Is Mahomes at Brady Levels?

[st pete gogolak]

7 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Just a question without passing judgement. Would your feelings be different if it was the Bills going for their third ring this weekend with Allen being a 2 time MVP and the same was being said? No wrong answer.

Nope.  Rings should not be sole criteria of greatness.

[boyst]

10 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

He's the golden boy of the league, because he generates interest if you love him, or if you hate him.

 

So there's no downside in terms of publicity to D-ride Mahomes, his annoying brother, and his karen of a wife. 

That's it. That's all. 

[H2o]

All of the ESPN shows are the same. Usually the same useless drivel from the same bobbleheads on a daily basis. Every now and again someone will shock you by giving an intelligent response or an intelligent in depth argument for where they stand, but it's typically the same narrative driven nonsense by the same clowns all piled into the VW together. 

[KDIGGZ]

Mahomes would have 3 rings at 28. He deserves any accolades he receives. Nobody has that kind of resume. I don't know if he will get to 7 given the age of Kelce and Andy Reid but he's either going to be the best or the 2nd best player of all time when all is said and done.

[Donuts and Doritos]

The title of this post is great. Well done. 

 

[teef]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

He's the golden boy of the league, because he generates interest if you love him, or if you hate him.

 

So there's no downside in terms of publicity to D-ride Mahomes, his annoying brother, and his karen of a wife. 

nailed it.  i more or less appreciate mahomes, but last week i saw a graphic of him wearing a crown, cape, and holding a scepter.  i wanted to smash my tv.

[davefan66]

Love GMFB, but can’t watch right now. Can’t stand hearing about him, or swift.  Just too much. I usually watch all day coverage on Super Bowl Sunday, and can’t this time.

[BuffaloBillyG]

2 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

Nope.  Rings should not be sole criteria of greatness.

Ok. And I agree with that. Players like Marino, Kelly, Warren Moon., Barry Sanders, Larry Fitzgerald..all great without them.

 

Then again, when you add the  MVPs, the numbers and the things he's accomplished during his time as a starter thus far it at the very minimum makes it a conversation. I mean, win or lose Sunday with what he's done this far he's at minimum a HoF QB and on the first ballot even if he never takes another snap in the NFL in my opinion.

[BullBuchanan]

28 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

I enjoy Mike Greenberg and Get Up but yesterday and today they ran segments entitled “Does a Super Bowl Win Make Mahones an Immortal?”.  The point being that no NFL player has won two MVP’s and three championships in his first seven seasons.  Only players who have accomplished that are Bird, Russell, LaFluer, Musial, Mantle and DiMaggio (admittedly a pretty awesome list).  
 

This stuff drives me crazy. Football is the ultimate team game. It’s not tennis. It’s not golf. Heck, even in basketball one player has immeasurably more impact on the game than any one football player.   Please tell me that Brady would have won 7 SB’s if Brady’s Colts had to beat Manning’s Patriots every year?  And I give Brady enormous credit for (1) winning 4 rings after age 36 (just insane) and (2) winning a title with the Bucs.  
 

If the Bills had kept their draft pick and selected Mahones would he be going for his third ring this Sunday?  Mahones is good. He is very good.  But please, please stop measuring QB’s in a vacuum based solely on the number of rings that they have.

It's not "ball washing" when he's the best player in the league by miles, and will be no lower than 2nd in the GOAT conversation with a Super Bowl win on sunday. He could retire today and he'd be a first ballot unanimous hall of Famer. He's earned ever ounce of praise he gets.

Edited February 8 by BullBuchanan

[zow2]

I don't ever recall the Bills or local sports talk guys mentioning Patrick Mahomes as a potential Buffalo Bills pick,..  For that reason I never pay attention to the people that says the Bills failed by trading the pick.  He was never getting drafted here.  I don't think the Bills were selecting a high QB at all in that draft.  The real losers were Chicago taking Trubisky #2 overall.   KC was smart,,,  they saw something no one else did and traded up ahead of the Saints to grab him.

[Mailman]

1 minute ago, davefan66 said:

Love GMFB, but can’t watch right now. Can’t stand hearing about him, or swift.  Just too much. I usually watch all day coverage on Super Bowl Sunday, and can’t this time.

I've been on sabbatical since the Bills loss. Amazingly, I have yet to watch one sports talk program or listen to any podcasts or WGR.  I'm shocked I've been able to do it, but will try to maintain as long as I can. Tbh, ignorance is bliss! 

[The Jokeman]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Greenberg does well what his mission is, to be over the top controversial.

 

I am just grateful the Jets were so bad so we done have to hear his JETS JETS JETS JETS praise.  I vividly recall how giddy Greenberg was with Zach Wilson after his first pre season game claiming he would be better than Joe Namath (not really too hard).

 

I have always thought the overemphasis on winning a SB judging QBs is a joke.  A lot of media pundits claim Jim Kelly wasn't great because he never got a ring as if he was the one that missed a 47 yard field goal.

Kelly might not have missed the kick but he had a bunch of misses in that game to win, when it was clear that the Giants were shutting down the passing game Jim (who called plays) elected to keep on passing instead of running Thurman. He also had really bad clock management in that final drive as often Thurman. After Thurman got tackled at the 29, Kelly had 9 seconds on the clock. He elected to spike the ball instead of running a final play to try and get it closer.

[st pete gogolak]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Ok. And I agree with that. Players like Marino, Kelly, Warren Moon., Barry Sanders, Larry Fitzgerald..all great without them.

 

Then again, when you add the  MVPs, the numbers and the things he's accomplished during his time as a starter thus far it at the very minimum makes it a conversation. I mean, win or lose Sunday with what he's done this far he's at minimum a HoF QB and on the first ballot even if he never takes another snap in the NFL in my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong. I agree he is a great QB, but so many more factors go into winning a championship: HC, OC, decent OL and skill positions. Defense for God’s sakes.  Just hate when commentators act like it’s Borg v. McEnroe.

[Chicken Boo]

Like it or not, you're witnessing greatness.  

 

If Josh was going for his 3rd Super Bowl ring right now, you'd all be calling him the greatest player of all time.  

[Steptide]

Maybe it's because I've become desensitized to it, but I still feel like Brady was way better 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, st pete gogolak said:

Don’t get me wrong. I agree he is a great QB, but so many more factors go into winning a championship: HC, OC, decent OL and skill positions. Defense for God’s sakes.  Just hate when commentators act like it’s Borg v. McEnroe.

I get ya. However, to play devil's advocate for a moment....

 

How many championships do the Chiefs have with say, Mitch Trubisky? 

 

How many wins in a season do the Bills have without Josh Allen?

 

We all know it takes more than a QB to win and wins shouldn't be solely a QB stat. That makes all the sense in the world being as much of a team sport as it is. Yet, QB is still the most important factor in it and it isn't particularly close. 

[HappyDays]

Mahomes is a great QB, one of the best I've ever seen... I have no problem with anyone pointing that out. What bothers me is the ongoing narrative that he is the sole reason for the Chiefs success in recent years. QBs have less of an effect on their team than normal discussion would have you think. People act like QBs are responsible for like 80% of their team's success when in fact it's closer to 40%, probably even less than that to be honest.

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, Steptide said:

Maybe it's because I've become desensitized to it, but I still feel like Brady was way better 

I think Brady was better at reading defenses/taking what they gave him. Whereas Mahomes is best in improvising or going off script, granted sometimes he's more lucky than good as many a time he should be intercepted and he's not or guys pass on tackling him because his fake sideline stuff etc. As much as I hate Mahomes I do have to credit him like Brady he always seems to be not rattled, something Josh has to learn to do TBH. 

[Heels20X6]

9 minutes ago, zow2 said:

I don't ever recall the Bills or local sports talk guys mentioning Patrick Mahomes as a potential Buffalo Bills pick,..  For that reason I never pay attention to the people that says the Bills failed by trading the pick.  He was never getting drafted here.  I don't think the Bills were selecting a high QB at all in that draft.  The real losers were Chicago taking Trubisky #2 overall.   KC was smart,,,  they saw something no one else did and traded up ahead of the Saints to grab him.

 

I think this is what bothers me the most about any Mahomes discourse.  The revisionist history that the Bills goofed by not taking him and trading the pick.  Those of us around this board would all agree that maybe a handful of people liked Mahomes as the Bills pick in that spot.  Majority of us didn't think at all that he was on the Bills radar.

 

Also, does it really matter since they drafted Allen anyways?  We're not 2 time Super Bowl champions because Mahomes has been light years better than Allen, they have the rings because Reid is light years ahead of McDermott.

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, Heels20X6 said:

 

I think this is what bothers me the most about any Mahomes discourse.  The revisionist history that the Bills goofed by not taking him and trading the pick.  Those of us around this board would all agree that maybe a handful of people liked Mahomes as the Bills pick in that spot.  Majority of us didn't think at all that he was on the Bills radar.

 

Also, does it really matter since they drafted Allen anyways?  We're not 2 time Super Bowl champions because Mahomes has been light years better than Allen, they have the rings because Reid is light years ahead of McDermott.

 

Even in years when the Chiefs didn't have a great defense, they still managed to play decent in the playoffs. Something McDermott's defense hasn't done enough of.

[Logic]

Pat Mahomes is on pace to be called the Greatest of All Time.

Given his age and career trajectory, there's every possibility that he matches or exceeds Brady's ring total.

As much as I love Josh Allen, and as much as I personally believe that Allen is as good as (if not better than) Mahomes, until the Bills start winning rings and Josh starts winning MVPs, I have no choice but to concede that Mahomes is NFL QB1 and may go down as the All Time QB1.

The sooner others accept this, the better.

We can all "woulda, coulda, shoulda" and discuss coaching and surrounding variables and blah blah blah til we're blue in the face, but facts is facts: Mahomes is the best QB on earth right now.

[SoonerBillsFan]

25 minutes ago, boyst said:

That's it. That's all. 

Geet to Da choppah!

[mjt328]

20 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's not "ball washing" when he's the best player int he league by miles, and will be no lower than 2nd in the GOAT conversation with a Super Bowl win on sunday. He could retire today and he'd be a first ballot unanimous hall of Famer. He's earned ever ounce of praise he gets.

 

But he's really not the "best player in the league by miles."  That's the issue.

 

Statistically speaking, Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen are almost identical over the last 4 seasons.  Yards, Touchdowns, Etc.  Even their head-to-head record is 4-3, with most of those games coming down to the final minutes and finishing less than one-score apart.  The only obvious separation between Mahomes/Allen is in postseason success.  The Bills win in the regular season.  The Chiefs win in the playoffs and end up in the Super Bowl. 

 

Of course the media is going to turn all of that upon the Quarterback (or possibly Head Coach depending on which narrative they are pushing at the time).  But that's a lazy take.  In the 13 seconds game, Allen put the winning score on the board and then watched from the bench while the rest of the team choked it away.  A few weeks ago, he fired the go-ahead TD into the Endzone...only to have his Left Tackle get knocked into him during the release.  Two plays later, his kicker missed the chance to at least tie.  

 

Mahomes is great.  And he deserves plenty of praise.  

But it's the same argument we saw in the past with Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning.  One gets propped up higher simply because of team success.

 

Edited February 8 by mjt328

[Gregg]

Just now, Logic said:

Pat Mahomes is on pace to be called the Greatest of All Time.

Given his age and career trajectory, there's every possibility that he matches or exceeds Brady's ring total.

As much as I love Josh Allen, and as much as I personally believe that Allen is as good as (if not better than) Mahomes, until the Bills start winning rings and Josh starts winning MVPs, I have no choice but to concede that Mahomes is NFL QB1 and may go down as the All Time QB1.

The sooner others accept this, the better.

We can all "woulda, coulda, shoulda" and discuss coaching and surrounding variables and blah blah blah til we're blue in the face, but facts is facts: Mahomes is the best QB on earth right now.

 

He is the best QB in the game today. There is no doubt about that. But if Reid retires as some media speculate and Kelce is also getting near the end of his playing career, I don't know if he will catch Brady. It depends on how well his GM can continue to build the team around him. Right now, he is 5 Championships away from tying Brady. He still has a long way to go before being called the greatest. Hopefully along the way Allen and the Bills can slow him down by winning the Lombardi and bringing it to WNY a few times as well.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

39 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Just a question without passing judgement. Would your feelings be different if it was the Bills going for their third ring this weekend with Allen being a 2 time MVP and the same was being said? No wrong answer.

 

Exactly, too many posters here are way too easily slighted by everything not pro Bills.

[eball]

I'm not going to even read this thread, but you're talking about a QB who hasn't failed to reach the conference championship game in ANY of his seasons as a starting QB.

 

What exactly are people supposed to say about him?

 

[babulator]

IDK, as a guy that hated TB12 as a Patriot and nemesis, it's pretty wild to see how quickly people forget about him. For my money, Mahomes still has miles to go to be in that company. I'd be shocked if Pat has even close to the longevity that TB12 had. To do it that long, with soo much different personel and coaches is pretty incredible. Not hating on him, just noticing how quickly everyone's ready to move TB12 down a peg.

[SoonerBillsFan]

Meh don't care. Damn good QB, but he isn't my QB.  The guy fell into the perfect storm there, but we started to see major cracks in his armor with losses and his fit throwing. Lose Kelsey and Cinderella doesn't turn into a pumpkin, but Cinderellas less attractive cousin who is known for her great personality. 

Edited February 8 by SoonerBillsFan

[Bill from NYC]

50 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

 

If the Bills had kept their draft pick and selected Mahones would he be going for his third ring this Sunday?

Without McDermott I would say probably yes.

[transient]

8 minutes ago, Heels20X6 said:

 

I think this is what bothers me the most about any Mahomes discourse.  The revisionist history that the Bills goofed by not taking him and trading the pick.  Those of us around this board would all agree that maybe a handful of people liked Mahomes as the Bills pick in that spot.  Majority of us didn't think at all that he was on the Bills radar.

 

Also, does it really matter since they drafted Allen anyways?  We're not 2 time Super Bowl champions because Mahomes has been light years better than Allen, they have the rings because Reid is light years ahead of McDermott.

Pretty sure Whaley indicated if they used the pick on a QB, Watson was likely his choice... think about that for a second... 

 

There was little consensus in that draft wrt QB talent. What I remember was Mahomes rising later in the process, but there was no one predicting that he'd be the player that he turned out to be... though if I recall, TPegs actually "loved" Mahomes.

[Gregg]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

I'm not going to even read this thread, but you're talking about a QB who hasn't failed to reach the conference championship game in ANY of his seasons as a starting QB.

 

What exactly are people supposed to say about him?

 

 

He wouldn't have reached the conference championship in one season if a certain team didn't have a 13 seconds choke job. Stupid Bills.

[BullBuchanan]

12 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

But he's really not the "best player in the league by miles."  That's the issue.

 

Statistically speaking, Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen are almost identical over the last 4 seasons.  Yards, Touchdowns, Etc.  Even their head-to-head record is 4-3, with most of those games coming down to the final minutes and finishing less than one-score apart.  The only obvious separation between Mahomes/Allen is in postseason success.  The Bills win in the regular season.  The Chiefs win in the playoffs and end up in the Super Bowl. 

 

Of course the media is going to turn all of that upon the Quarterback (or possibly Head Coach depending on which narrative they are pushing at the time).  But that's a lazy take.  In the 13 seconds game, Allen put the winning score on the board and then watched from the bench while the rest of the team choked it away.  A few weeks ago, he fired the go-ahead TD into the Endzone...only to have his Left Tackle get knocked into him during the release.  Two plays later, his kicker missed the chance to at least tie.  

 

Mahomes is great.  And he deserves plenty of praise.  

But it's the same argument we saw in the past with Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning.  One gets propped up higher simply because of team success.

 

You know that high level statistics don't measure the success of the best player, right? It's the small things they do that don't show up on traditional box scores that are the reason they accumulate the stats. People are using the same argument about stats to argue why Allen should be MVP when it's cl3ear to anyone who watched the games that Lamar was the best QB int he regular season (though also clear that he wasn't the best player)

There's a reason that Mahomes is constantly chasing Super Bowls while all Allen has are excuses about how the people around him failed him. Allen's a great QB, but acting like he and Mahomes are even close to being peers is the kind of level of delusion that stops us from looking at the real problems with our team.

Edited February 8 by BullBuchanan

[zow2]

11 minutes ago, Heels20X6 said:

 

I think this is what bothers me the most about any Mahomes discourse.  The revisionist history that the Bills goofed by not taking him and trading the pick.  Those of us around this board would all agree that maybe a handful of people liked Mahomes as the Bills pick in that spot.  Majority of us didn't think at all that he was on the Bills radar.

 

Also, does it really matter since they drafted Allen anyways?  We're not 2 time Super Bowl champions because Mahomes has been light years better than Allen, they have the rings because Reid is light years ahead of McDermott.

 

Yes,  Reid > McDermott,  their FG kicker hits a clutch long FG to send one playoff game to OT,  our guy misses a critical FG in the breeze.  In a game no one can stop anyone, KC wins the OT coin toss.  So be it. The teams are actually pretty even....Mahomes is obviously great and the Chiefs are not tight in the clutch moments.... and I contend they also have some lady luck on their side.

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

But it's the same argument we saw in the past with Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning.  One gets propped up higher simply because of team success.

 

It's funny because Manning himself is a good example of what you're referring to. His 2nd Super Bowl win came in arguably the worst individual season of his career. Brady is a good example too. His career was declared over after his final clunker of a season in New England. Instead he migrated to the best roster in the NFL and immediately won another Super Bowl. But for some reason it all gets boiled down to just the QBs.

[eball]

28 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

He wouldn't have reached the conference championship in one season if a certain team didn't have a 13 seconds choke job. Stupid Bills.

 

If it makes you feel any better, the Bills are really the only team that has almost kept them out of it...twice.

 

[Gregg]

Just now, eball said:

 

If it makes you feel any better, the Bills are really the only team that has almost kept them out of it...twice.

 

 

Not really. I would feel better if they did keep them out twice. Maybe next year. At the very least the Chiefs should finally have some competition in the division with Harbaugh and the Chargers.

[technobot]

At least we'll always have his unhinged heel turn after the (legitimate, literally nothing to complain about) offside penalty.

 

The only thing missing was a WWE style bit where CBS cuts to a nondescript room in the bowels of Arrowhead stadium:

 

Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelce are taking turns working over Kadarius Toney with a steel chair.

Mahomes: "It was the greatest play in the history of the NFL!"

Kelce: "It was my first passing touchdown you stupid piece of *****! Taylor was going to write a song!"

 

Andy Reid walks in and bellows, "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?" 

Mahomes and Kelce back off momentarily. Out of nowhere Reid clocks Toney with the Chiefs offensive playbook. 

 

Romo: "Oh my gosh... it's a west coast offense playbook... it's gotta be over a thousand pages long..."

 

Reid: "Hold him down!" Mahomes and Kelce pin Toney while Reid strips off his shirt, climbs a table and splashes Toney.

 

Romo: "Jim... there's kids watching this..."
Nantz: "Andy Reid must weigh over 400lbs!"

 

Josh Allen and his o-line charge into the meeting room.

 

Nantz: "But wait! It's Josh Allen! And the Buffalo Bills offensive line!"
Romo: "Here we go!"

 

Allen and the O-line quickly clear out the Chiefs locker room. Allen helps Toney up.
Allen: "Are you alright?"
Toney: "Yeah... uh... thanks..."
Allen holds up Toney's arm victoriously. The O-line joins in when suddenly Spencer Brown kicks Toney in the gut and delivers a stunner.

 

the sound of breaking glass

[st pete gogolak]

My “Mahones Ball Washing Thread” should NOT have been merged into a Mahones v. Brady thread.  Totally different topics.   Could care less about comparisons between the two.  My thread concerned the MEDIA. Specifically how the talking heads judge QB greatness upon the rings to the exclusion of pretty much everything else and give QB’s credit for championships to the exclusion of pretty much anyone else.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's funny because Manning himself is a good example of what you're referring to. His 2nd Super Bowl win came in arguably the worst individual season of his career. Brady is a good example too. His career was declared over after his final clunker of a season in New England. Instead he migrated to the best roster in the NFL and immediately won another Super Bowl. But for some reason it all gets boiled down to just the QBs.

Go ahead and take a look at the teams that won (or even participated in) super bowls. There are a handful of teams that didn't have elite QBs int he Super Bowl era and even less that weren't getting elite play from otherwise average QBs (Foles, Rypien, Flacco). An NFL Quarterback is the most critical position in sports to success and it's the hardest to fill. How are we going to sit here and act like it's a myth?

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl-super-bowl-starting-qbs

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

He is the best QB in the game today. There is no doubt about that. But if Reid retires as some media speculate and Kelce is also getting near the end of his playing career, I don't know if he will catch Brady. It depends on how well his GM can continue to build the team around him. Right now, he is 5 Championships away from tying Brady. He still has a long way to go before being called the greatest. Hopefully along the way Allen and the Bills can slow him down by winning the Lombardi and bringing it to WNY a few times as well.

 

Narratives swing SO easily.

 

- If he wins on Sunday, the "GOAT" talk will spring up.

- But if he loses, that means he will have as lost as many Super Bowls as he has won and the GOAT talk will be down to it's embers.

 

Just FYI for everyone, Mahomes stats in the Super Bowl is 5 TD's, 4 INT's and 3 Fumbles.

 

At the same age, Brady's stats in the Super Bowl was 6 TD's, 1 INT, 1 Fumble.