The Gabe Davis conversation (Allen with and without Gabe)

[WhoTom]

9 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Maybe he should put on 25 pounds and convert to TE.

 

Or you could let Gabe go and have a true TE do the blocking and occasional pass-catching.

 

I'm not a Gabe hater - I was all about giving him the season and possibly seeing if he'd re-sign on a team-friendly deal, but he never made the jump I was hoping for. Unless he significantly and consistently contributes to the passing game throughout the playoffs, then I wouldn't even make him an offer. Let him test FA and whatever another team offers him, don't match it.

 

 

 

[DapperCam]

1 minute ago, WhoTom said:

 

Or you could let Gabe go and have a true TE do the blocking and occasional pass-catching.

 

I'm not a Gabe hater - I was all about giving him the season and possibly seeing if he'd re-sign on a team-friendly deal, but he never made the jump I was hoping for. Unless he significantly and consistently contributes to the passing game throughout the playoffs, then I wouldn't even make him an offer. Let him test FA and whatever another team offers him, don't match it.

 

 

 

Even if he has a big playoffs, let’s not be fooled. He’s shown who he is with a large sample size. If we re-sign him, we will regret it.

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

If Gabe broke off his route to just run to open space, that’s even worse.

 

I’m almost positive it was an option though. You can actually see Davis reading the leverage before making his turn.

 

And I highly doubt Allen would simply throw it to a random area if he knew where Gabe was going.

Tough to tell from the broadcast angle because he goes out of frame at the breakpoint, but Gabe pushes into the leverage of the DB before pivoting back. If it were a true option route he would have recognized outside leverage immediately and converted it to the bang 8 he actually ran without burying himself in the DB first.

[KDIGGZ]

Bills offense is better without Gabe and Knox. Get these guys out of here and get a legit #2 or 1B option!

[NewEra]

Watching Gabe limping around, I told my buddies “good, now Josh won’t be able to throw the ball to Gabe on any more 3rd downs.  This is going to be addition by subtraction”.  I wasn’t wrong.  
 

great to see Kincaid and Diggs with 7 receptions and Shakir with 6.   Shak is a beast with the ball in his hands and is a legit playmaker 

[Einstein]

Update: Brian Baldinger says this was in fact an option (choice) route by Gabe Davis. Calls it "miscommunication".

When nearly 40% of INT's are when targeting one player who only receives 15% of the targets... there is a problem.
 

@Beck Water
 

 

Edited January 8 by Einstein

[Drew21PA]

Lo and behold yet another one on one opportunity for Gabe and he just seems to go the wrong way and int

 

Then he as another opp - nope but frame gabe just falls over 

 

2 picks inside redzone both targeting Gabe

[babulator]

Can you imagine playing with a future HOF QB that's shattering NFL records and despite being given every opportunity, you just can't seem to get on the same page as him? 🔫 We've seen enough of Gabe, it's time to move on.

[Scott7975]

18 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I’d like to hear from one of our X’s and O’s guys - the first INT was obviously a choice route and Allen and Gabe were on different pages.  I’m thinking Gabe chose correctly (based on coverage).  Anyone?  I know @HoofHearted on a miscue in an earlier game, confirmed Gabe read it correctly though Joe Brady was very diplomatic and took the blame on himself, pointing out that Allen was under duress and had very short time to decide (in that instance)

 

Anyway, the point is - not to interfere with your feelings on Gabe, and I think there are reasons to question whether we should pay him or not.

 

But if Allen is the one who is throwing to the wrong spot based on an option route and the coverage, getting rid of Gabe won’t help.  Allen has to be better and make better decisions.

 

I'm not going to put blame on either because I just don't know.  What I will say is that it was a cover zero.  Some people are saying Josh didn't even look before he threw but that isn't correct.  It was fast but Josh threw the ball to the exact spot Gabe was at the time of release.  Josh was also out of time when he threw it.  Being cover zero, IMO Gabe should have been cutting his route and looking for the ball.  Instead, when Josh threw the ball, Gabe wasn't even looking.  He was finishing a route then turning to look for the ball.  Had he just turned around on a cover zero like I think he should have, it would have been a TD.

 

Just my opinion on it.  I posted a thread with Cover 1's breakdown of the offensive plays.  That play is in there.  Either way, I have been saying for most of the season that Josh and Gabe are not on the same page.  I don't care who is wrong, they just don't vibe with each other chemistry wise.  This doesn't really happen with any other receiver on the team. Time to move on and get a better receiver on the outside.  One that Josh can vibe with.  One that has better skills.

Edited January 9 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

If Gabe broke off his route to just run to open space, that’s even worse.

 

I’m almost positive it was an option though. You can actually see Davis reading the leverage before making his turn.

 

And I highly doubt Allen would simply throw it to a random area if he knew where Gabe was going.

 

Davis was actually breaking outside when Allen threw it.  Davis then spun and turned towards the inside while the ball was in the air.  The ball was at the spot Davis broke to initially.  Josh was out of time at that point.  It wasn't a guess from Allen.  Its where Davis was going when Allen released the ball.  Davis didn't even look for the ball until after he turned, broke back inside, and it was already intercepted.

Edited January 9 by Scott7975

[Best Williams Available]

It doesn’t matter how talented a WR is. If they don’t produce for a QB enough to be trustworthy for that QB they are effectively useless. 
 

Think Marvin Harrison. Talent-wise limited, but hugely impactful for P Manning. 
 

Shakir and Kincaid have grown that connection with Josh this year and their production over Gabe’s makes him expendable, unfortunately.

[JoshAllin]

Gabe was staring at the blitzers the whole time, if he stays in the curl route option its an easy TD as he over powers Apple right there

[McMuffin]

Every time Josh throws to Gabe, I wince a little bit because I’m bracing for something bad to happen whether it’s an int or a drive-killing drop/ miscommunication on a route.

 

41 minutes ago, Best Williams Available said:

It doesn’t matter how talented a WR is. If they don’t produce for a QB enough to be trustworthy for that QB they are effectively useless. 
 

Think Marvin Harrison. Talent-wise limited, but hugely impactful for P Manning. 
 

Shakir and Kincaid have grown that connection with Josh this year and their production over Gabe’s makes him expendable, unfortunately.

I wouldn’t say limited.  Sure he was slightly built but he was an explosive player who ran exceptional routes.  

[YattaOkasan]

19 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree he's an outstanding blocker but if that's his #1 skill as our so-called #2WR, we're in serious trouble. I just can't watch Gabe run routes anymore.  Or adjust to pressure he can see is coming at Josh.  I'm rolling with Diggs, Shakir, Kincaid and Sherfield from here on out. I can live with a little less blocking. 

Yeah blocking as your calling card is majoring in minor things as joe Marino would say. I think we need more separation from WR2. If you can get separation and block we’ll like Robert woods great. But you need to get open and catch primarily. In those two areas I think Gabe is below average. 

Edited January 9 by YattaOkasan

[Thrivefourfive]

But Gabe is a captain! and he allegedly earned it… and it wasn’t a charity decision 🤣

[TBBills Fan]

19 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Are you seriously giving somebody ***** for over posting?!

When they've all been viable topics?

For real?

<fingers twitch toward banhammer......>

[Richard Noggin]

19 minutes ago, Thrivefourfive said:

But Gabe is a captain! and he allegedly earned it… and it wasn’t a charity decision 🤣

 

He admittedly looks like an awesome teammate out there. His guys really do love him. 

[DCofNC]

20 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I’d like to hear from one of our X’s and O’s guys - the first INT was obviously a choice route and Allen and Gabe were on different pages.  I’m thinking Gabe chose correctly (based on coverage).  Anyone?  I know @HoofHearted on a miscue in an earlier game, confirmed Gabe read it correctly though Joe Brady was very diplomatic and took the blame on himself, pointing out that Allen was under duress and had very short time to decide (in that instance)

 

Anyway, the point is - not to interfere with your feelings on Gabe, and I think there are reasons to question whether we should pay him or not.

 

But if Allen is the one who is throwing to the wrong spot based on an option route and the coverage, getting rid of Gabe won’t help.  Allen has to be better and make better decisions.

I’d be with you, BUT Gabe is the target on a disproportionate percentage of the interceptions.  Allen doesn’t have these problems with literally anyone else.   Now he makes some bad throws, balls get tipped or whatever when he’s throwing to other guys, but when he throws to Davis there is a MUCH higher chance it’s going to go wrong.  To me, that says, Davis is not on the same page and he’s the only one, so it’s not JA that’s the issue.  We all know which one is staying, and which one we can all hope signs with the Chiefs.

1 hour ago, Best Williams Available said:

It doesn’t matter how talented a WR is. If they don’t produce for a QB enough to be trustworthy for that QB they are effectively useless. 
 

Think Marvin Harrison. Talent-wise limited, but hugely impactful for P Manning. 
 

Shakir and Kincaid have grown that connection with Josh this year and their production over Gabe’s makes him expendable, unfortunately.

wtf are you taking about with Marvin Harrison?  He was a 1st round pick, and had ELITE skills, not to mention was perfectly in tune with Peyton. 

[HoofHearted]

20 hours ago, Einstein said:

Update: Brian Baldinger says this was in fact an option (choice) route by Gabe Davis. Calls it "miscommunication".

When nearly 40% of INT's are when targeting one player who only receives 15% of the targets... there is a problem.
 

@Beck Water
 

 

If it truly was an option then Gabe ran a poor route, but ultimately Allen's at fault for the INT. He threw the wrong ball based on the leverage.

Edited January 9 by HoofHearted

[Einstein]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

but ultimately Allen's at fault for the INT. He threw the wrong ball.

 

Very well could be. But it’s happening with Gabe at a significantly higher clip than any other WR. Whether that be because Allen assumes Gabe will do the wrong thing so he pattern matches, or something Gabe is doing makes Allen unable to read what choice he will take, there is some sort of miscommunication that is happening with Gabe and Gabe alone. 

[H2o]

On 1/8/2024 at 12:28 AM, Einstein said:

Before Gabe was hurt

 

Allen: 4/8 (50%), 67 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT

 

AFTER Gabe left the game

 

Allen: 26/30 (87%), 360 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT

 

Did you know?

 

Over the past two seasons, a little under 40% of Allen's interceptions occur when targeting Gabe Davis? Yet, Davis is not targeting very much...

 

15.2% of the targets, and 38% of the INT's.

And no, I am not saying that Gabe Davis is the sole reason of blame for our offensive failures. Not at all. But for whatever reason, he and Allen are NOT on the same page, and it doesn't seem to be getting better. 

Where is Gabe's mom and his agent, Weo, at?

[CincyBillsFan]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Davis was actually breaking outside when Allen threw it.  Davis then spun and turned towards the inside while the ball was in the air.  The ball was at the spot Davis broke to initially.  Josh was out of time at that point.  It wasn't a guess from Allen.  Its where Davis was going when Allen released the ball.  Davis didn't even look for the ball until after he turned, broke back inside, and it was already intercepted.

Also Allen threw the ball low to better protect it from the DB BEHIND Davis.

[Strethor]

Gabe is a WR #3 who should only be used as a blocker / possession body. The staff thought highly of him and he wasn't able to develop in an ideal situation. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 1/8/2024 at 12:40 AM, Drew21PA said:

He was to blame for a pick AGAIn tonight

 

any REAL #2 catches a TD on that pass

 

Which one?  The one where Allen threw it directly to the other team?  Or the one where he threw it up to no one in particular?

3 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Also Allen threw the ball low to better protect it from the DB BEHIND Davis.

 

Also the only guy looking at allen at the time of the throw was the DB.  So... don't throw the ball there.  Throw it 15 feet over his head, take the points.  

[Allen2Moulds]

On 1/8/2024 at 1:04 AM, Beck Water said:

 

I’d like to hear from one of our X’s and O’s guys - the first INT was obviously a choice route and Allen and Gabe were on different pages.  I’m thinking Gabe chose correctly (based on coverage).  Anyone?  I know @HoofHearted on a miscue in an earlier game, confirmed Gabe read it correctly though Joe Brady was very diplomatic and took the blame on himself, pointing out that Allen was under duress and had very short time to decide (in that instance)

 

Anyway, the point is - not to interfere with your feelings on Gabe, and I think there are reasons to question whether we should pay him or not.

 

But if Allen is the one who is throwing to the wrong spot based on an option route and the coverage, getting rid of Gabe won’t help.  Allen has to be better and make better decisions.

You could be right, and I can't disagree with this.  However, for whatever reason, as the OP points out, it does seem that almost all of the communication issues are between Josh and Gabe.  I'm sure it's not exclusive with Josh and Gabe, but it's at an alarming rate.  Not seeing that with any of the other receivers. 

Edited January 9 by Allen2Moulds

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Which one?  The one where Allen threw it directly to the other team?  Or the one where he threw it up to no one in particular?

 

Also the only guy looking at allen at the time of the throw was the DB.  So... don't throw the ball there.  Throw it 15 feet over his head, take the points.  

It was an all out blitz with guys closing in on Allen. He didn't have the luxury of confirming that Davis was where HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

On 1/7/2024 at 11:28 PM, Einstein said:

Before Gabe was hurt

 

Allen: 4/8 (50%), 67 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT

 

AFTER Gabe left the game

 

Allen: 26/30 (87%), 360 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT

 

Did you know?

 

Over the past two seasons, a little under 40% of Allen's interceptions occur when targeting Gabe Davis? Yet, Davis is not targeting very much...

 

15.2% of the targets, and 38% of the INT's.

And no, I am not saying that Gabe Davis is the sole reason of blame for our offensive failures. Not at all. But for whatever reason, he and Allen are NOT on the same page, and it doesn't seem to be getting better. 

Singing like Elsa *let him go...let him go... don't want him back anymore...*

 

I have 7 grandkids, don't judge me.

[DieHardBillsFan]

Davis has his moments, but he has just as many when he is not on the same page as Allen and it results in a Turnover. I like him, but he needs to go.

 

Turns out I am writing exactly what the OP said. Excellent points and I completely agree.

Edited January 9 by DieHardBillsFan

[Nephilim17]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:40 PM, Einstein said:

Update: Brian Baldinger says this was in fact an option (choice) route by Gabe Davis. Calls it "miscommunication".

When nearly 40% of INT's are when targeting one player who only receives 15% of the targets... there is a problem.
 

@Beck Water
 

 

On that first INT it's absolutely asinine when Gabe has leverage on the CB going outside to turn back inside where he doesn't have leverage and where there are more bodies. I'm just a fan who plays pick-up ball once or twice every week but I keep going OUT on that route 100 times out of 100.

Am I wrong?

[DCofNC]

3 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

On that first INT it's absolutely asinine when Gabe has leverage on the CB going outside to turn back inside where he doesn't have leverage and where there are more bodies. I'm just a fan who plays pick-up ball once or twice every week but I keep going OUT on that route 100 times out of 100.

Am I wrong?

I think you are.  It was a blitz, the hot route typically turns inside, quicker throw opportunity.  I’m not sure why JA assumed he was going to settle down at the top of the route and that means maybe we are both wrong.

[Billsfan1972]

11 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I think you are.  It was a blitz, the hot route typically turns inside, quicker throw opportunity.  I’m not sure why JA assumed he was going to settle down at the top of the route and that means maybe we are both wrong.

I watch football, never played organized football, but when I saw the play the first thing I thought "where's the Bills receiver, Allen threw it to the spot they were supposed to be?".  Then of course the replay confirmed it was Gabe. 

 

It is a blitz and it is the receivers job to know where to be and be ready for it.  It was a perfect pass where Gabe should have been.  A large physical receiver and a pass where only they can catch it. At worst an incompletion.

 

Aren't these the plays that are practised over & over? 

 

I have a name for gabe "Wrong Page" Davis.🙄

 

  

Edited January 10 by Billsfan1972

[Billsatlastin2018]

On 1/8/2024 at 12:36 AM, UConn James said:

When he went down, I’m a bit chagrined to admit that I kinda cheered.
 

Will have one fabulous game and then the next eight Josh might as well be throwing to Mr. Magoo. No separation, no fight for the ball, running the wrong route / making the wrong break. On Josh’s first INT, Gabe was the target and he was 10 yards away from the ball after cutting inside when Josh was expecting outside / toward sideline. They are absolutely not in sync. Someone else can pay him in the off-season and get him TF out of here.

I’m afraid this is it! You simply cannot get to Week 18 and be out of sync on the route from your QB. Allen 100% expected Davis to break left.The Pass was thrown low and inside… a few steps away!

 

Cletus Davis cuts it inside.

MUST GO!

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I watch football, never played organized football, but when I saw the play the first thing I thought "where's the Bills receiver, Allen threw it to the spot they were supposed to be?".  Then ff course the replay confirmed it was Gabe. 

 

It is a blitz and it is the receivers job to know where to be and be ready for it.  It was a perfect pass where Gabe should have been.  A large physical receiver and a pass where only they can catch it. At worst an incompletion.

 

Aren't these the plays that are practised over & over? 

 

I have a name for gabe "Wrong Page" Davis.🙄

 

  

I think Davis is a “soldier mind”, meaning he can do exactly what he’s told to do, when he should do it.  The second it comes to making his own decision, problem. 
 

I thought he could be more than he is, but we basically have a slower MVS.  I’m sending Beane a copy of Frozen and labeling it from Gabe.

[Chandler#81]

Gabe Who? Our next loss -or the Super Bowl- will be his last as a Bill. Even with his excellent blocking, Shakir has completely replaced him as WR2. Can we upgrade Kahlil in the offseason? Sure. He’s just less replaceable than ‘Big Flame Gabe’.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I watch football, never played organized football, but when I saw the play the first thing I thought "where's the Bills receiver, Allen threw it to the spot they were supposed to be?".  Then of course the replay confirmed it was Gabe. 

 

It is a blitz and it is the receivers job to know where to be and be ready for it.  It was a perfect pass where Gabe should have been.  A large physical receiver and a pass where only they can catch it. At worst an incompletion.

 

Aren't these the plays that are practised over & over? 

 

I have a name for gabe "Wrong Page" Davis.🙄

 

  

 

Yeah we all obviously know.

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeah we all obviously know.

Yeah from the "be all & end all"....🙄

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yeah from the "be all & end all"....🙄

 

How do you know which was Gabe was supposed to run and where Allen was supposed to throw the ball?

 

You don't understand the simple nuances of the game and it shows constantly.

Edited January 10 by Royale with Cheese

[NewEra]

12 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I think you are.  It was a blitz, the hot route typically turns inside, quicker throw opportunity.  I’m not sure why JA assumed he was going to settle down at the top of the route and that means maybe we are both wrong.

I disagree.  Bigger WR had the smaller CB apple on his back.  Just turn and body him out.  If he would’ve done that, it was a perfect pass.  Low and only where the War could get a hand on it

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How do you know which was Gabe was supposed to run and where Allen was supposed to throw the ball?

 

You don't understand the simple nuances of the game and it shows constantly.

Why, because it happens over and over with Gabe.  Allen threw it to a spot where Gabe was going.  Watch the play.  He looks at Davis and throws it.  

 

https://www.miamidolphins.com/video/eli-apple-intercepts-josh-allen-in-the-end-zone

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

30 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I disagree.  Bigger WR had the smaller CB apple on his back.  Just turn and body him out.  If he would’ve done that, it was a perfect pass.  Low and only where the War could get a hand on it

 

That's how it looked to me.  Based on where and when Allen threw the ball, he anticipated Davis would plant and turn around and the ball would have been right there.  Instead Davis planted and then cut to the right.  It's an obvious miscommunication or misunderstanding on a Cover 0 blitz beater.   Unfortunately, it's something that is too frequent between the two.  I'm pretty confident that if Davis simply planted and turned around, that would have been a TD or incomplete pass at worse.

 

Regardless; it's something they need to fix. 

Edited January 10 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine