2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[BananaB]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The New England game was totally on defense. The other games in that spell honestly there was plenty of blame to go around.

There is plenty of blame to go around. Can’t deny it.  One unit stepped up in the final moments of a close games  and the other unit didn’t. How you play in the final minutes of close games is the difference between winning and losing. I said it over and over again, I don’t expect perfect football every time this team steps on the field. Fact is they had a chance to win and the D couldn’t make a stop. Also when we got within 1 score against the Bengals and the Jags, we needed the ball for another chance and the D didn’t make the stop. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

After the Phins game the defense had a big stretch of games where they  were basically rated the last in the league. It was during that stretch they gave up 4 4th quarter leads in the last 2 minutes. I know the O never looked good either but they stepped up to the plate when games were on the line. Big part of that was Josh Allen. 
 

No sense acting like they have played like a 12th ranked defense for 16 weeks, everyone who watched the Bills knows that ain’t the case. 

The 12th ranked defense is in the aggregate of the season, so yeah they are the 12th ranked defense.

 

You guys should watch other teams, when the offense goes to sleep for 3 quarters, a lot of teams are losing by double digits, not by 4.

Edited December 30, 2023 by FireChans

[FireChans]

23 minutes ago, BananaB said:

There is plenty of blame to go around. Can’t deny it.  One unit stepped up in the final moments of a close games  and the other unit didn’t. How you play in the final minutes of close games is the difference between winning and losing. I said it over and over again, I don’t expect perfect football every time this team steps on the field. Fact is they had a chance to win and the D couldn’t make a stop. Also when we got within 1 score against the Bengals and the Jags, we needed the ball for another chance and the D didn’t make the stop. 

Games where Josh Allen and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

4 total

 

1-3 in those games

 

Games where Lamar Jackson and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

2 total 

 

1-1 in those games

 

 

MVP

[Ralonzo]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Games where Josh Allen and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

4 total

 

1-3 in those games

 

Games where Lamar Jackson and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

2 total 

 

1-1 in those games

 

 

MVP

 

[BananaB]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The 12th ranked defense is in the aggregate of the season, so yeah they are the 12th ranked defense.

 

You guys should watch other teams, when the offense goes to sleep for 3 quarters, a lot of teams are losing by double digits, not by 4.

What were they ranked from the Jags game until the bye week? During that stretch they lost 5 games, if that’s not a big deal to you I don’t know what to say. If you want to mix it in with the other stats because it’s convenient you might as well just not reply. Both units were bad over that stretch, one unit stepped up in key situations though 

[Patrick Duffy]

31 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

As one GM said he would make a better RB.

I'd have to disagree with that particular GM. Would be a small RB 

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Games where Josh Allen and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

4 total

 

1-3 in those games

 

Games where Lamar Jackson and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

2 total 

 

1-1 in those games

 

 

MVP

 

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

What were they ranked from the Jags game until the bye week? During that stretch they lost 5 games, if that’s not a big deal to you I don’t know what to say. If you want to mix it in with the other stats because it’s convenient you might as well just not reply. Both units were bad over that stretch, one unit stepped up in key situations though 

 

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, BananaB said:

Ravens have drafted 3 WRs in the first round in 5 years and the weapons excuse keeps getting tossed out there for mediocre play.

 

Most Ravens fans I know blamed Ravens offense production on former OC who tailored offense for Lamar Jackson.

[Scott7975]

59 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Are you just making up arguments in your head now? Where did I say I’d rather have Davis over Flowers? I said I’d rather have Davis over washed up OBJ. But I’d rather have Diggs over Flowers.

 

dont get so emotional about this to just make up things. It’s a bad look. 

 

You didnt even mention OBJ in this dude.  It isn't my fault you can't type.  I'm not emotional at all.  You are the one that has to come to Lamars rescue anytime someone says anything negative dude.  You are the emotional one.  I don't give two craps about Lamar or MVP.

 

"Flowers is a stud. The rest are meh. I know we had a 150 page on his being our number 2 receiver, but he is not even a top 30 receiver at this point of his career. I’d rather have Davis than him (though hopefully we improve that spot next year)."

 

Nothing in there says OBJ.  You mention Flowers.  Thats it.  For that matter, I would take OBJ over Davis still.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Scott7975

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

After the Phins game the defense had a big stretch of games where they  were basically rated the last in the league. It was during that stretch they gave up 4 4th quarter leads in the last 2 minutes. I know the O never looked good either but they stepped up to the plate when games were on the line. Big part of that was Josh Allen. 
 

No sense acting like they have played like a 12th ranked defense for 16 weeks, everyone who watched the Bills knows that ain’t the case. 

So right around the time we had to find a way to fill the void left by 3 of our best defensive starters.

[BananaB]

10 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

So right around the time we had to find a way to fill the void left by 3 of our best defensive starters.

Pretty much. It doesn’t change anything though, they were playing bad football. We’d probably have a better record if the McD fired Dorsey earlier, it is what it is though.  Staff added players on D to help and fired Dorsey to help. Both seemed to work out for them so far. Still over that bad stretch the O did their job late in games and the D didn’t, that’s why our record is what it is

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Games where Josh Allen and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

4 total

 

1-3 in those games

 

Games where Lamar Jackson and the offense failed to score more than 10 points through 3 quarters:

 

2 total 

 

1-1 in those games

 

 

MVP

it’s that easy to be MVP these days? lol. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

it’s that easy to be MVP these days? lol. 

So easy, only some QB's can do it.

[chongli]

 

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

42 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

 

 

 

 

When is the last time an MVP winner had a TD:TO ratio less than 2:1?

 

Jackson and Tua are turnover machines. But it is Allen who has the turnover problem says everyone. Okaaaay. 
 

Also, everyone easily leaves out Allen’s receiving TD in 2020. He had 46 TD’s that year. 
 

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

When is the last time an MVP winner had a TD:TO ratio less than 2:1?

 

Jackson and Tua are turnover machines. But it is Allen who has the turnover problem says everyone. Okaaaay. 
 

Also, everyone easily leaves out Allen’s receiving TD in 2020. He had 46 TD’s that year. 
 

We often forget he could probably actually be a triple threat.

[Punch]

58 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

 

 

 

 

One argument against Allen's MVP candidacy I've heard in this very thread is that his rushing TDs shouldn't hold much merit because it isn't a QB stat and other teams have RBs that score rushing TDs. This is a ridiculous assertion--- the MVP award is not a "best QB" award, regardless if it's typically given to a QB. Should McCaffrey and Mostert get dinged because they've scored rushing TDs that could have instead been scored by QBs or even other RBs? What are we doing here, is he a football player or not? 

 

Then again, one brilliant assertion I read here the other day is that "MULTIPLE players" would need to "literally die" for Allen to be considered. The mind boggles, my dudes.

[Punching Bag]

7 minutes ago, Punch said:

One argument against Allen's MVP candidacy I've heard in this very thread is that his rushing TDs shouldn't hold much merit because it isn't a QB stat and other teams have RBs that score rushing TDs. This is a ridiculous assertion--- the MVP award is not a "best QB" award, regardless if it's typically given to a QB. Should McCaffrey and Mostert get dinged because they've scored rushing TDs that could have instead been scored by QBs or even other RBs? What are we doing here, is he a football player or not? 

 

Then again, one brilliant assertion I read here the other day is that "MULTIPLE players" would need to "literally die" for Allen to be considered. The mind boggles, my dudes.

 

So it Tua and Lamar get in a fight and kill each other next week Allen's chance goes up.

Good to know.

 

Allen better be careful and not catch any passes this week.

 

Is there a negative for being on cover of Madden?

[julian]

12 minutes ago, Punch said:

One argument against Allen's MVP candidacy I've heard in this very thread is that his rushing TDs shouldn't hold much merit because it isn't a QB stat and other teams have RBs that score rushing TDs. This is a ridiculous assertion--- the MVP award is not a "best QB" award, regardless if it's typically given to a QB. Should McCaffrey and Mostert get dinged because they've scored rushing TDs that could have instead been scored by QBs or even other RBs? What are we doing here, is he a football player or not? 

 

Then again, one brilliant assertion I read here the other day is that "MULTIPLE players" would need to "literally die" for Allen to be considered. The mind boggles, my dudes.

The reason the Bills run Allen inside the redzone is because he’s the greatest redzone threat in the NFL, every time the Bills hand it off down there it’s a win for the opposing team.

 

 Every other QB in the NFL isn’t the best option for their team down in the redzone where it’s tight and congested because those QBs aren’t 6’5 250lbs with wheels.

[Punch]

Just now, julian said:

The reason the Bills run Allen inside the redzone is because he’s the greatest redzone threat in the NFL, every time the Bills hand it off down there it’s a win for the opposing team.

 

 Every other QB in the NFL isn’t the best option for their team down in the redzone where it’s tight and congested because those QBs aren’t 6’5 250lbs with wheels.

Naturally, so why would it be a negative for his candidacy? That's what's being argued. 

[DapperCam]

10 minutes ago, julian said:

The reason the Bills run Allen inside the redzone is because he’s the greatest redzone threat in the NFL, every time the Bills hand it off down there it’s a win for the opposing team.

 

 Every other QB in the NFL isn’t the best option for their team down in the redzone where it’s tight and congested because those QBs aren’t 6’5 250lbs with wheels.

Lamar Jackson is way lighter than Allen and not nearly as good at running in the red zone. He just got stuffed from the 1 yard line this past week, where Allen definitely would have scored.

 

There is a reason the Ravens run with RBs down there. I don’t get the “vultured TD” argument.

[julian]

32 minutes ago, Punch said:

Naturally, so why would it be a negative for his candidacy? That's what's being argued. 

Yeah it’s an absurd argument, I’m guessing they have to try and explain away why Lamar deserves it over Josh who will end up with close to 20 more TDs than Lamar.

 

 It’s a lame argument.

[JGMcD2]

11 hours ago, dma0034 said:

Does anyone know how many 1 yard TDs Allen has? 

The Bills have 20 rushing TDs. 

 

Murray has scored from 2, 3, 2 and 4. 
 

James Cook from 1 and 24.

 

Damien Harris from 1. 

 

Josh is from: 

1 (3x)

2 (2x)

3 

6 (2x)

9

10

11

13

16

 

He’s not benefiting from the Jalen Hurts tush push (11/15 TDs from 1 or less). 
 

[JESSEFEFFER]

Ok.  I haven't thought I could add much to this discussion other than there is no other QB I'd rather have for the Bills than Josh.  This is true in most every way conceivable.  He has exceeded all reasonable expectations in almost every way possible.  But, I was doing some self educating and found the NFelo website and took this snip.  I tell my kids that math is beautiful because it is the basis of science and science is the best hope of humanity.  So, I rest my case.

[Ya Digg?]

3 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Ok.  I haven't thought I could add much to this discussion other than there is no other QB I'd rather have for the Bills than Josh.  This is true in most every way conceivable.  He has exceeded all reasonable expectations in almost every way possible.  But, I was doing some self educating and found the NFelo website and took this snip.  I tell my kids that math is beautiful because it is the basis of science and science is the best hope of humanity.  So, I rest my case.

So obviously I know what this all means, but maybe you should break it down for, uh, the other posters who, like, don’t get this….because again obviously I do

[dma0034]

18 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So obviously I know what this all means, but maybe you should break it down for, uh, the other posters who, like, don’t get this….because again obviously I do

 

It's kinda like WAR in baseball. Vs the average starter Allen nets 3.9 points more per game. Which is .8 more than Hurts in 2nd place.

[JGMcD2]

31 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Ok.  I haven't thought I could add much to this discussion other than there is no other QB I'd rather have for the Bills than Josh.  This is true in most every way conceivable.  He has exceeded all reasonable expectations in almost every way possible.  But, I was doing some self educating and found the NFelo website and took this snip.  I tell my kids that math is beautiful because it is the basis of science and science is the best hope of humanity.  So, I rest my case.

[JESSEFEFFER]

22 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So obviously I know what this all means, but maybe you should break it down for, uh, the other posters who, like, don’t get this….because again obviously I do

I think the purpose of this site is to look for meaningful and predictive tools at determining point spreads and looks for value vs. the "Vegas" number.  This says that Josh is the most valuable point spread QB (MVPS.)   I like many of the other things at the website.  It has the Bills at #2

5 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

That is a classic.  It should be mentioned by Josh's presenter at his Hall-of-Fame ceremony.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

Rayne Prescott? Learn something new every day. 

[dma0034]

13 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Rayne Prescott? Learn something new every day. 

 

I only found out about 2 weeks ago myself. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

The passing game has been quite pedestrian for a while now.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

What the hell is wrong with Josh Allen today?

 

He shouldn't even be in the conversation of MVP playing like the first half he played today. There's something wrong with that boy you can see it in his face.

Edited December 31, 2023 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

What the hell is wrong with Josh Allen today?

 

He shouldn't even be in the conversation of MVP playing like the first half he played today. There's something wrong with that boy you can see it in his face.

This appears to be Josh Allen.  Far too many WTF performances mixed in with excellence.   Today is another level of terrible though

Edited December 31, 2023 by SWATeam

[LABILLBACKER]

Just now, SWATeam said:

This appears to be Josh Allen.  Far to many WTF performances mixed in with excellence.   Today is another level of terrible though

Win or lose, any chance at an mvp ended today.  He looks lost.

[BigDingus]

2 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

What the hell is wrong with Josh Allen today?

 

He shouldn't even be in the conversation of MVP playing like the first half he played today. There's something wrong with that boy you can see it in his face.

 

It's his usual crumble in the big moment type of stuff... 

 

6 years in the league, and he still makes some of the worst decisions I've ever seen. We can talk about how talented he is all we want, but we can't manifest him into being a player he's not.

 

There's a reason he can't string together 2 straight games without an INT, and it's painful to watch.

[Ray Stonada]

Josh just played one of his worst career halves.

 

Meanwhile Lamar in the first half against Miami: 12 of 14 for 255 yards, 3 TDs 0 picks

[stevestojan]

I’m watching both games. Lamar is on another planet. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

You can look at him and see it in his face he looks lost. Doesn't even look like he's into the game. And this is coming from a quarterback that needs to win the game to go forward and get into the playoffs. I see no sense of urgency at all in him today. And it's a goddamn shame.

Edited December 31, 2023 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[Ray Stonada]

I seriously wonder if he was out late last night

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Josh just played one of his worst career halves.

 

Meanwhile Lamar in the first half against Miami: 12 of 14 for 255 yards, 3 TDs 0 picks

 

Yea. It is over unless Lamar screws up the 2nd half.