YOU make the call!

[PromoTheRobot]

This happened in the NH state football championship yesterday  Fortunately it did not end up impacting the outcome. But I'm interested in how everyone here would call this if they were the official.

 

A pass hits a receiver on the hands. Both hands remain on the ball as the player goes to the ground, but the ball jars loose when the receiver hits the ground. The ball pops up and never hits the ground before it's grabbed by a defender.

 

Is it a) a catch or b) an interception?

Edited November 26, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[RiotAct]

was the receiver touched by a defensive player at all before he hit the ground?

 

If not, then I’d say interception.

[Buckets]

I would say fumble recovery.

[That's No Moon]

Interception

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

was the receiver touched by a defensive player at all before he hit the ground?

 

If not, then I’d say interception.

 

CORRECTION: My bad. The receiver WAS touched while attempting the catch hit the ground. No "football move" was made. But the NHIAA rules follow college rules in that if you are down, you are down.

Edited November 26, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[Bob Jones]

2 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

was the receiver touched by a defensive player at all before he hit the ground?

 

If not, then I’d say interception.

Wut? In HS and college when the receiver hits the ground, he's down. So, it's a catch.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Bob Jones said:

Wut? In HS and college when the receiver hits the ground, he's down. So, it's a catch.

 

Okay. But the catch "didn't survive the ground." 

[RiotAct]

7 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Wut? In HS and college when the receiver hits the ground, he's down. So, it's a catch.

I wasn’t sure about the high school rules… I watch even less h.s. football than I do college 😉

[HOUSE]

This play could only happen to the Bills, sooooo

It's a fictitious play

[Motorin']

This is like a Zeno's paradox of the catch rule. Although the catch rule might be different in the HS league then the NFL.

 

To rule it an INT, you have to rely on the rule that a receiver doesn't become a runner until the catch is complete. 

 

So even if they catch the ball with control while going to the ground, even if the knee is down ending the play. Or touched by a defender while on the ground and possessing the ball with control. If the ball pops in the air before the catch is complete, the play isn't over. 

 

Same weird paradox of a receiver catching the ball with control while crossing the plane of the goal line with two feet down and then losing control when hitting the ground. Not a TD even though they controlled the ball in hand and broke the plane. 

 

 

[JaCrispy]

Depends if WR had initially possessed the ball for a legal catch…if so, it’s a fumble…if not it’s an interception 👍

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Without seeing the actual play, it sounds like an interception to me. There doesn't seem to be a time element at all for a completed catch and down by contact with ground. With no element of time and the ball never touching the ground I would rule as an interception. 

[BBFL]

Got to call the NY HQ Joe. Can’t make a decision ourselves anymore. 
 

Edited November 26, 2023 by BBFL

[PromoTheRobot]

7 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

This is like a Zeno's paradox of the catch rule. Although the catch rule might be different in the HS league then the NFL.

 

To rule it an INT, you have to rely on the rule that a receiver doesn't become a runner until the catch is complete. 

 

So even if they catch the ball with control while going to the ground, even if the knee is down ending the play. Or touched by a defender while on the ground and possessing the ball with control. If the ball pops in the air before the catch is complete, the play isn't over. 

 

Same weird paradox of a receiver catching the ball with control while crossing the plane of the goal line with two feet down and then losing control when hitting the ground. Not a TD even though they controlled the ball in hand and broke the plane. 

 

 

 

 

Just now, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Without seeing the actual play, it sounds like an interception to me. There doesn't seem to be a time element at all for a completed catch and down by contact with ground. With no element of time and the ball never touching the ground I would rule as an interception. 

 

I can't post the video of the play just yet. It's embargoed because live rights belong to a streaming company. I will as soon as it posts on YouTube.

 

But I will reveal the call: A CATCH.  But I ask if the ball hit the ground would it still be a catch? You do have to control the ball to the ground for a legal catch, right? So if it hits the ground it's incomplete, why is a catch if the other team grabs the ball before hitting the ground?

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

CORRECTION: My bad. The receiver WAS touched while attempting the catch hit the ground. No "football move" was made. But the NHIAA rules follow college rules in that if you are down, you are down.

 

So the WR caught the ball, went down, the ball came loose after he was technically down?  
 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Just now, JaCrispy said:

Depends if WR had initially possessed the ball for a legal catch…if so, it’s a fumble…if not it’s an interception 👍

 

If there was possession to make it a legal catch it would be nearly impossible for it to be a fumble. The player would almost have to be down by contact with the ground. In high school you don't not have to be down after contact with a defensive player. Any part of the body excluding feet and hands would be down. Again, would have to see the play but more than likely some other part of the body besides just the hands holding the ball is also down. 

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

But I will reveal the call: A CATCH.  But I ask if the ball hit the ground would it still be a catch? You do have to control the ball to the ground for a legal catch, right? So if it hits the ground it's incomplete, why is a catch if the other team grabs the ball before hitting the ground?

 

Who's on first!  

 

 

 

Seriously though, if the ball hits the ground, it's never a catch.  

 

This is confusing ...

 

... why is a catch if the other team grabs the ball before hitting the ground?

 

Was the pass incomplete before the other team's player grabs it?  

If the ball hits the ground, technically it should be incomplete, right?  Once it's incomplete, it's incomplete.  

 

Fun things to discuss while biting our nails awaiting our first playoff game.  LOL  

 

 

[Heavy Kevi]

That an interception.

 

If the ball is loose before he "survives the ground", then it can't be down by contact or a fumble.

 

So it has to be interception or incomplete. But it's not incomplete. Ball never touched the ground.

 

Interception!

[PBF81]

22 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Okay. But the catch "didn't survive the ground." 

 

Then it's incomplete, no?  

 

Why wouldn't it be incomplete?  

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

DON'T yell at me, mister! 🤨

*
😁

[strive_for_five_guy]

I believe I saw this same scenario play out in an NFL game recently too, and the play was deemed a catch, even though it seems like it should be an INT or Fumble Recovery.  Because player was deemed to have made the catch and then down.

[Brand J]

This thread is proof how subjective officiating can be. Everyone is reading the same situation, but the ruling isn’t unanimous. I think rules need to be stripped down, subjectivity should almost never be part of a call.
 

For me, it was a catch because the offensive player is down the minute he contacts the ground. There’s no “survive the ground” rule in HS as far as I know. If there is, then the call should be an INT. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

So the WR caught the ball, went down, the ball came loose after he was technically down?  
 

 

 

He had his hands on the ball until his back hit the ground. The force of landing popped the ball loose.

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Who's on first!  

 

 

 

Seriously though, if the ball hits the ground, it's never a catch.  

 

This is confusing ...

 

... why is a catch if the other team grabs the ball before hitting the ground?

 

Was the pass incomplete before the other team's player grabs it?  

If the ball hits the ground, technically it should be incomplete, right?  Once it's incomplete, it's incomplete.  

 

Fun things to discuss while biting our nails awaiting our first playoff game.  LOL  

 

 

The ball never hit the ground. It popped into the air when the WR lost it.

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Then it's incomplete, no?  

 

Why wouldn't it be incomplete?  

 

 

Because the ball never touched the ground.

[mikemac2001]

Makes me think of this stupid play 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/nfl-explains-why-controversial-interception-was-not-overturned/article_3144b798-00fc-11eb-b691-d383bab887e8.html 

 

sorry didn’t realize pay wall 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mikemac2001

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

He had his hands on the ball until his back hit the ground. The force of landing popped the ball loose.

The ball never hit the ground. It popped into the air when the WR lost it.

Because the ball never touched the ground.

 

Not sure the HS rules, but then that should be a completion end-of-play, right?  

 

As some have said, in college and HS the receiver is down even if no one touches him.  

 

 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

He had his hands on the ball until his back hit the ground. The force of landing popped the ball loose.

The ball never hit the ground. It popped into the air when the WR lost it.

My initial feeling was that it was a completion and he was down as soon as he hit the ground. 
 

But after some more thought, I’m going to go with INT. 

 

If he didn’t establish control of the ball before it popped out when he hit the ground, then it’s a live ball. 
 

Without established control, whether he hits the ground or not is a moot point. 
 

As long as the ball hasn’t touched the ground, then it’s a live ball. 
 

That’s  my final answer, Regis. 

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

This thread is proof how subjective officiating can be. Everyone is reading the same situation, but the ruling isn’t unanimous. I think rules need to be stripped down, subjectivity should almost never be part of a call.
 

For me, it was a catch because the offensive player is down the minute he contacts the ground. There’s no “survive the ground” rule in HS as far as I know. If there is, then the call should be an INT. 

That’s what I thought as well, isn’t “survive the ground” an NFL rule? I assumed surviving the ground was another overcomplicated NFL rule. It wouldn’t surprise me if the NFL’s bizarre rule book found its way to lower levels though. Officials could easily make the mistake of thinking about NFL rules. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

[url=https://postimg.cc/hfjjf0PY][img]https://i.postimg.cc/hfjjf0PY/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-05-50-65-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/sMGgJDW9][img]https://i.postimg.cc/sMGgJDW9/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-05-58-55-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/K3YZ3ZFT][img]https://i.postimg.cc/K3YZ3ZFT/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-06-24-10-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/MM56Gckx][img]https://i.postimg.cc/MM56Gckx/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-06-41-98-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/7GwPD3Wm][img]https://i.postimg.cc/7GwPD3Wm/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-07-00-62-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/VSyLZQBy][img]https://i.postimg.cc/VSyLZQBy/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-07-08-88-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/Jt772QJh][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Jt772QJh/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-07-19-21-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/K49cSgrD][img]https://i.postimg.cc/K49cSgrD/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-07-30-75-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/QBpNR40F][img]https://i.postimg.cc/QBpNR40F/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-07-48-61-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] [url=https://postimg.cc/0bbk82VR][img]https://i.postimg.cc/0bbk82VR/Screenshot-2023-11-26-11-08-01-84-0081d6562bcd0f789cabc0c549d95619.jpg[/img][/url] 

Promo's been coopted by the Solenoid Robots! 😳

[Freddie's Dead]

Imma go catch, you're down the microsecond you touch the ground in HS/college.

[Motorin']

24 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

 

I can't post the video of the play just yet. It's embargoed because live rights belong to a streaming company. I will as soon as it posts on YouTube.

 

But I will reveal the call: A CATCH.  But I ask if the ball hit the ground would it still be a catch? You do have to control the ball to the ground for a legal catch, right? So if it hits the ground it's incomplete, why is a catch if the other team grabs the ball before hitting the ground?

 

I have a feeling that the catch rule in HS football might be different than in the NFL. 

 

With the "old" catch rules that would have been a catch and down. The receiver didn't have to survive the ground. Just control the ball with two feet down for a microsecond and it was a catch. 

 

It really depends on the specific rules for that HS league. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I hope these screen shots clarify the play.

 

 

 

Looks to be very close to defensive PI as well. But I'm sure at live speed it looks pretty bang, bang. But in the still you can see the offensive player is really struggling to even reach back and grab the ball with the defender appearing to be face guarding. Face guarding is perfectly fine as long as you don't make contact with the offensive player. But there appears to maybe be some early contact there. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Click on the first photo, then you can scroll though each to recreate a replay.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[SoonerBillsFan]

52 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

was the receiver touched by a defensive player at all before he hit the ground?

 

If not, then I’d say interception.

Unless the rules say once the receiver hits the ground they are down by contact, it's an interception.  Exception would be if he was touched by a defender 1st.

[Dan Darragh]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

"didn't survive the ground." 

Reminds me of the time I went on a camping trip.

[1ManRaid]

It sounds pretty simple.  If the receiver doesn't "survive the process" of the catch as he hits the ground, it's not a catch.  Can't be a fumble either because they'd be down instantly upon hitting the ground.  Has to be an interception if the ball didn't hit the ground and was never in proper possession of the receiver.

[Freak-O]

As someone with a background in refereeing I can tell you that the most common ruling in a case like this is that the Patriots are anwarded an extra draft pick. 

[PatsFanNH]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This happened in the NH state football championship yesterday  Fortunately it did not end up impacting the outcome. But I'm interested in how everyone here would call this if they were the official.

 

A pass hits a receiver on the hands. Both hands remain on the ball as the player goes to the ground, but the ball jars loose when the receiver hits the ground. The ball pops up and never hits the ground before it's grabbed by a defender.

 

Is it a) a catch or b) an interception?

By NFL rules I would say c) a completed pass and fumble recovered by the defense.

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

This thread is proof how subjective officiating can be. Everyone is reading the same situation, but the ruling isn’t unanimous. I think rules need to be stripped down, subjectivity should almost never be part of a call.
 

For me, it was a catch because the offensive player is down the minute he contacts the ground. There’s no “survive the ground” rule in HS as far as I know. If there is, then the call should be an INT. 

HS refs are beyond bad! Up here they are so old they can’t even keep up with the play. 

[947]

In HS, once player hits the ground, he's down. I'm guessing the ref ruled that he didn't have possession long enough for it to be called a catch. If that's the case, the player wouldn't have been down & the ball is still live.

 

Based on the photos, looks like a catch & tackle before the ball is out. Would love to see video of the play.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by 947

[Warcodered]

If the ball pops up after the WR hits the ground and the ball didn't touch the ground itself then that's interception, if the rule is that the WR must catch the ball and survive the impact with the ground, seems pretty well outlined if that's the case. The gray area would only be if he held on to it on the ground and the defender knocked it loose.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Catch