Talk about McD and Allen are always linked Any QB ever become a transcended star on another team?

[Billsfan1972]

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who is responsible for the Bills success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[BuffaloBillyG]

Steve Young immediately comes to mind.

[Charles Romes]

If the Bills win it all it will because McD schemed 2+ turnovers in successive huge playoff games, and he will get the credit. Plunkett

[Trogdor]

Drew Brees, 2nd QB taken in his draft and really flourished in NO after getting injured on the Chargers. 

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Drew Brees, 2nd QB taken in his draft and really flourished in NO after getting injured on the Chargers. 

Drew really was the other example, but already showed he was a good QB prior to the trade.  

[Trogdor]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Drew really was the other example, but already showed he was a good QB prior to the trade.  

I think it was the comeback from injury. Generally teams don't let good QBs walk, so it's going to be a short list lol. 

[Chaos]

Steve Young is the best example.  Not many teams trade superstar QBs. Another that comes to mind for having second team success is Tom Brady 

[BobbyC81]

Jim Plunkett

[SWATeam]

Geno!

[oldmanfan]

43 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who  is responsible for the others success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

Jim Plunkett.

[Gregg]

Peyton had some really good years with the Broncos. But the last year or year and a half his skills were shot.

[The Jokeman]

59 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who  is responsible for the others success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

My immediate thought was Daryl Lamonica. Not so much he was limited here but he was stuck playing behind Kemp.

 

Steve Young might be a guy can claim was held back by coaching in Tampa or surrounding cast wasn't so good. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Scott7975]

51 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here at TSW the debate over McD and Allen and who  is responsible for the others success is always a hot topic.

 

There are those who hold McD in mythical regard as he resurrected a 2-14 franchise and is the saviour.  Yes hyperbole (never were they 2-14), because I have pointed out many times that Buffalo was seldom really bad during the 19 year drought, just never good enough.

 

I know I will hear just what bad shape the Bills were in due to salary cap and other issues when Rex left, but they were too a team vying for the playoffs his last year too.

 

Is McD a good coach, I think he is.  Is he great, I don't think so and thus I am one to say his success is basically due to having Josh Allen as the QB.

 

I have also blamed McD for holding Allen back and we still have not seen what he is fully capable of.

 

This is the divide on TSW....  The chicken or the egg so to speak.  Some think the Bills success is a 50/50 split, some may give McD more credit for the Bills and others say it is 80% due to Josh.

 

Now that brings me to the next part of the thread and we have been through all these highly drafted QB's and when a team hits the jackpot with one, they better cash in or else.

 

It then occurred to me that all the busts (or those that didn't live up to the hype) never really blossomed on another team.  Yes some back-ups and fringe starting QB's have done well with a change of scenery and better coaches, but has ever a top pick (ie. first 15) flamed out and then became a star elsewhere?

 

Jared Goff maybe the closest and is the perfect example of what having a great OC means to a QB.

 

Anyone else?

 

Can you list all the current head coaches you think are better than McD and why you think that?  Very few coaches around the league have had the success McD has had. Yes, some have had more success but not many has had as much success.  Allen is a part of that sure, but if you list coaches that haven't had success because they don't have a QB then you don't really know what kind of success they would have if they did have one.

[oldmanfan]

Doug Williams

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I think McDermott is vastly underrated around these parts and this whole talk of firing him because he can’t outduel likely the best qb of all time in the playoffs is an eerily similar setup to the bears firing lovie smith and promptly becoming an absolute dumpster fire.  The guy is getting a ton out of all his defensive players to the point where virtually anyone can step in and play pretty well.
 

We were frequently very bad during the drought and helped out by the fact that two other teams in our division were even worse 

 

this feels very ‘grass is greener to me’…look at the dolphins with their offensive mastermind head coach.  When they face a playoff caliber opponent their offense struggles and their defense gets smoked and barring a miracle they lose.  Dolphins are like 2-7 vs playoff teams in his tenure and those two wins they just barely squeaked by injury ravaged bills and ravens teams 

[mrags]

Steve Young

Brett Farve

Geno Smith

Drew Brees was pretty good for like 2 year in SD but he was nothing like he became with the Saints. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by mrags

[warrior9]

Alex Smith. 

 

He was good with 49ers near the end but very good with Chiefs

[Big Turk]

Rich Gannon...was mostly bad in Minnesota, nothing special in Washington or KC, then went to the Raiders and became 2002 MVP, 4x Pro-Bowler and 2x All-Pro.  Honestly very similar late career transcendence similar to Geno Smith. Smith hasn't reached that level yet and likely won't due to the number of other great QBs in the league right now, but he played very well last year.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GannRi00.htm

 

Brett Favre was mostly a bust with Atlanta and went to Green Bay,won Super Bowl(s) and became a HOF'er and 2x MVP, 11x Pro-Bowler and 3x All-Pro.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FavrBr00.htm

Edited October 19, 2023 by Big Turk

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Doug Williams

 

Doug Williams was never "transcendent" nor a star at anytime during his career.  He won a Super Bowl, was SB MVP and might have played a few good games here and there, but overall he was worse in Washington than he was in Tampa Bay.  Never threw more than 15 TD passes with the Redskins in a season.  Never was voted to the Pro-Bowl or All-Pro at any time during his career.

 

Simply put, he played the greatest game of his life in the Super Bowl but outside of that was nothing special.  Basically he wasn't even Nick Foles level. Kinda similar to Joe Namath too...everyone remembers the SB guarantee and win but his career numbers are abysmal.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillDo01.htm

Edited October 19, 2023 by Big Turk

[GunnerBill]

I don't know if I understand the relationship between the preamble and the question in the OP. 

 

"Here are some words about why I don't like Sean McDermott."

 

"Has any QB ever busted with one team then been good with another?"

 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't know if I understand the relationship between the preamble and the question in the OP. 

 

"Here are some words about why I don't like Sean McDermott."

 

"Has any QB ever busted with one team then been good with another?"

 

 

I mean clearly Allen is a bust.  These last two games prove it!!

[CincyBillsFan]

IMO what is holding Allen back from fully reaching his potential is roster construction not coaching.  And roster construction is primarily Beane.  A conscious decision was made in 2020 to direct the lions share of the teams draft capitol and free agent signings to the defense.  Diggs in 2020 is the last and only big free agent signing on Offense. 

 

There was some move away from this gong into this season with draft picks and an uptick in free agent signings on offense. 

 

The bottom line is that whether or not Bean's decision was right or wrong will play out over the next couple of seasons. I believe Bean was wrong where he placed his resources but I hope I am proven wrong in this belief.

 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Can you list all the current head coaches you think are better than McD and why you think that?  Very few coaches around the league have had the success McD has had. Yes, some have had more success but not many has had as much success.  Allen is a part of that sure, but if you list coaches that haven't had success because they don't have a QB then you don't really know what kind of success they would have if they did have one.

Again here we go.  Is McD's success due to his coaching or Allen as the qb?  I think he was too slow in developing Allen (again jmho) and he still isn't playing to his full potential.

 

Again some people here will die on the hill defending McD.  I think he is a good coach, however he's done things on offense that are inexcusable imo (Peterman) and 13 seconds I can't forget (or forgive).

[Just in Atlanta]

Uh, Tom Brady

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

Again here we go.  Is McD's success due to his coaching or Allen as the qb?  I think he was too slow in developing Allen (again jmho) and he still isn't playing to his full potential.

 

Again some people here will die on the hill defending McD.  I think he is a good coach, however he's done things on offense that are inexcusable imo (Peterman) and 13 seconds I can't forget (or forgive).

 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think McDermott is vastly underrated around these parts and this whole talk of firing him because he can’t outduel likely the best qb of all time in the playoffs is an eerily similar setup to the bears firing lovie smith and promptly becoming an absolute dumpster fire.  The guy is getting a ton out of all his defensive players to the point where virtually anyone can step in and play pretty well.
 

We were frequently very bad during the drought and helped out by the fact that two other teams in our division were even worse 

 

this feels very ‘grass is greener to me’…look at the dolphins with their offensive mastermind head coach.  When they face a playoff caliber opponent their offense struggles and their defense gets smoked and barring a miracle they lose.  Dolphins are like 2-7 vs playoff teams in his tenure and those two wins they just barely squeaked by injury ravaged bills and ravens teams 

Didn't they beat LAC this year (who were a playoff team last year).  Like McD he made the playoffs his first year (and his QB missed huge chunks of time and the playoffs) with the same record and this year they look good.  

 

You like McD, I get it, however I don't agree with it.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 

You like McD, I get it, however I don't agree with it.  

 

We know, because you drone on about it endlessly in every thread you start and then, if this thread is anything to go by, ask a question that is totally unrelated to your droning. 

[Bray Wyatt]

This is a strawman if I ever saw one

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Didn't they beat LAC this year (who were a playoff team last year).  Like McD he made the playoffs his first year (and his QB missed huge chunks of time and the playoffs) with the same record and this year they look good.  

 

You like McD, I get it, however I don't agree with it.  

 

Just now, Bray Wyatt said:

This is a strawman if I ever saw one

 

It's pointless and stupid.  

[Scott7975]

59 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again here we go.  Is McD's success due to his coaching or Allen as the qb?  I think he was too slow in developing Allen (again jmho) and he still isn't playing to his full potential.

 

Again some people here will die on the hill defending McD.  I think he is a good coach, however he's done things on offense that are inexcusable imo (Peterman) and 13 seconds I can't forget (or forgive).

 

You haven't answered my question.

 

What current HC's are better than McDermott and why are they better?

56 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Didn't they beat LAC this year (who were a playoff team last year).  Like McD he made the playoffs his first year (and his QB missed huge chunks of time and the playoffs) with the same record and this year they look good.  

 

You like McD, I get it, however I don't agree with it.  

LAC is 2-3 this year and 3rd in their division.

[Billsfan1972]

14 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You haven't answered my question.

 

What current HC's are better than McDermott and why are they better?

LAC is 2-3 this year and 3rd in their division.

I don't care......  I watch the NFL every week and watch probably too much.  However I don't do a deep dive into the coaches at all and sure I can't name 50% of them or know the new hot shots or best one's according to the experts.  But I watch the Bills and frankly not overly enamored with McD. 

 

Of course I'll be told how wrong I am, but he took a perfectly functioning offense his first year coaching an turned them into a bottom 3 offense the next 2 years (same QB too).

[Nephilim17]

I don't think many here have said the McDermott is responsible for Josh's success, exactly, but the team's culture shift, and the defensive success.

 

Who has said McDermott made Josh a great QB?

 

The question many debate is this:

Are the Bills better off with a proven offensive coach who can lead not just the team but Allen — and thus preclude the revolving door of OCs we will have if we sustain offensive success which will lead to OCs getting head coach jobs.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the more prevalent question here.

I'm sure some head coaches could do a better job with Allen. That may or may not come at the expense of our "culture" and defensive success. If we have an early and embarrassing playoff exit this year, I would not cry if we moved in another coaching direction though I doubt that would happen this offseason as Terry trusts McDermott and may give him a longer leash than many, or even most, will like.

[Billsfan1972]

25 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I don't think many here have said the McDermott is responsible for Josh's success, exactly, but the team's culture shift, and the defensive success.

 

Who has said McDermott made Josh a great QB?

 

The question many debate is this:

Are the Bills better off with a proven offensive coach who can lead not just the team but Allen — and thus preclude the revolving door of OCs we will have if we sustain offensive success which will lead to OCs getting head coach jobs.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the more prevalent question here.

I'm sure some head coaches could do a better job with Allen. That may or may not come at the expense of our "culture" and defensive success. If we have an early and embarrassing playoff exit this year, I would not cry if we moved in another coaching direction though I doubt that would happen this offseason as Terry trusts McDermott and may give him a longer leash than many, or even most, will like.

Been a while since the word Culture  has been used.  It was overused and frankly was tired hearing it all the time.

 

Rightly or wrongly I will continue to note that McD took over a perfectly functional offense and turned it into a bottom 3 one his first two years (marginally better year 3 @ 24th in the league).  

 

He is not an offensive mided coach and with Allen as the QB, that is not a good mix imo.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Bills win or lose because of Allen.

You can find 20 other headcoaxhes to do just as well or better than McD.

There are only 2-4 other QBs even in the discussion with Allen. 

 

 

As for second chance QBs, I would add Kurt Warner. Won a SB and then almost had another with the Carinals. 

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Bills win or lose because of Allen.

You can find 20 other headcoaxhes to do just as well or better than McD.

There are only 2-4 other QBs even in the discussion with Allen. 

 

 

As for second chance QBs, I would add Kurt Warner. Won a SB and then almost had another with the Carinals. 

Kurt Warner was bagging groceries (he was undrafted).

 

Many QB's that were low draft picks have excelled under the proper coach. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You haven't answered my question.

 

What current HC's are better than McDermott and why are they better?

LAC is 2-3 this year and 3rd in their division.

You have to put HCs w Super Bowl ahead of him and there are 9 of them

 

Add to that list Shanahan, McDaniel, and Siriani

 

McDermott fits in that 13-15 spot w the Vrabels and LaFleurs of the world

[oldmanfan]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You have to put HCs w Super Bowl ahead of him and there are 9 of them

 

Add to that list Shanahan, McDaniel, and Siriani

 

McDermott fits in that 13-15 spot w the Vrabels and LaFleurs of the world

Mc Daniel?  Funniest thing I've read in a long time.

[Freddie's Dead]

Ryan Fitzpatrick 

Vinny Testaverde

[BigDingus]

Well for a long time salary cap/free agency era wasnt a thing, so players mainly stuck with the teams that drafted them.

 

But after the players & owners negotiated a cap and true free agency, great players began bouncing around new teams like crazy.

 

As for examples, Matt Stafford is the first that comes to mind. He was #1 overall in Detroit (I think), never won anything, then ends up winning the SB his first year in LA.

 

And even though Manning wasn't very good the year he won a SB with the Broncos, he still had some amazing years there and won an MVP.

 

Kurt Warner is another who, although not a high draft pick, had great success late in his career with the Cardinals after most people thought he was destined for backup/journeyman roles.

 

I think McD deserves a lot of credit early, but the past several years the credit has shifted more towards Allen.

[Virgil]

Both.  We made the playoffs with McD before Josh was here.  Josh and Daboll elevated the Bills to the next level.  From all of that, the team learned how to win, which is a mindset that is undervalued.  

 

If Josh never came here, I think we would still be a 9-10 win team that made the wildcard more seasons than not.