Who said Defense doesn't win Championships

[johnwalter]

cleveland now regretting not waiting for quinn?

[ALF]

Emotional , fired up defense by Ray Lewis and Sherman can rattle the more exacting offense.

 

If you can't protect the best franchise qb and run the ball, looks like a good OL is needed.

 

View of a Denver fan http://fromthesheds....r-synopsis.html

 

Who ever is drafting and making trades for Seattle is doing a great job.

Edited February 3, 2014 by ALF

[Prickly Pete]

Coaching is one of the keys here. The Bills have 3 young QBs with no experience. They have a D loaded with talent that should be the backbone of the team. So what do they do? Run a no huddle attack that maximizes possessions for both them and their opponent. Just idiotic. Unless your have the better offense on the field by a decent margin, running an up tempo offense makes zero sense.

 

 

 

yep. I posted that very early in the season (maybe even before it started). That was this silliest game plan they could have come up with under the circumstances.

[machine gun kelly]

Funny how the last time the #1 scoring offense faced the #1 scoring defense was us vs. the Giants. What did Parcells do but run the ball right down our throat.

 

Sounds familiar to last night. Regarding some of these other comments, we need a healthy consistent QB, and the running game along with the defense will continue to improve.

 

At the end of the night, what a boring superbowl. This was the worst in 15 years. I know no one cares on the board, but I did feel bad for Manning. He's a role model for a lot of young boys including my sons. He had one bad game last night. It also made me think how much stronger San Fran and Arizona are than Denver as they either beat or kept up with Seattle. Mark my words, Arizona will contend next year. What I would have given to have Arians as our coach. Not that I don't like Marrone, but Arians is a winner.

[papazoid]

Seattle could use a TE......and a RT

 

 

that team is going to be good for a while.

[RK_BillsFan]

So, i'm pretty glad this post was already made because I wanted to discuss Seattle's performance. First of all, idk how everyone else feels but, I really wanted Seattle to win. The seahawks have been, for the most part of their history, the loveable losers. The last 4 years, the entire culture of that franchise has changed rewarding their fans. Now onto the team itself.

 

I feel that this team is not just built as "A Team That Wins Championships with Defense". This team feels different, it's not the 2000 Ravens, or the Bucs' Superbowl team. They have an amazing Defence, and a dynamic Offence that is run by an extremely efficient QB. Are WIlson's numbers eye popping? nope.

 

Do they need to be?

 

Wilson is in his second year. His numbers are good, not great, but not pedestrian. He has less weapons than Tom Brady, and a monster of a RB to change the pace of the game. His ability to be an effective scrambler as well as his pocket awareness which was entirely on display last night, makes him a very dangerous weapon.

 

That being said. I was trying to find anyway to say that the broncos did well last night. Unfortunately I can't justify anything. They never got the run game going. Mannings are looked like garbage. And the Dink and Dunk passes all game never got them anything.

 

Manning had 8.2 yards per pass.

Wilson had 11.4

 

The broncos had 26 yds rushing

The seahawks had 86

 

Even if you take away the pick 6, and the kickoff return, and the terrible fumble trying to get more yards, the Broncos were simply not going to win last night. They were outplayed, in every part of the game. Not to mention, that at the start of the game, their D did a fantastic job of keeping the game respectable at least in the first quarter.

 

Now of course only time will tell, but i feel as though, Unlike the 2000 Ravens, and the Bucs, the Seahawks who are extremely young as a team, will probably be in superbowl contention for the next few years.

[MDH]

Now of course only time will tell, but i feel as though, Unlike the 2000 Ravens, and the Bucs, the Seahawks who are extremely young as a team, will probably be in superbowl contention for the next few years.

 

As you said, they are a complete team. They will be in contention until the price tags of their players pushes them to make tough decisions. They won't be able to keep everybody but fortunately for them they have a good sized window and won't have to make too many of those decisions for a few years.

[Doc]

2011 giants vs pats?

2007 giants vs pats?

2010 and 2009 seems to me team with best D won

2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006...

[NoSaint]

 

I don't think Wilson's play has been above average at all. He was very pedestrian the last 6 weeks.

 

Tonight he did everything he was asked and we saw the result.

 

The last 3 games before tonight he certainly struggled at times and Seattle lost one, had the niners throwing into the endzone to potentially take the lead and if not for the saints gaffe would've had the saints with 1-2 shots at the endzone from the 30 to possibly win.

 

So, I'll stick with great teams win championships and qb is by far the most important position on those teams.

[thewildrabbit]

Coaching is one of the keys here. The Bills have 3 young QBs with no experience. They have a D loaded with talent that should be the backbone of the team. So what do they do? Run a no huddle attack that maximizes possessions for both them and their opponent. Just idiotic. Unless your have the better offense on the field by a decent margin, running an up tempo offense makes zero sense.

 

If the Bills did what the Hawks did - run the ball, keep the opposing team's offense off the field and allow your D to dominate they'd have a few more wins to show for it, I fully believe that. No, they wouldn't suddenly be the Seahawks but they'd have given themselves a better chance to win.

 

It's the old saying, if I play Michael Jordan one on one to 30 I have zero chance of winning. But if I play him one on one to 1 I have a chance. Minimize possessions and the teams become more equal. Maximize them and the divide gets wider and wider. It's not rocket science

What they did made perfect sense to me. I admire what they tried to do on offense, and just not the way they went about it.

 

 

First, what they tried to do! What the Bills offense tried to do was run the old "K-gun hurry up offense" along with a "read option" for several reasons. That same K-gun with a 2-3 WR slightly spread offense is what worked so well for Kelly, Thurman Thomas back in 1990.

 

Now, the read option part went right down the ceramic convenience when the rookie QB hurt his wheels, (knee) as the "read option" with the QB running was no longer viable.

 

The hurry up, up tempo offense was brought in mostly because the Bills rookie QB's were so raw that the coaches didn't want them to have to read constantly changing complex 3rd down defenses. So by instilling the hurry up it kept the opposing defenses from bring in complex blitz packages in passing situations, AND it also allowed the offense to wear out the starting defense by limiting defensive substitutions.

 

Which is exactly what worked for that 1990 Buffalo Bills highest scoring offensive team in the league that year. The Bills were so good at running that offense it took years for the NFL defenses to learn how to overcome it.

 

 

Now, the way the Bills went about setting up that offense is the HUGE difference between the Seahawks and the Buffalo Bills this year. Lets not forget that the Bills had the #2 rushing offense right behind the Eagles #1 rushing offense, and Seattle was #4 in the NFL.

 

The disparity between the teams starts and ends with the quality of the offensive lines ability to control the line of scrimmage by either passing or running.

 

To begin with, both the Bills starting RT & RG were pulled off the waiver wire, as cast offs from other teams. So both players weren't even viewed as adequate backups for other teams. Yet they both found a home in Buffalo. While not as bad as Colin Brown bad, you wouldn't want them on a playoff team. Then with the poor play at LG all season it was very difficult for the Bills to protect the young QB's on the road, and were #25 in run blocking.

 

What does it mean to you that while the Bills lead the NFL in rushing attempts, and were the #2 team in rushing. Yet graded as the #25 team in run blocking!

 

Think back to the Bills 2013 off season, and letting LG Andy Levitre got to Tennessee, and then replacing him with two of the very worst players in the NFL last year in LG Colin Brown & backup David Snow. Both players were cut and gone from the team by week six. Then the guy who was brought in to be the back up center ultimately became the starting LG after week six.

 

 

Now, because of the Colin Brown / Sam Young situation it tells me here is where the great disparity is on this team compared to other teams. It appears that there is nobody on the Bills coaching staff or FO who can discern the difference between a top O line player and a bad player. The Bills were exceedingly lucky to have not suffered injuries to that O line after week six.

 

So the Bills did do exactly what the Seahawks did last season with a top 10 defense, and #4 team against the pass. They also were better in terms of rushing yardage with the Bills @ #2, and the Seahawks @# 4.

 

The biggest difference between the teams came with that Bills offense, passing-rushing attack not being able to control the clock or line of scrimmage. The Bills were one of the worst teams in the NFL in three downs and out. The Bills defense spent way to much time on the field, and were wore down by the fourth quarter.

 

JMO

Edited February 3, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[papazoid]

the play of Seattles LB's and SS really stood out.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Complete teams win championships. The biggest position being qb, as it's one of the only position of 22 that will immediately knock you out without above average play.

This!

 

That old defense wins clich has been debunked many times over. There are a lot of different ways to build a championship team, and enough defense is one of them. Just like enough offense. Enough of a running game, enough of etc..

 

I expect to hear all the oversimplification of building a winner now that the Super Bowl is over. THE FORMULA is.......blah blah blah. Leave that to the media please.

Edited February 3, 2014 by 75Bills

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Hmmm. Top defense and top running game against the most pass happy dominant offense in the history of the league and the biggest game in the biggest stage was one of the biggest blowouts in Super Bowl history.

If you recall what I have said many times, NO QB that has lead the NFL in passing yards (and possibly scoring) has ever won a SB.

 

Offense fills the seats in the regular season, but Defense wins Championships.

 

Kurt Warner was the closest top ranked passing leader to win one.

 

He ranked #2 in passing yards in 1999 in his victory against the Home Run Throw Forward Tennessee Titans.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ear_by_year.htm

Edited February 3, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[section122]

This!

 

That old defense wins clich has been debunked many times over. There are a lot of different ways to build a championship team, and enough defense is one of them. Just like enough offense. Enough of a running game, enough of etc..

 

I expect to hear all the oversimplification of building a winner now that the Super Bowl is over. THE FORMULA is.......blah blah blah. Leave that to the media please.

I just simply disagree with this. An excellent defense can win a championship with an okay offense. It seems to be much more difficult for an excellent offense to win with an okay defense. Yes there are many ways to skin a cat but having a really good defense has proven to be much more important than a really good offense. Nobody is playing in the super bowl without a pretty good team but one that favors defense to offense has been very successful recently.

 

Some stats I found:

Since 1990, teams ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense are 10-2 in the Super Bowl. Both losses (2010 Packers over Steelers, 2004 Patriots over Eagles) came to a team that was also ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense. Overall, teams ranked 1st or 2nd in scoring defense are 22-11. (after last night that can be updated to 11-2 and 23-11.

 

- 31 of 46 Super Bowl winners had a top 5 scoring defense. 23 of 46 Super Bowl losers had a top 5 scoring defense. 30 Super Bowl winners had a top 5 total defense. 18 losers were top 5 in total defense. (This is now 32 of 48 and 31 winners having a top 5 total defense)

 

 

So 67% of Super Bowl winners have had top 5 scoring defenses that is certainly a trend.

[NoSaint]

If you recall what I have said many times, NO QB that has lead the NFL in passing yards (and possibly scoring) has ever won a SB.

 

Offense fills the seats in the regular season, but Defense wins Championships.

 

Right, because while leading the league in passing yards takes a good to great qb typically it says more about a defense that is giving up points and a running game that isn't fully functional. Obviously not always true, but you normally don't see the attempts required if you a operating on all cylinders.

[DallasBillsFan1]

Maybe Buffalo doesn't need a prolific offense. Seattle's offense certainly wasn't anything special, but good enough to get job done (with our old RB no less). Right now Buffalo's defense is really good (except for run D) so why not "super size" it by doing the following:

1 - pay Byrd ..keep him!

2 - draft the best no risk LB to help top the run

3 - use FA to strengthen bench ad safety position

 

In other words, crate our own Legion of Boom in Buffalo.

[BuffaloRebound]

49ers would've done the same thing to the Broncos. Reminds me of the NFC East in the 90's. Harbaugh and Carroll are great coaches and their dislike for each other raises the stakes. Their teams play with a violence and intensity unmatched by rest of the NFL.

[Mr. WEO]

No, he really believes that.

2011 giants vs pats?

2007 giants vs pats?

2010 and 2009 seems to me team with best D won

 

The topic being discussed is whether great/dominating D's win championships (irrespective of the offense, according to some), not whether a SB team's D played well enough on one day to win a SB.

 

The Giants D's in 2007 and 2011 were pretty bad. The team went on a run in the playoffs both years. In those 2 years, the pats D gave up fewer than 17 ppg in the playoffs--in fact, only 1 point more than the Giants D on average.

 

In 2010, the Packers had a top D, but also a top 10 O.

 

The 2009 Saints had a bad defense, especially against the pass--but they had the best O in the league.

 

Even the once great Baltimore D was mediocre when they entered the playoffs last year. They had a top 10 O, though. They made it to (and won) the SB because their offense (mainly Flacco) played well.

 

The Colts in 2006 came into the playoffs with a bad defense that perked up (except for the AFCC game).

 

The Steelers had a top 5 D in 2006, but also needed a top 10 O to win.

 

The pats had Top 5 (points) defense and offense in 2004. Top 5 D (top 12 O) in 2003. In 2001, both O and D were ranked 6th.

 

In their 3 SB wins, the pats D gave up over 22 ppg on average. In their 2 SB losses, they gave up only 15.5 PPG.

 

There is no questioning that the dominance of the Seattle D won that game yesterday. Therefore, the inevitable "who said defense doesn't win championships" is immediately whipped out.

 

But it's my contention that the combination (or disparity) of dominating (season long) defense and mediocre Offense rarely produces a SB winner. Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore in the last decade in a half.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[atlbillsfan1975]

Give a good D two weeks to get ready for Manning or Brady or Brees and they can beat them. Now Denver shot itself in the foot many times over...But Seattles D was ready for everything.

Edited February 3, 2014 by atlbillsfan1975

[chris heff]

 

 

Defense wins every 14-15 years..

Giants twice, Ravens and Seahawks, that's four times in the last ten years.

[Dr. Fong]

Everyone of Seattle's linebackers are bigger and just as fast as Kiko. Hell I'm not sure Chancellor isn't bigger than Kiko. My God they are good. We need to bring in at least three new bigger guys in FA and the draft.

 

 

You may be right and Thomas may be better too but the Bills may never have the chance to sign them. The Bills have an All-Pro FS in Byrd. If you want to give up on him, give him away for nothing, and then move A. Williams to FS what do you do at SS? That just leaves yet another gaping hole on the defense. Searcy can't cover. He can't even tackle that well.

 

Too many years of looking for cover 2 small LBs.

[C.Biscuit97]

No disrespect but I'm glad they didn't give the MVP to Russell Wilson just because he's the QB. He's going to be a really good one for a long time but that defense was the MVPs all year. That's why W-L records for QBs is such a flawed stat. A lot of QBs would have produced Ws with that defense. It's like what the Jets tried to do with Sanchez except Wilson is much better than him.

 

Call me a homer (I've been called worse), but a few more pieces and I can see the Bills being a winning team using the Seattle formula.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

No disrespect but I'm glad they didn't give the MVP to Russell Wilson just because he's the QB. He's going to be a really good one for a long time but that defense was the MVPs all year. That's why W-L records for QBs is such a flawed stat. A lot of QBs would have produced Ws with that defense. It's like what the Jets tried to do with Sanchez except Wilson is much better than him.

 

Call me a homer (I've been called worse), but a few more pieces and I can see the Bills being a winning team using the Seattle formula.

 

Seattle's formula is pretty hard. It basically involves having an all-time great defense and a superb, playmaking QB.

[TheFunPolice]

I think it's because there is far more pressure on the offense than the defense.

 

The high powered offense needs to score a lot of points for the team to win. As soon as things start to go wrong, the game gets away. You can't be balanced and run. You start to force things. That favors the D.

 

Also, as someone else said, it's easier to play amped up on defense. You attack, destroy, and hit. The Broncos had one 12 or 13 play drive where they had gone 50 yards! LOL

 

That Seattle D will give you a 3 yard catch and then they will destroy your WR....

[thebandit27]

Can we wait for Chancellor's contract and pay him instead? Chancellor is 10x the safety as Byrd.

 

We don't have to wait...Chancellor signed a 4-year, $28M contract extension back in April. Here's the details of the deal, which kicks in at the start of the new league year:

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/kam-chancellor/

 

 

I don't think there is an O-line in the league that could stop Seattle tonight. Building O-line's is important, but Seattle tossed around a Denver O-line that didn't let Manning get touched for 2 straight playoff games.

 

Yep...if anything, this game was a testament to building a great defense with depth. Between the two teams, Denver and Seattle's OLs were polar opposites this season. Denver's OL was consistent, stout, and solid in both phases of offense, while Seattle's featured 9 different starters that kept Wilson running for his life and forced Lynch to make most of his yards on his own.

 

Biggest difference in this game was that Seattle combined excellent (albeit illegal--but hey, the new trend will be defensive holding on every play, so good on 'em) coverage with a relentless pass rush, while Denver had neither--that can happen when 2 of your 3 best pass rushers (Miller and Wolfe) go down for the season.

[TheFunPolice]

Seattle's formula is pretty hard. It basically involves having an all-time great defense and a superb, playmaking QB.

 

I agree....

 

Some people don't seem to realize that Seattle is DEEP. That secondary was missing one of its key players in Browner. And they were still brutally effective.

 

That entire team is stacked with talent, from the OL to the DL to the LB to the WR to the secondary. Heck, they didn't have Rice last night and they only got Harvin back last night.

 

They are like a Madden video game team. And they are young. They could very well be right back next year. As good and as physical as the 49ers are, they have blown them out a couple of times in recent memory.

Edited February 3, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[bisonbrigade]

I say the that's add onto our defense and get a stud run blocker or two on the line. open some big old holes for Fred and CJ. That will help out EJ the best. Then draft a LB or two that can help Kiko stuff the run.

[Solomon Grundy]

 

 

Defense wins every 14-15 years..

 

Didn't Chris Berman state that 38 out of 45 Super Bowls were won by top 10 defenses?

[Prickly Pete]

Let's just do whatever Seattle did, and then we will win. Simple.

[Smiley Dear]

No one ever did.

[K-9]

No disrespect but I'm glad they didn't give the MVP to Russell Wilson just because he's the QB. He's going to be a really good one for a long time but that defense was the MVPs all year. That's why W-L records for QBs is such a flawed stat. A lot of QBs would have produced Ws with that defense. It's like what the Jets tried to do with Sanchez except Wilson is much better than him.

 

Call me a homer (I've been called worse), but a few more pieces and I can see the Bills being a winning team using the Seattle formula.

 

I thought Avril deserved strong consideration for MVP as well.

 

Love it when D players get the recognition like that. Well deserved.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Gordio]

 

 

Seattle's formula is pretty hard. It basically involves having an all-time great defense and a superb, playmaking QB.

 

Just about to post the same thing. Bis cuit is right, with Seatle's defense you can win with any number of QB's I suppose, but pretty tough to build a defense as good as Seatle's. A good QB will mask a lot of flaws on a team.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

One thing is fore sure, the Bills need to re sign Byrd

 

 

CBF

[McD]

If you recall what I have said many times, NO QB that has lead the NFL in passing yards (and possibly scoring) has ever won a SB.

 

Offense fills the seats in the regular season, but Defense wins Championships.

 

Kurt Warner was the closest top ranked passing leader to win one.

 

He ranked #2 in passing yards in 1999 in his victory against the Home Run Throw Forward Tennessee Titans.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ear_by_year.htm

 

And he should've been playing against a top 5 defense in the Bills in that SB!!!!!!!

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

Stupid plays don't win games either. It started from the get go when the hotshot Bronco returner decided returning the opening kickoff from 9 yards deep in the end zone was an intelligent move. He got to the 12, which ensured that the errant snap on the next play would reach the end zone. It was downhill from there.

That's a good point which I noted at the time. That ball should have never been brought out. It's only a 7-8 yard difference, but that boneheaded play changed the whole game. Starting at the 20 is routine, it's familiar and starting from the 12 turned into a disaster. Early on Lynch was getting shutdown and Wilson had the jitters and was missing open receivers. If that returner had taken a knee, we could have seen a completely different outcome. As for "defense wins championships", I have noticed that it has become en vogue the last couple of years for announcers and analysts to dismiss that saying. "It's a passing league, the rules favor offense, it's a qb driven league". You hear stuff like this all the time. Well this Super Bowl destroyed that logic. The leagues #1 defense nearly shutout the leagues #1 offense in a blowout.

[Dean Cain]

Manning is done so is Brady their time is over. It is a new NFL, you need mobile athletic QBs. They may keep their teams competitive but neither one will win another super bowl. Mark my words.

 

Those words would be much bolder if these QBs weren't going to be 38 & 37 next year. Care to make another prediction Nostradamus?

[Pneumonic]

Seattle's formula is pretty hard. It basically involves having an all-time great defense and a superb, playmaking QB.

.... who only counts $800k against the cap.

[yungmack]

A couple of odd things I noticed yesterday:

 

Chris Berman had a stat on 4 of the great SB dynasties & they were the youngest team, or close to the youngest team, when their run began: 70s Steelers, 80s Niners, 90s Cowboys & 2000s Pats. Note that the Seahawks are among the youngest ever.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention the 70s Dolphins. They lost on their first shot, then won two and had that undefeated season.

 

The Seahawks make a very big deal about the "12th Man." Seattle streets were hung with 12th man flags, etc. So, for pure weirdness, both halfs began with a Seattle score in 12 seconds, for a total of 9 points, which was enough to have won the game even if they didn't score again.

Edited February 3, 2014 by yungmack

[Like A Mofo]

Defense wins every 14-15 years..

 

Pittsburgh didn't have a great defense?

[apuszczalowski]

A couple of odd things I noticed yesterday:

 

Chris Berman had a stat on 4 of the great SB dynasties & they were the youngest team, or close to the youngest team, when their run began: 70s Steelers, 80s Niners, 90s Cowboys & 2000s Pats. Note that the Seahawks are among the youngest ever.

 

The Seahawks make a very big deal about the "12th Man." Seattle streets were hung with 12th man flags, etc. So, for pure weirdness, both halfs began with a Seattle score in 12 seconds, for a total of 9 points, which was enough to have won the game even if they didn't score again.

The NFL is rigged!