How To Defend The Eagles QB Sneak

[Zag20]

2 hours ago, jletha said:

Theyve already done this. It did in fact score a TD

 

 

IMO the best way to stop this for goal-line specific situations, is to have Joseph or Ed get a couple yard head start, try to 100% time the snap and run into Kelce has hard as he can. If youre early, its half the distance so not much harm done. But in the process you laid a hit on Kelce and let them know that its coming again the next snap. But if you time it right you will blow the play up.

This is a good plan. Get in his head. 

[947]

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

[PatsFanNH]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Agreed.

 

I have writ this sentiment here in the past and got lambasted for it.  One who historically is wildly variable in results (reflective of his overall game)  at it is Josh Allen, he can either be have and incredible effort as he did versus Dallas on Thanksgiving, just not make it like vs Jax a year ago or a disaster as he did versus Minnesota last year.

Another thing IMO of course, to take into account is the offensive line. I would think a terrible O line be terrible at a QB sneak while an excellent one be excellent at it. 

[WideNine]

35 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

Commanders are the only ones able to stop it, and they got a fumble at the same time.

 

 

 

 

Nice you can even see one WA defender on his knees and elbows before the snap where they normally get their traction and push.

 

Basically not even trying to get lower from a stance just get hit the ground at the snap.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

8 minutes ago, 947 said:

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

It's was suggested by a rugby expert to do something along these lines. Essentially go horizontal against the center and guards and just stack them up. The Chiefs actually lined up this way but they weren't able to execute it. 

 

I half way joked about rug pulling the line and getting a personnel foul, but I actually think those concept have some merit. Whatever you do you need to figure out how to introduce some doubt or some new variable into the Eagles. It could be a combination of several things. Maybe on the first attempt you "accidentally" jump offside and drill Kelsey and Hurts. Then maybe on the 2nd attempt you take a quick back step and rug pull them. Then maybe you incorporate the sideways cut against the center and guard. Whatever you do I think you want to get Philadelphia thinking twice that they can just go low and drive. Get them thinking about making some business decisions. Don't make it easy.    

[Don Otreply]

With a ball peen hammer, just sayin 😁👍

 

GO BILLS!!!

[HoofHearted]

Only way to defend this is to get into a Bear Front or, if we want to stay in our 4 down, condense down to fill both A and B gaps with DL. They need to be in 4 point stances and on the snap drive their shade shoulder into the thigh of the OL in front of them and run their feet as hard as they can. This is the only way to create a stalemate at the LoS. Essentially cut the OL and create a pile of human mass at the LoS to the point where the ball has to bounce.

[DaggersEOD]

5 hours ago, Alpo Chino said:

I don't think they've been stopped with 1 yard to go when using this play so far. Basically undefendable. A HUGE advantage that you're guaranteed a 1st down whenever you face 3rd or 4th and short. But there HAS to be a way.. right? The best way I can think to battle that play would be come up with a whole new different defensive front. You need to get as big and as strong as possible. Leave the normal goal line DLine in. But sub out LB's and put Torrence and Dawkins in. And have them right on the butts of the DT. And when the ball is snapped they just plow into the pile and try and push it back or create a roadblock of sorts. Almost like a reverse tug of war... A push of war? And once you've stalemated the push, you can have guys jumping over the pile, like you see now, and try and drag Hurts down. To stop something innovative like their version of the Qb sneak, you need to be innovative yourself. Could this work? Does anyone have any other ideas?

I like the concept of thinking of something new, but a lot of times, they hurry to the line and don’t allow the D the substitute. 

[DaggersEOD]

1 hour ago, 947 said:

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

If you watch the play Kelsey literally headbutts the ground when he snaps the ball to make sure no one gets lower than him. 

[Low Positive]

It’s a play from the era before players wore helmets and guys used to die. It’s why Teddy Roosevelt almost banned the sport altogether. It’s like we’re watching a 2023 NFL game that suddenly morphs into a 1908 Yale-Harvard game.

[Steve O]

4 hours ago, Virgil said:

One thing I noticed in the Chiefs game, is that the Eagles seem to deploy a tug-o-war trick.  They don't push immediately, but instead let the defense get some momentum and then the Eagles push back on them when their balance is off.  

 

It might be a crazy idea, but I wonder what would happen if you matched their delay.  Just pause for a split second and then go high.  

 

I could be terrible wrong

I was thinking a little variation on this. Just have the middle open up and let let Hurts run through for 4 or 5 yards and hit him hard from the side. Make them think twice about running it again.

The rule change allowing runner to be pushed from behind never should have been made. How the hell does it improve player safety to let a runner have 300+ pound linemen push him from the front and back.

[NoSaint]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

If there is a team that could do it, it's the Bills....their D has been pretty great on short yardage situations over the last few years with multiple stuffs on 4th and 1.

 

Gotta get low...if anything maybe just dive right through and try and take the center/guards legs out so they can't down underneath you and have the backers clean it up.

I hate to say it but there’s an element of hit them hard, hit them clean but make them think twice about protecting themselves the next time they run it 

[Einstein]

5 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Don’t let them get to 3rd/4th and short.

Agreed.
 

Honestly I wouldn't be upset if the Bills just let them get the 1 yard in those short yardage situations.

 

The risk of all those bodies smashing into each other at the rate that Philly does it (numerous times per game), just isn't worth it. 

I'd rather give them the first down and stop them from getting 9 yards on the next first and second down.

[Coffeesforclosers]

It's a rugby inspired play and formation right?

 

So somebody call Christian Wade, and have him spill the beans on how to scrum, ruck, and maul.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

We will probably see something like the OP suggests if the Eagles offense is at the one yard line in a tight playoff game or Super Bowl. Or maybe at the very end of an important regular seaon game. Eventually someone will try it. 
 

but I don’t see defenses going all out to stop it personnel wise in a two score  game in the regular season or the first half of a regular season game .

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, 947 said:

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

In the future, leave out that it was youth league that you had your kids targeting knees in…. 
 

 

[1st&ten]

2 hours ago, 947 said:

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

Yes I really think this push play is not true football---cut the center's legs works for me. In the old days when stuff like this happened it was corrected by a tough response.

[AlfaBill]

8 hours ago, Alpo Chino said:

I don't think they've been stopped with 1 yard to go when using this play so far. Basically undefendable. A HUGE advantage that you're guaranteed a 1st down whenever you face 3rd or 4th and short. But there HAS to be a way.. right? The best way I can think to battle that play would be come up with a whole new different defensive front. You need to get as big and as strong as possible. Leave the normal goal line DLine in. But sub out LB's and put Torrence and Dawkins in. And have them right on the butts of the DT. And when the ball is snapped they just plow into the pile and try and push it back or create a roadblock of sorts. Almost like a reverse tug of war... A push of war? And once you've stalemated the push, you can have guys jumping over the pile, like you see now, and try and drag Hurts down. To stop something innovative like their version of the Qb sneak, you need to be innovative yourself. Could this work? Does anyone have any other ideas?

What is the leagues conversion rate on 3 and 1? Is this stupid play (did you ever have your shite pushed in) that much better?

Edited November 23, 2023 by AlfaBill

[Dr.Sack]

Best way to defend it is subbing in rugby players who have been trained in wrestling. Sean McDermott is uniquely qualified to defend this given his back ground in the dark arts. 

[Since1981]

3 hours ago, Steve O said:

Hurts run through for 4 or 5 yards and hit him hard from the side

I was going to post this too. You’d have to have big stones as HC! But if they are getting 1 yd 100% anyway? Why not?

 

You’d smash Hurts so bad they’d stop it (just after fight ejections:)

[nedboy7]

Giving up a few 3rd&1 situations is most likely not relevant in who wins this game.  Our offense needs to score. 

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I may be mistaken, but I'm almost positive they did sort of an end around with it a few weeks back. Hurts handed it to one of the upbacks standing next to him. Pretty sure it was Philly but could have been another team.

 

I know the Raiders did it a couple weeks ago.  Handed it off to Jacobs.

 

My plan would be to have the defensive linemen get low and stay low. Try to plow low and grab Hurts' leg.  Have LBs right behind them shoving them.  Have DBs behind them shoving them.   DO NOT try to jump over. Probably the worst thing you could do. you have no leverage. Hope for the best.

 

Sure they could run some kind of fake, but as good as they are doing it and them being 9-1 would they really want to in a non conference game? I would think not. Save it for playoffs.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

6 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Agreed.

 

I have writ this sentiment here in the past and got lambasted for it.  One who historically is wildly variable in results (reflective of his overall game)  at it is Josh Allen, he can either be have and incredible effort as he did versus Dallas on Thanksgiving, just not make it like vs Jax a year ago or a disaster as he did versus Minnesota last year.

 

And against Tennessee the year before that.

 

I disagree about Brady did. This a totally different animal than what Tommy the cheater did.  There is no comparison.

[Thurman#1]

It has been stopped.

 

"How the Detroit Lions stopped the Bears' Tush Push, and why it might matter come playoffs"

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2023/11/20/detroit-lions-stopped-chicago-bears-tush-push-play-philadelphia-eagles/71654436007/?gnt-cfr=1

 

The Commanders got Hurts to fumble, also.

 

The problem is that the more you sell out and put in only huge defenders, the easier it is for Hurts to just sprint around the end instead. I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy to use that alternative if teams sold out enough.

 

 

[Utah John]

11 hours ago, Alpo Chino said:

I don't think they've been stopped with 1 yard to go when using this play so far. Basically undefendable. A HUGE advantage that you're guaranteed a 1st down whenever you face 3rd or 4th and short. But there HAS to be a way.. right? The best way I can think to battle that play would be come up with a whole new different defensive front. You need to get as big and as strong as possible. Leave the normal goal line DLine in. But sub out LB's and put Torrence and Dawkins in. And have them right on the butts of the DT. And when the ball is snapped they just plow into the pile and try and push it back or create a roadblock of sorts. Almost like a reverse tug of war... A push of war? And once you've stalemated the push, you can have guys jumping over the pile, like you see now, and try and drag Hurts down. To stop something innovative like their version of the Qb sneak, you need to be innovative yourself. Could this work? Does anyone have any other ideas?

I like the creativity, but if the Eagles see their opponent subbing offensive linemen in for LBs, they can just shift out of the push formation into a regular formation and run a play.  The defense will not have any LBs on the field, and will end up giving up a TD instead of a first down.

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, nedboy7 said:

Giving up a few 3rd&1 situations is most likely not relevant in who wins this game.  Our offense needs to score. 

 

 

In key situations it really could make the difference.

 

But yeah, you're right. We need to score, and not a little bit.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, 947 said:

I coached against a youth team who used the tush push as one of their primary plays, they'd get 10+ yards sometimes. Aiding the runner was illegal, but the refs refused to call it all year. After they got us with it a few times, I figured out the solution- cut the Center. I had one of my DTs immediately dive into the Center's legs on the snap, the QB & most of the OL would fall over him into a pile. After 2 attempts of no gain and their Center limping back to the huddle, they gave up on it.

 

I'm sure Kelce doesn't want 300lb guys falling into his knees, so even if it doesn't completely stop them, at worst it'd be a deterrent.

 

 

I don't think you can get under Kelce on that play. He's going to be about five inches above the ground, lower if you try to get under him. You can get as low, but I doubt you get under.

 

A lot of the reason Philly's so good at this is that Kelce is really good at what needs to get done.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, AlfaBill said:

What is the leagues conversion rate on 3 and 1? Is this stupid play (did you ever have your shite pushed in) that much better?

 

 

Around 65%.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-fourth-down-conversion-chart-rate-by-distance/vofkeub6xwms6imajxqkfipp

 

90% is a lot higher.

[MJS]

Stop them on earlier downs. 1 yard has never been difficult for teams to convert on anyways.

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

And against Tennessee the year before that.

 

I disagree about Brady did. This a totally different animal than what Tommy the cheater did.  There is no comparison.

Ok, but Brady was basically unstoppable on the QB sneak as well, so there is something to compare there. The reason Brady was so good was because of expert execution by him and the oline. They just were so dialed in and knew how to do it so well.

 

That is how it is for Philly too. Other teams can't replicate what they do.

[John from Riverside]

You defend it by not allowing them to get in for third and short

[Gunsgoodtime]

15 hours ago, Alpo Chino said:

Give them the old "swistum"

[BuffaloBill]

 

Shows every Eagles “tush push” this season.

 

They really have perfected the play. Hurts makes it work as Minshew was not as effective. 

[Mr. WEO]

Yeah, just have Dawkins leap over the pile…

[frostbitmic]

Keep them in 3rd and 4th and long ... But by doing that they'd have us right where they want us.

 

On the goal line you need to push the Center and both Guards backwards at the snap.

Edited November 23, 2023 by frostbitmic

[Playoffs?]

What if our DLinemen immediately pull their OLine down.. no resistance at all… then our linebackers jump the pile and have a clean shot at the QB?  Would have to happen very, very quickly… but just maybe….

[Jerome007]

It' a thing of beauty. When they talked of banning it, I was WHAT??

 

That OLine is something else. Even at the goaline, all of the linemen are in the endzone!

 

Joseph will have some a fun challenge if it happens.

 

If the Bills have time, why not put 7 DL for that play? Just for giggles. They probably won't have time but it'd be great to see.

[frostbitmic]

The LBs could do some tush push of their own 😉

[plenzmd1]

21 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

If they want to pull that on the 1 yard line it would be worth of few personal fouls. Just sayin. 

agree with this 100%...there are some dumb rules in the NFL and this one is top of list for me. I can commit 15 personal fouls in a row, and only lose 1/4 inch. Would absolutely make them pay with a crushing hit before the snap when it's goal to go.