How Good is Josh Allen Really?

[Billl]

7 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Like I said:  you come to this board looking for fans HERE to praise Mahomes & the Chiefs, and be in "woe is us because we'll never be as good" mode.  You're going to be disappointed in most of what I post here as a result.

 

And yeah - that entire 2nd paragraph - except for MVP, which JA is always in the running for - is team stuff. It's a team game.  A lot of guys play.  It's not golf, or tennis.

 

I’m not disappointed in anything.  I’ve said in this thread that he may well win an MVP and a Super Bowl and will likely be in the HOF.  You’re the one trying to say that Allen is the best while hand waiving away MVPs, Super Bowls, postseason records, regular season records, and stats that all say otherwise.  The thread title isn’t “Who is your favorite player?”  It’s “How good is Josh Allen?”  The answer to that is he’s an excellent QB.  He’s undeniably in the top 5.  He’s arguably the second best.  He’s not the best, though.  

[bobobonators]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:15 PM, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

Imagine if you held yourself to same standard of excellence you hold Josh to. 

[Success]

Just now, Billl said:

I’m not disappointed in anything.  I’ve said in this thread that he may well win an MVP and a Super Bowl and will likely be in the HOF.  You’re the one trying to say that Allen is the best while hand waiving away MVPs, Super Bowls, postseason records, regular season records, and stats that all say otherwise.  The thread title isn’t “Who is your favorite player?”  It’s “How good is Josh Allen?”  The answer to that is he’s an excellent QB.  He’s undeniably in the top 5.  He’s arguably the second best.  He’s not the best, though.  

 

I already said that right now, I have Mahomes ahead of him.

 

I think I have it closer than most, but objectively, Mahomes is #1 right now.

 

You're the one who was trying to compare Allen to Cam - which many opposing fans have done. And it's not an appropriate comparison. They're nothing alike.

 

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

He had 10 incompletions the entire game-you’re saying he had 7 of them in that 4th quarter? Provide a link to the stats you have for that 4th quarter 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401326633

 

He threw the following incompletions:

12:49

12:44

5:01

3:32

2:39

1:02

0:22

[SoMAn]

I hear he’s big in Japan 

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Are we supposed to believe you think Jimmy Garoppolo is a better QB than Allen because winning%

 

Well, of course!!!   Garoppolo took the 49ers to the Super Bowl in 2019.  They lost but at least he got them there, which is more than Allen has done!

 

//sarcasm off

[Billl]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I already said that right now, I have Mahomes ahead of him.

 

I think I have it closer than most, but objectively, Mahomes is #1 right now.

 

You're the one who was trying to compare Allen to Cam - which many opposing fans have done. And it's not an appropriate comparison. They're nothing alike.

 

First 5 seasons:

Cam 18,263 yards passing - Josh 18,397

Cam 117 TDs, 64 INTs - Josh 138 TDs, 60 INTs

Cam 18,263 rushing yards - Josh 18,379 rushing yards

Cam 43 rushing TDs - Josh 39 rushing TDs

Cam 3-3 postseason record - Josh 4-4 postseason record

 

They have been incredibly similar in their first 5 seasons.  The difference is that Cam collapsed after his 5th season.  He was on a HOF trajectory until injuries caught up with him.  Comparing Josh’s first 5 seasons to Cam’s first 5 seasons isn’t an insult to Josh.  Cam was elite, and he’s got the hardware to prove it.

[Success]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

First 5 seasons:

Cam 18,263 yards passing - Josh 18,397

Cam 117 TDs, 64 INTs - Josh 138 TDs, 60 INTs

Cam 18,263 rushing yards - Josh 18,379 rushing yards

Cam 43 rushing TDs - Josh 39 rushing TDs

Cam 3-3 postseason record - Josh 4-4 postseason record

 

They have been incredibly similar in their first 5 seasons.  The difference is that Cam collapsed after his 5th season.  He was on a HOF trajectory until injuries caught up with him.  Comparing Josh’s first 5 seasons to Cam’s first 5 seasons isn’t an insult to Josh.  Cam was elite, and he’s got the hardware to prove it.

 

They're only similar if you use the cumulative totals for all 5 years.  Not if you compare years 3-5 for both.

 

They're not comparable QB's. The reason people make the comparison is because they are both physical runners.

 

 

[Aimee75]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

I recall.  He didn’t because Mahomes went 2/2 for 44 yards in 10 seconds to put his team in range to tie the game with a FG and then went 6/6 for 61 yards and a TD in overtime.  I realize that doesn’t fall into your definition of “when it counts” because, in a thread about how good Josh is, the only answer you’ll accept is “OMG he’s the best of all time”.  It doesn’t matter that other QBs have won MVPs, Super Bowls, have better records, better stats, etc.  None of that matters to you.  

 

Josh is 4-4 in the postseason including a 27-10 loss last year, but postseason records don’t matter.  Josh has never won a Super Bowl, but championships don’t matter.  Josh has never taken the Bills to the #1 seed in the conference, but regular season wins don’t matter.  Josh has never won an MVP, but MVPs don’t matter.  The only thing that matters is the logo on the helmet and as long as there’s a buffalo on his helmet, then by God Josh is the GOAT.

You’re right.  He was 9/16 for 107 yards.  I said 8/15 for 107 originally.

Why are you arguing with Bills fans on a Bills board? This is strange. Good for Mahomes, but Josh's story is still being written and we won't really know his full story until he has retired.

 

Obviously he has the goods to do a lot of great things, but it IS a team sport, and god knows he doesn't have Reid as a head coach. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

So if they don't get to the Superbowl or win it, then who is to blame?

 

Yes I think Josh Allen is the best player in the NFL,and yes held back by coaching.

 

They better win multiple with him as that should be the floor.

 

 

Right but even if they win 2 in 15 years of josh Allen, that’s an average of 1 every 7.5 years.  On a year to year basis winning the Super Bowl is very difficult and takes a ton of luck but it starts to normalize the longer your team is competitive.  The odds of the far and away best team winning the Super Bowl are still quite low each individual year 

 

[JerseyBills]

Top 3 or better QB of his generation good

Edited October 22, 2023 by JerseyBills

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

I’m not disappointed in anything.  I’ve said in this thread that he may well win an MVP and a Super Bowl and will likely be in the HOF.  You’re the one trying to say that Allen is the best while hand waiving away MVPs, Super Bowls, postseason records, regular season records, and stats that all say otherwise.  The thread title isn’t “Who is your favorite player?”  It’s “How good is Josh Allen?”  The answer to that is he’s an excellent QB.  He’s undeniably in the top 5.  He’s arguably the second best.  He’s not the best, though.  

Comparing single players on two different teams is so difficult in football it’s just such a team sport.  I’d give the nod to mahomes too just because of accolades/hardware but in an alternate timeline where josh Allen is playing behind that kc oline with Travis kelce and Andy Reid calling plays for years, he’d be far and away the best qb statistically…I don’t think anyone would even be close.   

[VW82]

Accordingto Joe B, Josh is a solid B so far this year.

 

That's not a B compared to what Josh is capable of, just a B in general. We all know he's capable of much more. Hoperfully, the Josh we know shows up soon.

Edited October 22, 2023 by VW82

[Thrivefourfive]

Obviously a serious take on this thread is insane. We know. But even still:

 

To the point. I believe every single opposing coach is very concerned with Josh Allen. I believe they talk all week on defense about the guy. By the time Sunday rolls around, every defender is semi obsessed with JA17.

 

I believe there’s not a player in the league that wouldn’t want Josh Allen as his quarterback and teammate. Say to Patrick Mahomes.. You can’t be QB.. would you want JA for your quarterback? He’d say yes. 
 

I believe that every fan in every stadium of every Bills Road game is sh!++!NG their pantses because their team has to play against JA17 that day. 
 

He’s done just too much damage around the league. He’s beat everybody, he’s won blowout road games on a Thursday Night Opener in front of the defending Super Bowl champions fans. He continually rifles the Patriots and their Greatest of All Time HCBB into oblivion. 
 

He beat Patrick Mahomes in Arrowhead in the playoffs.. because he out shot the very best in the league. (And then Leslie Frazier gave back the win.) 

 

Josh Allen is the guy you want. I’ll roll with JA17 until the end, when he can’t do him anymore. JA17 is him. 

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

It's basically a dead heat.

 

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

To say either has is head and shoulder better is foolish. 

 

Burrow has much better weapons and the best we can say about the stats is that it's a "dead heat." So we agree that Allen has been much better, yes? Either that or you somehow have to argue that Burrow's weapons and Allen's weapons are equivalent, which, good luck on that.

[Thrivefourfive]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

Burrow has much better weapons and the best we can say about the stats is that it's a "dead heat." So we agree that Allen has been much better, yes? Either that or you somehow have to argue that Burrow's weapons and Allen's weapons are equivalent, which, good luck on that.

Take the line into account. Coaching as well. I’m not stating my Allen is better than Burrow opinion here, just saying that taking into account weapons isn’t the whole ball game. 

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

Mahomes had more passing yards, more rushing yards, completed a higher percentage of his passes, had the same number of total TDs, and didn’t fumble.

 

Mahomes threw a 10 yard crossing route that turned into a 50 yard TD from the best WR in the NFL. Allen gifted a marginal NFL receiver a 4 TD performance that to this day makes Bills fans confused about how mediocre he is.

 

It blows my mind that people still ignore the talent around the QB in these discussions. It wasn't that long ago that people were declaring Brady's career over because he spent a year throwing to marginal NFL talents, until he joined the best roster in the NFL and won another Super Bowl. Who did he win that one against again? It must have been an awful QB given that he had a 52.3 passer rating and only put up 9 points. If after all we are assuming that the final stat line is all that matters.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes threw a 10 yard crossing route that turned into a 50 yard TD from the best WR in the NFL. Allen gifted a marginal NFL receiver a 4 TD performance that to this day makes Bills fans confused about how mediocre he is.

 

It blows my mind that people still ignore the talent around the QB in these discussions. It wasn't that long ago that people were declaring Brady's career over because he spent a year throwing to marginal NFL talents, until he joined the best roster in the NFL and won another Super Bowl. Who did he win that one against again? It must have been an awful QB given that he had a 52.3 passer rating and only put up 9 points. If after all we are assuming that the final stat line is all that matters.

 

To be fair, Josh has also made quite a living off that  Chiefs performance and the game before.

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

To be fair, Josh has also made quite a living off that Chiefs performance and the game before.

 

Not at all. The Chiefs game is certainly his most famous performance, but he is regularly putting up top QB stats year after year despite having a worse supporting cast than his peers. Davis has quite literally made his reputation off that one game. I believe when he inevitably joins a new team next year everyone will see just how mediocre he is. What other offense does he really fit into?

[Teddy KGB]

[transplantbillsfan]

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-20-insane-josh-allen-stats/

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

First 5 seasons:

Cam 18,263 yards passing - Josh 18,397

Cam 117 TDs, 64 INTs - Josh 138 TDs, 60 INTs

Cam 18,263 rushing yards - Josh 18,379 rushing yards

Cam 43 rushing TDs - Josh 39 rushing TDs

Cam 3-3 postseason record - Josh 4-4 postseason record

 

They have been incredibly similar in their first 5 seasons.  The difference is that Cam collapsed after his 5th season.  He was on a HOF trajectory until injuries caught up with him.  Comparing Josh’s first 5 seasons to Cam’s first 5 seasons isn’t an insult to Josh.  Cam was elite, and he’s got the hardware to prove it.

That's a lot of rushing yards in their first five seasons.  You're conveniently leaving out the leap Allen made from year two to three.  For instance,

 

Cam threw for 30 plus touchdowns once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Cam only threw above 60% once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Newton threw for over 4,000 yards once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Newton had a passer rating over 90 once his first five years.  Josh did if three times (20-22).

Newton's total TD's exceeded 40 once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

 

I'm noticing a theme here.

[Nelius]

I saw Cam Newton on some podcast recently and didn't even know it was him, thought it was some percussion player for Prince. Dude is so small now, and he still acts like the league owes him something. Allen has surpassed the comparison on all levels.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's a lot of rushing yards in their first five seasons.  You're conveniently leaving out the leap Allen made from year two to three.  For instance,

 

Cam threw for 30 plus touchdowns once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Cam only threw above 60% once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Newton threw for over 4,000 yards once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

Newton had a passer rating over 90 once his first five years.  Josh did if three times (20-22).

Newton's total TD's exceeded 40 once his first five years.  Josh did it three times (20-22).

 

I'm noticing a theme here.

Cam really only had one great season and even his great season there wasn’t really a mahomes level threat for mvp competition. 

 

the revisionist history on cam has been a little strong lol people are acting like he had those 2015 numbers every year until getting injured and falling off 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Billsfan1972]

16 hours ago, Billl said:

I recall.  He didn’t because Mahomes went 2/2 for 44 yards in 10 seconds to put his team in range to tie the game with a FG and then went 6/6 for 61 yards and a TD in overtime.  I realize that doesn’t fall into your definition of “when it counts” because, in a thread about how good Josh is, the only answer you’ll accept is “OMG he’s the best of all time”.  It doesn’t matter that other QBs have won MVPs, Super Bowls, have better records, better stats, etc.  None of that matters to you.  

 

Josh is 4-4 in the postseason including a 27-10 loss last year, but postseason records don’t matter.  Josh has never won a Super Bowl, but championships don’t matter.  Josh has never taken the Bills to the #1 seed in the conference, but regular season wins don’t matter.  Josh has never won an MVP, but MVPs don’t matter.  The only thing that matters is the logo on the helmet and as long as there’s a buffalo on his helmet, then by God Josh is the GOAT.

You’re right.  He was 9/16 for 107 yards.  I said 8/15 for 107 originally.

Again try 10-16, but add up to the yards again 134 not 107, and of course a few ridiculous rushes, including one on 4th and 4..

Edited October 22, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[EffKCChiefs]

He’s on a HOF trajectory. A SB win or two would help. 

[Mister Defense]

Probably the best quarterback to ever play the game, just needs a new offensive coordinator to create a dynamic, creative offense.  Looks like that we may need to wait until next year for that..

[without a drought]

16 hours ago, Billl said:

Allen in the 4th quarter:  8/15 107 yards

Mahomes in 4th and overtime:  11/15 186 yards

Allen was awful in OT that day.

[Mikie2times]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

Burrow has much better weapons and the best we can say about the stats is that it's a "dead heat." So we agree that Allen has been much better, yes? Either that or you somehow have to argue that Burrow's weapons and Allen's weapons are equivalent, which, good luck on that.

I never said this entire conversation was about stat lines. It's part of it.

 

Burrow has enjoyed more direct and postseason success which is part of it as well. (Time for somebody to come in and argue Burrow hasn't actually played that well in the postseason statistically while propping up Josh's 2021 performance). I have already heard this song and the 8 other songs like it. I'm actually pretty happy with what Josh has done this year. I don't want to spend time rehashing this conversation. 

[Thrivefourfive]

Time to see how mediocre JA17 is today 😮

[Milanos Milano]

He’s awesome 

[14774]

Not very, lately......

[gobills404]

Not very good

[JoshAllin]

This is what everyone wanted, Josh under center with a solid run game...

[Chicken Boo]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:04 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

Right, which is still less than his peers.

 

HALF those turnovers came in week 1.

 

 

 

4 turnovers in the last 3 games. 

 

I would normally say, "You've got to clean that up," but that's just Josh.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

🤔 

Add outplayed by Mac Jones to the resume 

[damj]

Coaching has gotten so into his head to never make a mistake and it's taken away what makes him great,  operating off schedule, running, etc ... 

[90sBills]

Was not good enough today. 

[KeLLy1278]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:20 PM, Big Turk said:

 

This.  

 

1st ballot HOF QB. End of discussion.

 

/Thread

LMAO!  What?  Are you his father? 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

🤔

Add outplayed by Mac Jones to the resume 

One team was playin against a Swiss cheese defense with 0 pass rush lol josh would’ve won that game 50-0 if they swapped teams