Talk about McD and Allen are always linked Any QB ever become a transcended star on another team?

[teef]

all of these threads are a generic, "why i hate our coach, and why i'm going to be upset if you don't hate him too". 

 

am i missing anything?

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

Both.  We made the playoffs with McD before Josh was here.  Josh and Daboll elevated the Bills to the next level.  From all of that, the team learned how to win, which is a mindset that is undervalued.  

 

If Josh never came here, I think we would still be a 9-10 win team that made the wildcard more seasons than not. 

From a McD fan.  I too think they'd be around 500, like they were much of the 19 year drought.  

 

Allen makes them a Superbowl team, however can McD get them there (or not get in their way).  I hope he does.

[GoBills808]

33 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Mc Daniel?  Funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Glad I could help! You can go back to your comic books now

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Glad I could help! You can go back to your comic books now

I thought you were talking about Josh McDaniels.  That would be hilarious if you think he’s better than McD.  But I think you refer to Mike McDaniel, who one could make an argument for.  Certainly has done a lot with that offense, but we’ll see how the rest of this season goes.

Edited October 19, 2023 by oldmanfan

[loyal2dagame]

9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Rich Gannon...was mostly bad in Minnesota, nothing special in Washington or KC, then went to the Raiders and became 2002 MVP, 4x Pro-Bowler and 2x All-Pro.  Honestly very similar late career transcendence similar to Geno Smith. Smith hasn't reached that level yet and likely won't due to the number of other great QBs in the league right now, but he played very well last year.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GannRi00.htm

 

Brett Favre was mostly a bust with Atlanta and went to Green Bay,won Super Bowl(s) and became a HOF'er and 2x MVP, 11x Pro-Bowler and 3x All-Pro.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FavrBr00.htm

To be honest,  Favre got a ring because the Packers defense and special teams won a super bowl.

 

Steve Young and Kurt Warner are the correct answers. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by loyal2dagame

[TH3]

12 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

Allen held back? You literally have no idea what you are talking about. None.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 hours ago, Virgil said:

Both.  We made the playoffs with McD before Josh was here.  Josh and Daboll elevated the Bills to the next level.  From all of that, the team learned how to win, which is a mindset that is undervalued.  

 

If Josh never came here, I think we would still be a 9-10 win team that made the wildcard more seasons than not. 

With who at QB? Darnold or Rosen?  Don't kid yourself.  McD and Beane would both be out of a job if the Browns or Jets took Allen.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

19 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

I can think of about 7 examples off the top of my head right now. How long have you been watching football for ?

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

With who at QB? Darnold or Rosen?  Don't kid yourself.  McD and Beane would both be out of a job if the Browns or Jets took Allen.  

 

By now, possibly. But I think they could have made the playoffs a couple of times with Darnold or Mayfield who, depending on who you believe, were the "other" guy they were willing to take (everyone seems to agree they liked one other guy as well as Allen but it is split on which of those 2 it was). Especially given the AFCE hasn't been great in recent years. 2017 and 2019 they made the playoffs without an elite Quarterback, because Josh's play in 2019 was not yet elite level (20 passing touchdowns, sub 60% completion, mid 80s passer rating). I don't at all think it is beyond the realm of possibility to think they'd have found a way to do that once more from 2020-2022.

 

Whether they'd still be here now... 5 years later with a total record of 6 years; 3 playoff appearances; 0 wins.... maybe not. Possibly but who knows. 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I can think of about 7 examples off the top of my head right now. How long have you been watching football for ?

I was talking near the top first round picks.  Some like Young after 2 years went to SF and languished a long time behind Montana before they got their chance.  Others had glimpses but not much more imo.  Manning doesn't count as he was a star.  I was looking at duds, who then flourished elsewhere.

 

9 hours ago, TH3 said:

Allen held back? You literally have no idea what you are talking about. None.

Again a McD truther.  He had Peterman start the 2018 year, so obviously thought more of Peterman then Allen at that point.  

 

Just because you don't agree with me, don't have to say that.  I saw many things he should have done early to accelerate Allen's development.  Thought he could have done things differently.

 

Regardless we're here now. 

[Dan Darragh]

Art Schlichter.  He finally found himself when he made the All-Penitentiary team at Chillicothe Correctional.  

[BobbyC81]

21 hours ago, mrags said:

Steve Young

Brett Farve

Geno Smith

Drew Brees was pretty good for like 2 year in SD but he was nothing like he became with the Saints. 

And the Dolphins passed on Brees because they didn’t like his physical.  😂🤪😂🤪😂🤪😂

17 hours ago, teef said:

all of these threads are a generic, "why i hate our coach, and why i'm going to be upset if you don't hate him too". 

 

am i missing anything?

This board may have been overrun by middle schoolers.

Edited October 20, 2023 by BobbyC81
Bad multi post formatting.

[BananaB]

21 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think McDermott is vastly underrated around these parts and this whole talk of firing him because he can’t outduel likely the best qb of all time in the playoffs is an eerily similar setup to the bears firing lovie smith and promptly becoming an absolute dumpster fire.  The guy is getting a ton out of all his defensive players to the point where virtually anyone can step in and play pretty well.
 

We were frequently very bad during the drought and helped out by the fact that two other teams in our division were even worse 

 

this feels very ‘grass is greener to me’…look at the dolphins with their offensive mastermind head coach.  When they face a playoff caliber opponent their offense struggles and their defense gets smoked and barring a miracle they lose.  Dolphins are like 2-7 vs playoff teams in his tenure and those two wins they just barely squeaked by injury ravaged bills and ravens teams 

He should get alot out of our D, they spend the first two years building it. Then after we drafted Allen and acquired Diggs most of our picks and and money in free agency maintaining it. The fact we still struggle to shut down quality QBs in big games is a problem.  
 

We hit a peak two years ago and have started a decline. The O has been neglected while the D has been giving just about every resource they need to succeed. Look at the problem the O had last year with WRs and they got a rookie TE plus Hardy and Sherfield to help. Lmao. Now they are almost back in the same situation. On oline they doubled down on Brown (like they did Gabe at WR) added a rookie and a guy that was in and out of Dallas lineup for a few years. When Allen gets pressured he goes back to forcing everything to Diggs because it’s the only player he trusts.  
 

We won’t make it to SB this year, at this point it’s a pipe dream. Next year I bet the majority of our resources go to help our aging D and we are back in the same situation. Should be building around Allen, when the game is on the line there is no other player or unit I want on the field. Look at the last two games, D got steam rolled late against Jags and  Tyrod Taylor had us at the edge of our seats before we caught a break with the refs. 

21 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think McDermott is vastly underrated around these parts and this whole talk of firing him because he can’t outduel likely the best qb of all time in the playoffs is an eerily similar setup to the bears firing lovie smith and promptly becoming an absolute dumpster fire.  The guy is getting a ton out of all his defensive players to the point where virtually anyone can step in and play pretty well.
 

We were frequently very bad during the drought and helped out by the fact that two other teams in our division were even worse 

 

this feels very ‘grass is greener to me’…look at the dolphins with their offensive mastermind head coach.  When they face a playoff caliber opponent their offense struggles and their defense gets smoked and barring a miracle they lose.  Dolphins are like 2-7 vs playoff teams in his tenure and those two wins they just barely squeaked by injury ravaged bills and ravens teams 

He should get alot out of our D, they spend the first two years building it. Then after we drafted Allen and acquired Diggs most of our picks and and money in free agency maintaining it. The fact we still struggle to shut down quality QBs in big games is a problem.  
 

We hit a peak two years ago and have started a decline. The O has been neglected while the D has been giving just about every resource they need to succeed. Look at the problem the O had last year with WRs and they got a rookie TE plus Hardy and Sherfield to help. Lmao. Now they are almost back in the same situation. On oline they doubled down on Brown (like they did Gabe at WR) added a rookie and a guy that was in and out of Dallas lineup for a few years. When Allen gets pressured he goes back to forcing everything to Diggs because it’s the only player he trusts.  
 

We won’t make it to SB this year, at this point it’s a pipe dream. Next year I bet the majority of our resources go to help our aging D and we are back in the same situation. Should be building around Allen, when the game is on the line there is no other player or unit I want on the field. Look at the last two games, D got steam rolled late against Jags and  Tyrod Taylor had us at the edge of our seats before we caught a break with the refs. 

[BillsUberAlles]

13 hours ago, loyal2dagame said:

To be honest,  Favre got a ring because the Packers defense and special teams won a super bowl.

 

Steve Young and Kurt Warner are the correct answers. 

 

There are no single correct answers...Favre and Gannon are equally correct. 

 

Was Favre also 2x MVP and 3x All Pro due to special teams and defense?

 

No. Now go somewhere else and get off your high horse 

Edited October 20, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[eball]

What kind of crazy, nonsensical run-on topic heading is this?

 

Do we mean “transcendent?”

 

Josh Allen needed the right environment that allowed him to hone his skills and get reps. The Daboll relationship was perfect for that, and McDermott allowed Josh to learn on the job. They’ve helped each other, but I believe both would be successful without the other. 
 

 

[PatsFanNH]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

The best example for a QB who became a star on a different team that drafted him would be Steve Young. 
 

Drafted by the Bucs and traded to the 49ers and became a HOF QB. Ibdont remember if he was a top pick for the Bucs though. 

[nedboy7]

Make no mistake. Some of you actually choose to be miserable.  Every day someone posts about 13 seconds. Talk about PTSD.  Enjoy having a good team without mind*****ing it. 

[McBean]

I say let’s trade Josh to San Fran and see if he’ll have success.

 

 

[loyal2dagame]

1 hour ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

There are no single correct answers...Favre and Gannon are equally correct. 

 

Was Favre also 2x MVP and 3x All Pro due to special teams and defense?

 

No. Now go somewhere else and get off your high horse 

 

take it down a notch buckaroo

I never said Favre wasn't a great player, and I didn't reference his personal accolades. I did specifically mention the super bowl that Desmond Howard was MVP of. 

oh, and I'm too short to get on a high horse.

[Big Turk]

14 hours ago, loyal2dagame said:

To be honest,  Favre got a ring because the Packers defense and special teams won a super bowl.

 

Steve Young and Kurt Warner are the correct answers. 

 

Must have also won 2 MVP's and 3 all-pro nominations because of it also.  Yeah...he sucked, you are right.

 

Gannon just got the MVP because voters felt sorry for him.  He sucked too apparently.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Big Turk

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, PatsFanNH said:

The best example for a QB who became a star on a different team that drafted him would be Steve Young. 
 

Drafted by the Bucs and traded to the 49ers and became a HOF QB. Ibdont remember if he was a top pick for the Bucs though. 

Young was a top pick and TB gave up after 2 years, bit then Young also didn't play much behind Montana.  He is a very interesting case.

 

I was referr8ng to those who were considered busts and then had success.  Alex Smith is a good example, but even end the end he was just above average when better coached.

 

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, McBean said:

I say let’s trade Josh to San Fran and see if he’ll have success.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

Lol, does ANYONE think McDermott is more responsible than Allen?!? If so, please identify yourself because I will not respect your football opinions moving forward. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Kirby Jackson

[Bray Wyatt]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, does ANYONE think McDermott is more responsible than Allen?!? If so, please identify yourself because I will not respect your football opinions moving forward. 

 

Like i said, this thread is a strawman

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Like i said, this thread is a strawman

The OP does these to draw attention to himself.

[Captain Hindsight]

Jake Plummer had some good years in Denver after being in AZ

[PatsFanNH]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Young was a top pick and TB gave up after 2 years, bit then Young also didn't play much behind Montana.  He is a very interesting case.

 

I was referr8ng to those who were considered busts and then had success.  Alex Smith is a good example, but even end the end he was just above average when better coached.

 

Hmm how about Jim Plunkett? Drafted in the first round by NE (God we were dysfunctional for like 30 years lol) and ended up winning a SB with the Raiders later on in his career. I think most consider him a fringe HOFer type talent.  

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Young was a top pick and TB gave up after 2 years, bit then Young also didn't play much behind Montana.  He is a very interesting case.

 

I was referr8ng to those who were considered busts and then had success.  Alex Smith is a good example, but even end the end he was just above average when better coached.

 

 

Rich Gannon...he accomplished far more than Alex Smith did.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Big Turk

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Young was a top pick and TB gave up after 2 years, bit then Young also didn't play much behind Montana.  He is a very interesting case.

 

I was referr8ng to those who were considered busts and then had success.  Alex Smith is a good example, but even end the end he was just above average when better coached.

 

 

Young was considered a bust. Now okay, he then served as a backup for 4 years before he became a starter and a top end starter at that. But he meets your criteria. 

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, does ANYONE think McDermott is more responsible than Allen?!? If so, please identify yourself because I will not respect your football opinions moving forward. 

 

Nope. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, does ANYONE think McDermott is more responsible than Allen?!? If so, please identify yourself because I will not respect your football opinions moving forward. 

There are many who do hold McD as the saviour of the franchise.  Look at any thread questioning him and the emoji's that almost all are vomits,disagrees and negative as they disagree with any criticism.

 

I will pound on the drum that McD has hindered more then helped Allen.

 

The moves and money have been invested more in the defense then the franchise qb.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

There are many who do hold McD as the saviour of the franchise.  Look at any thread questioning him and the emoji's that almost all are vomits,disagrees and negative as they disagree with any criticism.

 

I will pound on the drum that McD has hindered more then helped Allen.

 

The moves and money have been invested more in the defense then the franchise qb.

 

No they don't and not even close.  It's the content of your post that they are vomitting and disagreeing with.  You for whatever reason cannot understand this. 

 

"Oh, they don't hate McDermott as much as me!!  They must think he's a savior!!"

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

There are many who do hold McD as the saviour of the franchise.  Look at any thread questioning him and the emoji's that almost all are vomits,disagrees and negative as they disagree with any criticism.

 

I will pound on the drum that McD has hindered more then helped Allen.

 

The moves and money have been invested more in the defense then the franchise qb.

I’ve asked them to identify themselves. I don’t think that ANYONE believes McDermott is more responsible than Allen. If they do, they can say it.

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

No they don't and not even close.  It's the content of your post that they are vomitting and disagreeing with.  You for whatever reason cannot understand this. 

 

"Oh, they don't hate McDermott as much as me!!  They must think he's a savior!!"

Again yes we know on my threads it is popular, but go to any thread were one questions McD or his tenure and the person who posted it is eviscerated in the first post.  Conversely praise McD and nothing but positive emoji's (looking at you eball). 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ve asked them to identify themselves. I don’t think that ANYONE believes McDermott is more responsible than Allen. If they do, they can say it.

I hope none, but many link them and doesn't question McD's development of him (which I do and that infuriates some).

 

Do you think McDermott should be credited with Allen's progress?  I say this because Reid certainly has played a hand in Mahomes ascension, Pederson for Hurts, McDaniel for Tua, Ben Johnson (OC) for Goff's resurgence........ 

[Royale with Cheese]

48 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again yes we know on my threads it is popular, but go to any thread were one questions McD or his tenure and the person who posted it is eviscerated in the first post.  Conversely praise McD and nothing but positive emoji's (looking at you eball). 

 

 

 

 

I hope none, but many link them and doesn't question McD's development of him (which I do and that infuriates some).

 

Do you think McDermott should be credited with Allen's progress?  I say this because Reid certainly has played a hand in Mahomes ascension, Pederson for Hurts, McDaniel for Tua, Ben Johnson (OC) for Goff's resurgence........ 

 

Wow, I mean wow.

 

Your strawman is incredible.  This anti-McDermott obsession is pretty damn weird.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Wow, I mean wow.

 

Your strawman is incredible.  This anti-McDermott obsession is pretty damn weird.  

What???? Your obsession with me is scary.  I've said over and over that McD is a decent coach, and damn I hope he and the Bills win a Superbowl this year.  

 

What I've never liked is how bad the offence was 2017-2019, the continual talk of "culture" and yep 13 seconds.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again yes we know on my threads it is popular, but go to any thread were one questions McD or his tenure and the person who posted it is eviscerated in the first post.  Conversely praise McD and nothing but positive emoji's (looking at you eball). 

 

 

 

 

I hope none, but many link them and doesn't question McD's development of him (which I do and that infuriates some).

 

Do you think McDermott should be credited with Allen's progress?  I say this because Reid certainly has played a hand in Mahomes ascension, Pederson for Hurts, McDaniel for Tua, Ben Johnson (OC) for Goff's resurgence........ 

I have never heard 1 single person say that McDermott is more responsible than Allen. You started a thread saying that this is a thing. I’m pretty involved in the “Bills world.” I’ve never once heard that. You just created a topic that no one thinks. Find people that believe McDermott is more responsible than Allen…

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I have never heard 1 single person say that McDermott is more responsible than Allen. You started a thread saying that this is a thing. I’m pretty involved in the “Bills world.” I’ve never once heard that. You just created a topic that no one thinks. Find people that believe McDermott is more responsible than Allen…

Just looking for attention.  It’s very sad to see.

[Billsfan1972]

24 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I have never heard 1 single person say that McDermott is more responsible than Allen. You started a thread saying that this is a thing. I’m pretty involved in the “Bills world.” I’ve never once heard that. You just created a topic that no one thinks. Find people that believe McDermott is more responsible than Allen…

I never said that what I said is I think McD has stunted Allen and that is my biggest concern about him.  I then cited Pederson, McDaniel, Reid and Johnson as coaches who have had a big hand in their qbs' success. 

[Kirby Jackson]

14 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I never said that what I said is I think McD has stunted Allen and that is my biggest concern about him.  I then cited Pederson, McDaniel, Reid and Johnson as coaches who have had a big hand in their qbs' success. 

 

On 10/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

@Billsfan1972 this you?

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

@Billsfan1972 this you?

Biggest problem with TBD is too many folks having debates with the voices in their heads.