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

What are the consequences for getting calls like that so horribly wrong?  That’s the better question.

 

 

Id imagine that if a guy gets wildly out of line he’s not getting playoffs, and eventually working his way out of the league. 

 

Again, 100% accuracy isn’t going to happen. So, is it a bad call? Yes. Was it egregious given his angle? I honestly didn’t catch his view. I find that often goes a long way in explaining our perception differing from the actual call.

 

And I have no idea his history.

 

What do you think is reasonable punishment for today’s and why?

[Rocbillsfan1]

47 minutes ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Refs are like cops.  They defend their own even when bad calls are made.  The guy made a mistake.  You know at least one or more other ref saw that play and saw no penalty.  They should have picked up the flag.  

No he wasn't

you serious clark? It was pretty obvious.

[CLTbills]

6 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Wow.  Good find.  I never bought into the idea that a ref is paid off to favor a team, but that game may be the lone exception.  That catch on 4th down where he clearly was out of bounds would at least be reviewed in today's game.

Dude wasn't even CLOSE to being inbounds. And I could tell that with really crappy 1998-quality video. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Id imagine that if a guy gets wildly out of line he’s not getting playoffs, and eventually working his way out of the league. 

 

Again, 100% accuracy isn’t going to happen. So, is it a bad call? Yes. Was it egregious given his angle? I honestly didn’t catch his view. I find that often goes a long way in explaining our perception differing from the actual call.

 

And I have no idea his history.

 

What do you think is reasonable punishment for today’s and why?

 

I don’t know what the reasonable punishment should be but the League’s approach to officiating reminds me of the police unions after an egregious brutality event.  There is a “circle the wagons” mentality that is incredibly old-fashioned and enrages the fans.

 

A good start would be admitting it when the refs blatantly screw up.

51 minutes ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Refs are like cops.  They defend their own even when bad calls are made.  The guy made a mistake.  You know at least one or more other ref saw that play and saw no penalty.  They should have picked up the flag.  

No he wasn't

 

Exactly!  They remind me of police unions.

[Paul Costa]

That Jacksonville call in London was brutal too. If a on the field ref can’t help overturn horrible call like that they should be able to bang it upstairs to clear it up. That would have been a bad way to lose. Thanks Dre!!

Sorry Tre

[NoSaint]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I don’t know what the reasonable punishment should be but the League’s approach to officiating reminds me of the police unions after an egregious brutality event.  There is a “circle the wagons” mentality that is incredibly old-fashioned and enrages the fans.

 

A good start would be admitting it when the refs blatantly screw up.

 

Exactly!  They remind me of police unions.

 

 

Thats likewise an nfl stance. They worry that allowing and/or encouraging a true feedback loop would just let the perception of problems grow. If they shut it down then outside the most egregious most fans only ever see so many and remember only a few outside of those against their teams.

 

you start putting out press releases and punishments publicly and fans have red meat.

[hemma]

Seemed like they really wanted to nullify Zay Jones touchdown.

 

I think they watched it about 10 times, searching for any reason to call it incomplete.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Thats likewise an nfl stance. They worry that allowing and/or encouraging a true feedback loop would just let the perception of problems grow. If they shut it down then outside the most egregious most fans only ever see so many and remember only a few outside of those against their teams.

 

you start putting out press releases and punishments publicly and fans have red meat.

 

I disagree as would most modern corporate communications directors.  Engage with your audience and own up to mistakes.  Otherwise you insult and alienate your customers.

[Paulus]

38 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I really have no idea what the ref thought he saw there. Gaines was close to hitting the guy in the head, but he clearly didn't. The Chiefs head didn't snap either. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if Gaines HAD hit the guy in the head it still wouldn't be a penalty. Once a receiver catches the ball and starts running up field they are no longer considered to be defenseless. 

 

I thought the holding on Dawkins on our last good drive in the 4th was a pretty bad call as well. After not calling a hold the entire game you decide to call that ticky tack penalty? Cost the Bills at least a FG.... 

 

Oh well 

 

We won and this will be forgotten pretty quickly. 

The ref probably saw a forearm to the WR, which appeared to have happened from one angle, though it didn't happen.

[Dr.Sack]

57 minutes ago, rant_and_go_returns said:

 

They did review it!!!!

Best way to fix this is to have Pegula walk the sidelines with a black jack. When angry he is a very scary man.

They did. However this is the point lost on virtually every Bills fan. If one official had thrown a flag, I believe on a kickoff there are two back judges, let’s assume one of them threw his flag as he assumed he saw a forward pass. That means upon review under the hood the head official and the NFL didn’t have enough video evidence to overturn “the call on the field” that it was a forward pass. This is the critical point lost on this play. The fact that not one official threw a penalty flag on the lateral.

[Doc Brown]

The NFL needs to expand replays to allow coaches to challenge certain penalties like the CFL does imo.  Coaches should have three challenges whether they get it right or wrong and they should be able to use them on penalties even under two minutes.  I know the argument is it slows down the game, but I think fans would be more satisfied if a blatantly bad call that has the possibility of swinging a game (like we saw today) would be corrected.

[The Frankish Reich]

4 hours ago, Billzebubba said:

Crap like that is reviewable in CFL, and the DO overturn a lot

And why not? I suspect the league office is seeing exactly what we are seeing on TV replays.  There doesn't need to be an significant delay to overturn a call like that. We all saw it on replay in about 20 seconds. I understand the officials are going to make mistakes given the speed of the game.  When I saw it live I thought there might have been significant contact. There's just no downside to overturning it, and I don't think plays of that category ("targeting"/unnecessary roughness) should require a challenge flag. Replay review should just be automatic.

[Wily Dog]

i have watched the , Just give ti them, the music city forward pass, the Jacksonville pass interference call,, and todays call, and i think that the NFL thinks that is just Buffalo, a small market team , who does not mean much to them. I try to not think that it is a conspiracy or Vegas has anything to do with it , but today's penalty and the other ones over the years make believing in snow white somewhat hard. In all instances the penalties resulted in a loss or could have resulted in a loss.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Refs are like cops.  They defend their own even when bad calls are made.  The guy made a mistake.  You know at least one or more other ref saw that play and saw no penalty.  They should have picked up the flag.  

No he wasn't

If it wasn't Hughes then it was someone else.  I saw more than handful of plays where our defense was running full speed but going nowhere because they were being held from behind with no flags.

[2003Contenders]

The ref was late in throwing the flag too. At the time, I thought that maybe Gaines was arguing about whether or not the Chief player had gotten out of bounds or not and maybe got  too heated (a la Jerry Hughes a few weeks ago). When I heard the ref's explanation I couldn't believe it. 

 

I also thought it was odd that McD did not make a bigger fuss over the bogus flag. Maybe he just wanted to avoid another 15-yard penalty.

[NoSaint]

35 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I disagree as would most modern corporate communications directors.  Engage with your audience and own up to mistakes.  Otherwise you insult and alienate your customers.

 

 

Theres a difference between a catastrophic defect that can cause consequence to the consumer, and simply moving on with acceptable margins of error. No company is acknowledging every single mistake. In fact most avoid acknowledging as many as they can and then remedy as much of the remaining as quietly as possible.... leaving us to just hear about a small slice of them.