Jim Kubiak Analysis in BN

[Casey D]

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

[dave mcbride]

Can you link to it? It’s not on the main page and I can access it with a link.

[Xwnyer]

2 minutes ago, Casey D said:

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

he needs to learn to adapt faster.

[thenorthremembers]

My issue with Dorsey right now isn't so much the schemes but how he uses them.   It was especially evident during the Giants game.  Run, Run, Run or Pass, Pass, Pass.    Need more motion, more misdirection.  Love to see a jet sweep here or there.

 

I will say the play call on the Harty touchdown was brilliant.   Still early and overall the offense has been good.   

[Long Suffering Fan]

3 minutes ago, Casey D said:

A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan. 

 

One of the things that bothers me the most about announcers is when they show a borderline PI call and then say that the refs will always call that.  Come on, announcer dude.  You have to know that it is a coin flip at best that it would get called.  All you had to do was pay attention to the game you were calling and you would have seen it uncalled several times.  Collingsworth is terrible with that nonsense.

[Casey D]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Can you link to it? It’s not on the main page and I can access it with a link.

Tried to do it but failed.  Just go to BN sports page, it's right there.

2 minutes ago, Casey D said:

Tried to do it but failed.  Just go to BN sports page, it's right there.

It's funny, the word sn*tched is not a permitted word on the forum.  🙂

Edited October 18, 2023 by Casey D

[corta765]

13 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

he needs to learn to adapt faster.

Chris Trapasso said watching it back Dorsey needs to learn run/pass balance quicker. He said once he found it the offense opened up. I think that is why the last two weeks compared to the prior 3 the offense took so long. Jags game it felt like we wanted to run and they aimed to shut it down, Giants we wanted to pass and once we switched things improved. Mix in some bad drops, penalties, and miscues like the fumble its a bad recipe if your slow to the gun.

[Captain Hindsight]

I noticed the man to man right away from the stands. It worked so well because Gabe couldn't get open. Diggs was bracketed a lot and Josh missed a few throws.

 

58 for the Giants was making some great plays and Adoree Jackson is a good corner. The fact we have a good running game saved us. Murray and Torrance have been the best pickups in years 

[Charles Romes]

When things were not working for Daboll he just pounded the rock with Allen as the ball carrier, mortgaging the future of the franchise. I’m willing to be patient with Dorsey, even sacrificing a few Ws if he is able to demonstrate a path to extending Allen’s prime.  

[juno999]

6 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

I noticed the man to man right away from the stands. It worked so well because Gabe couldn't get open. Diggs was bracketed a lot and Josh missed a few throws.

 

58 for the Giants was making some great plays and Adoree Jackson is a good corner. The fact we have a good running game saved us. Murray and Torrance have been the best pickups in years 

Bobby Okereke 58 was flying all over the field

[DrDawkinstein]

26 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Can you link to it? It’s not on the main page and I can access it with a link.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-bills-gave-up-on-what-they-are-known-for-to-do-what-they/article_20169eda-6d43-11ee-834a-9b13caabb97c.html

[boyst]

i really dislike that there is a website like this website that make it easy to read articles behind paywalls. it just doesn't seem fair.

Edited October 18, 2023 by boyst

[juno999]

Dorsey needed to switch to run game sooner.  Davis' fumble early on gave the Giants a boost.  Giants coaching staff has quite a few former Bills coaches which I believe gave the Giants an edge in game planning and preparation.  The Giants aren't going anywhere this season but played a spirited game and wanted this game badly.

[78thealltimegreat]

42 minutes ago, Casey D said:

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

A 45 million dollar TE makes that catch Josh has been let down by his skill talent far too often 

[Punching Bag]

42 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Can you link to it? It’s not on the main page and I can access it with a link.

 

Do a google search - search for "Jim Kubiak" for last week.

 

It is NOT a paywall - it is a pay fence and there are ways around it.

Or send me PM with your email address and I will send you PDF of Buffalo News webpage. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

One would hope that when Kincaid gets back, he is another option against man coverage. That said, I am surprised that a guy like Harty can’t get open against man. 

[Low Positive]

Incognito windows are not just for porn. Just sayin'.

[pocoboy]

7 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

A 45 million dollar TE makes that catch Josh has been let down by his skill talent far too often 

 

We look back on this and it certainly feels like that extension had an extenuating circumstance. Knox has made plenty of good plays, so this is somewhat a "what have you done for me lately" sentiment we're rallying around to bash him. But the extension came right after tragedy, perhaps a goodwill gesture to help him through a situation no one ever wants to experience.

[Franco_92]

51 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

he needs to learn to adapt faster.

The bills took at least 3 drives 5-15 yards into giants territory before allen either threw a pick, misread a mesh concept, Davis fumbled etc. It's not like the Bills went 3 and out 10 times before dorsey decided to try something different lol

 

 

[pocoboy]

6 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

One would hope that when Kincaid gets back, he is another option against man coverage. That said, I am surprised that a guy like Harty can’t get open against man. 

 

Harty's only seeing the field about 1/5 of the time on offense, guess it's easy to get away from man coverage when you're riding pine.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Casey D said:

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

 

 

Yeah the Dorsey hate has gone far overboard.

 

Times are very different for these Bills than they were for Daboll in 20-21.  

 

Less skill talent at receiver and Allen is not being used in the run game.  

 

Still.........the offense is more consistent than the one he left behind and has a higher floor as a result.

[boater]

41 minutes ago, boyst said:

i really dislike that there is a website like this website that make it easy to read articles behind paywalls. it just doesn't seem fair.

The Buffalo News treats their subscribers shabby. I mean really shabby. Overpriced, poor delivery, non-response to delivery complaints, and just try to cancel--you almost can't. And moving printing to Cleveland, killing 130 jobs...  I have a hard time shedding a tear for them.

[Casey D]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah the Dorsey hate has gone far overboard.

 

Times are very different for these Bills than they were for Daboll in 20-21.  

 

Less skill talent at receiver and Allen is not being used in the run game.  

 

Still.........the offense is more consistent than the one he left behind and has a higher floor as a result.

Agree.  People seem to think it is automatic for an offense/athlete to always bring its "A" game and score 48 points like against Miami.  Sports don't work that way.  You don't always have your A game, and winning with your C game is the mark of a great athlete-- like great pitchers in baseball.

[boyst]

13 minutes ago, boater said:

The Buffalo News treats their subscribers shabby. I mean really shabby. Overpriced, poor delivery, non-response to delivery complaints, and just try to cancel--you almost can't. And moving printing to Cleveland, killing 130 jobs...  I have a hard time shedding a tear for them.

it was sarcasm.

 

any media outlet that failed to adapt and get ahead of the technological curve deserves to die in their own filth for their history. newspapers are especially disgusting, Gannet and the whole USA today network has destroyed rural american news.

[BillsFan130]

Sure the bills adapted and got 2 TDs.

 

But how many hero plays did Josh have to make for those drives to sustain?

 

I can count to 2-3 at the top of my head

[Allen2Moulds]

42 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

We had zero points after 3 quarters. Not to mention a similar start the week before. We miss Beasley big time, but we've improved in the trenches, at RB, and TE. Prob is, Dorsey has trouble incorporating the new pieces. He runs way too much on neutral downs, and lacks feel. In my opinion, that's why we always look out of rhythm. 

It's.....Josh do something great, or we won't score.

 

Yeah the Dorsey hate has gone far overboard.

 

Times are very different for these Bills than they were for Daboll in 20-21.  

 

Less skill talent at receiver and Allen is not being used in the run game.  

 

Still.........the offense is more consistent than the one he left behind and has a higher floor as a result.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Casey D said:

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

Why wait until the second half? Why not change approach on the second possession? That's my problem with Dorsey!! Thankfully the defense held them down until the second half

[EasternOHBillsFan]

I would like to know what by definition is tripping in the NFL rules because the two times in the first quarter when Josh went deep our receivers were tripped and they didn't bat an eyelash.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Can you link to it? It’s not on the main page and I can access it with a link.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-bills-gave-up-on-what-they-are-known-for-to-do-what-they/article_20169eda-6d43-11ee-834a-9b13caabb97c.html#tncms-source=login

 

Quote

Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills survived a close game against a New York Giants team led by former offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and former Bills quarterback Tyrod Taylor. This blast from the past gave this game more meaning for everyone, particularly Allen, who had been tutored and developed by Daboll. This might have played into the Bills’ offensive woes in the embarrassing first half as Allen, one of the NFL’s premier players, was beleaguered by the Giants’ plan to disrupt. Allen completed just 8 of 18 attempts with zero touchdowns and one interception in a half that consisted of six consecutive punts no trips to the red zone.

 

Quote

Offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey had trouble finding solutions to the Giants’ physical play with the Bills wide receivers early in this game as the clawing, grabbing, and tripping forced Allen to hold the football. Dorsey called 29 offensive plays in the first half, of which 20 were passes (69%) and only nine were runs (31%). Dorsey changed the offensive strategy in the second half as, with a total of 30 plays, he called for 19 runs (63%) and just 11 passes (37%) This proved to be the difference, nullifying the Giants’ tight coverage, and taking the pressure off Allen, who struggled early.

 

The good news is, we had a run game to turn to.

 

Warning: while I like Kubiak and currently subscribe to TBN (reconsidering), when I went to read the article I got a stupid pop up window playing Nick Wrong. 🤮  TBN needs to lose that, or I'm gone.  They used to have a trial available cheap....worth looking at IMO.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Casey D said:

It is behind a pay wall so I won't link it, but he has a very different take on the Giants game.  In a nutshell, he shows that in the first half, the Giants did an excellent job of taking away what the Bills want to do-- an explosive offense.  A combination of good blitzes, and excellent man-to-man coverage aided by lots of tripping and clutching and grabbing by the Giants, utterly spoiled the Bills game plan.  Allen was 8-18.

 

In the second half,  Dorsey totally changed course and went with a ground and pound running approach that worked.  In their first two possessions (they only had three) the Bills had two long time consuming drives that used up most of the clock.  17 run plays and only 11 passes, and it nullified what the Giants successfully did in the first half.  Allen, with pressure off due to a solid running attack, was 10-11 in the second half, the incompletion being the pass to Knox late.

 

On that play, Allen had a run/pass option, and he hesitated in his decision making.  He thought about running and held the ball a tad too long before making the throw to Knox.  The result was a poor throw that still could have been caught.  But the play call was excellent and should have ended the game but the execution was poor.

 

I know everyone hates Dorsey right now, and I guess it is understandable and perhaps warranted.  But his ability to change approach in the second half and ***** victory from the jaws of defeat deserves some credit IMO.

Caaaaaaaaareful.  You’re close to stepping on the 17th rail and you’ve failed to point out that Knox is to blame for everything.

Edited October 18, 2023 by 4merper4mer

[Punching Bag]

50 minutes ago, boater said:

The Buffalo News treats their subscribers shabby. I mean really shabby. Overpriced, poor delivery, non-response to delivery complaints, and just try to cancel--you almost can't. And moving printing to Cleveland, killing 130 jobs...  I have a hard time shedding a tear for them.

 

Simplest way to handle subscriptions to Buffalo News is use a credit card that you do not use very often and when you wish to change contact credit card company telling them that you need to cancel because it is possible that number was written down and they will cancel and send you a new one.  Credit card companies prefer this to taking chance of them paying out for disputed charge.

40 minutes ago, boyst said:

it was sarcasm.

 

any media outlet that failed to adapt and get ahead of the technological curve deserves to die in their own filth for their history. newspapers are especially disgusting, Gannet and the whole USA today network has destroyed rural american news.

 

I used to refer to USA Today given free at hotel as McPapers - junk food without much taste.

[Dr. K]

1 hour ago, Charles Romes said:

When things were not working for Daboll he just pounded the rock with Allen as the ball carrier, mortgaging the future of the franchise. I’m willing to be patient with Dorsey, even sacrificing a few Ws if he is able to demonstrate a path to extending Allen’s prime.  

There were plenty of times when passing was not working that Daboll continued to try passing instead of "pounding the rock." 

 

Case in point, in 2021 when the Bills' lost to the Jags 9-6, Allen threw 47 passes. They ran the ball with the running backs a total of nine times for 22 yards. Allen ran the ball 5 times; some of those were undoubtedly scrambles. 

 

Dorsey is much more willing to change strategy rather than hit his head against a brick wall. 

[Beck Water]

Gonna try to put in his assessment of Josh's pick:

 

 

Quote

Here, Dorsey had Knox run a seam-post from the slot with a circle route out of the backfield for Latavius Murray. Allen tried to get the seam-post throw over the top of and behind Okereke, but unfortunately the linebacker's depth combined with this great play to reach back and tip the football created the interception. The other aspect that contributed to the interception was Allen feeling the need to throw it into this tight window and not taking the check down to Murray. The Giants have two excellent linebackers in Okereke and Micah McFadden, and both played great in this game.

 

This seems to me to be an example of where I question, not the play design per se, but the details of how the routes are being executed.

 

It seems to me (and I could be way off) that if the idea is to target Knox, he ideally needs to run upfield a few more yards before he makes his cut.  That would force 41 to backpedal and give Knox a bit more separation.  It seems to me it would also get Murray and Knox more in sync.  The whole idea of that route combination as I understand it is to put Okereke in confliction between covering Murray and covering Knox.  Now partly, I think Okereke is playing on inside knowledge of Josh's tendencies - Daboll knows that Josh hates the checkdown and seldom takes it.  But even if he weren't, it seems to me the routes aren't coordinated properly, and Okereke has no need to be worried about Murray at the point where Josh throws.

 

Again, I'm going off what I see, and I could be mistaken.  And the receivers could be coached to run shorter routes because they are quicker, so there's that.

[4merper4mer]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Gonna try to put in his assessment of Josh's pick:

 

 

 

This seems to me to be an example of where I question, not the play design per se, but the details of how the routes are being executed.

 

It seems to me (and I could be way off) that if the idea is to target Knox, he ideally needs to run upfield a few more yards before he makes his cut.  That would force 41 to backpedal and give Knox a bit more separation.  It seems to me it would also get Murray and Knox more in sync.  The whole idea of that route combination as I understand it is to put Okereke in confliction between covering Murray and covering Knox.  Now partly, I think Okereke is playing on inside knowledge of Josh's tendencies - Daboll knows that Josh hates the checkdown and seldom takes it.  But even if he weren't, it seems to me the routes aren't coordinated properly, and Okereke has no need to be worried about Murray at the point where Josh throws.

 

Again, I'm going off what I see, and I could be mistaken.  And the receivers could be coached to run shorter routes because they are quicker, so there's that.

Good job working in some blame for Knox AND Dorsey while keeping clear of the 17th rail.

[Breakout Squad]

2 hours ago, Casey D said:

Tried to do it but failed.  Just go to BN sports page, it's right there.

It's funny, the word sn*tched is not a permitted word on the forum.  🙂

I was wondering about that. So the movie Sn*tch isn’t discussable either 😝

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Good job working in some blame for Knox AND Dorsey while keeping clear of the 17th rail.

 

You realize this is becoming a campaign - multiple threads, multiple posts beating the same drum?

 

Most people can understand this part of my post is actually justifiable criticism of Josh, one that I've made several times where merited:

Quote

Now partly, I think Okereke is playing on inside knowledge of Josh's tendencies - Daboll knows that Josh hates the checkdown and seldom takes it. 

 

If you can't take the time to process and understand that, what does that say?  It says to me you're campaigning and crusading.  

Criticizing Josh is fine, having a mistaken opinion that calls a scored drop "95% on Josh" for not making a throw "a HS QB could make" is your right, but going on and on and on about it in double-digit posts now in 4 different threads while manufacturing a non-existent conspiracy/unwritten rule where it's supposedly off limits in this forum to criticize Josh (despite the fact that reasonable and reasoned critique of 17 is all over the forum) - that's getting to be a bit much.

 

 

58 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

I would like to know what by definition is tripping in the NFL rules because the two times in the first quarter when Josh went deep our receivers were tripped and they didn't bat an eyelash.

 

It seems that the zebras will give the benefit of the doubt to "oh their feet just got accidentally tangled" wherever possible.  A trip pretty much has to be "I stuck my foot out in your path just as you got there".

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[juno999]

1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

I would like to know what by definition is tripping in the NFL rules because the two times in the first quarter when Josh went deep our receivers were tripped and they didn't bat an eyelash.

The Davis play - the refs aren't going to call that one.  Guys getting their feet caught won't draw a penalty.  The second one seemed like a penalty but I haven't looked at it again.  Tripping is usually called around the LOS where an OL or DL deliberately sticks his leg out in front of an opponent.

[sunshynman]

3 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Sure the bills adapted and got 2 TDs.

 

But how many hero plays did Josh have to make for those drives to sustain?

 

I can count to 2-3 at the top of my head

Ok. And that's what you sometimes need your franchise QB to do. That is a team execution problem. When guys fumble, drop the ball, run the wrong route, or just are not in sync; your superstars need to carry them.

 

That's not a play calling issue. I don't think Doresy is great. I think he tries to adjust. But overall he attempts to adjust more than Dabol ever did. He can make some silly play calls. like shotgun on 4 and < 1. The team just has not found a good rhythm yet. 

[Chas56]

4 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

  Still early and overall the offense has been good.   

Look back, then re-read that sentence. 

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

When things were not working for Daboll he just pounded the rock with Allen as the ball carrier, mortgaging the future of the franchise. I’m willing to be patient with Dorsey, even sacrificing a few Ws if he is able to demonstrate a path to extending Allen’s prime.  

Much better to attempt to work out the kinks with the offense in October and November than to rush your QB to gain wins and not address bigger issues. 
 

Will Dorsey get it together? I don’t know but it’s better they find out now than late in the season or playoffs