Justin Herbert's record after 52 starts vs others (couple former Bills show up)

[Doc Brown]

Herbert is the definition of why wins aren’t solely a qb stat.  Average weapons and a defense that’s overpaid relative to their performance.  Imagine Herbert on the 49ers, Eagles, or Dolphins.  They’d be putting up historic numbers.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Doc Brown

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So a few things on this...  

 

First, I have said consistently that even within games Justin Herbert is streaky. His 3rd Quarter stats in particular are poor and I see too many games of his where he goes into a strange lull. Kinda like we had with Josh in 2019... but that was Josh's second year. It isna recurring issue with Herbert that still shows itself. 

 

But second, I disagree his weapons are that great. He has two big slow guys and a scat back (a very good scat back but still). It was a major problem for the Chargers last year and has been so far this year.... they don't separate and the have nobody to get deep and take the top off. So defenses just sit on them. Allen is still a crafty route runner but is basically a big slot only at this point he offers almost no downfield threat outside. Mike Williams is Gabe Davis but with a top 10 draft tag. He is a big body, decent in the redzone and you can use him in physical 1v1s on the boundary. But I actually think Gabe offers more deep threat. They drafted Johnston who has 2 catches for 9 yards thus far... they need to try and incorporate him quickly because at least he offers some deep speed (though his game has other holes). And they drafted the wrong guy IMO. Tom Telesco likes big so it was always gonna be Johnston or Kincaid but they should have drafted Jordan Addison. He was the EXACT player that offense was crying out for.

 

He also has some of the worst coaching in the NFL. Brandon Staley is a defensive coach. And the Chargers have more 2023 cap dollars invested in defense than every other team in the league. For their defense to be this horrible with Bosa, Mack, Kendricks, Jackson and James is unforgiveable.

 

So yea Justin Herbert deserves some questioning. He hasn't yet taken that step from super talented playmaking QB to elite level performance QB but his weapons and his coaching are major issues. The one excuse he doesn't have is protection. That oline is stacked.

 

While I agree with most of what you are saying, your negative spin on his weapons is more reflective of THIS year than his previous years that make up the majority of his 52 starts.  Ekeler is a great RB, I watch a lot of him, he is a very good runner and receiver and doesn't get the credit he deserves IMHO as one of the better RB's overall in the NFL.  He does from the fantasy football community, but when people talk about the best backs in the league, he doesn't get as much recognition as he should IMHO.

 

And what you say about Allen is true THIS year...but Justin has been in the league since Allen was in his prime.  So, while you are not wrong on Allen right now, your assessment is not a reflection of the whole 52 games they have played together where Allen was arguably a top 10, definitely top 15, WR for a period Justins career.  And I have felt Mike Williams was grossly over paid from the moment he got that contract, but...he is no slouch either.  And they have other supporting players around these guys who have been solid too over the years.

 

Point is, there are a lot of QB's working with a lot less than Justin has been working with who have amassed better records than him and reached the playoffs across the NFL.  And while coaching has certainly been an issue, Herbert has also not been a guy who has gotten it done either when it mattered despite having enough talent on that team to do it.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Herbert is the definition of why wins aren’t solely a qb stat.  Average weapons and a defense that’s overpaid relative to their performance.  Imagine Herbert on the 49ers, Eagles, or Dolphins.  They’d be putting up historic numbers.

Average weapon lol

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think the weapons are as good as the names suggest, Eckler apart, and then it comes down to @BADOLBILZ's point about even when you have a really good receiving back if you have an offense designed to throw to your receiving back a ton that is going to turn you into a dink and dunk offense whether you wanna be or not. Eckler's average yards per reception was a pitiful 6.7 yards last year (he was pretty high on that metric earlier in his career). Compare that to Cole Beasley's first two years as Josh's "outlet" receiver here in the slot where he was over 11 yards per catch. If your outlet receiver is a back rather than a slot or tight end it almost always means you are sacrificing yardage. 

 

Here is the counter point:  KC produces about 30% of their offense from passes near or behind the LOS.  No one calls them a dink and dunk offense, its a highly effective part of their offensive design.  

 

And while I don't disagree that Chargers tend to use Ekeler a lot as a dump off option, that is more of OC issue and offensive design problem than say a limitation in Ekelers ability or decline in his skills as a RB IMHO.

 

In the couple posts I have read so far of yours here, you seem to talk more on the recent state of his weapons rather than the quality of his weapons of his career when guys like Allen were in their prime.  I mean he has been a top 15, and arguably top 10, WR most of his career and Ekeler has certainly been a top 10 RB (arguably top 5 at times) and one of the best receiving backs since becoming a feature RB.  

 

And I don't really disagree about your assessment today per se, but there is no way we can say Justin has not had enough to work with to post a winning record over 52 games or make the playoffs.  

 

Here is a fun question:  Do the Chargers have a winning record and at least reach the playoffs had Mahomes had been the QB over those 52 games?  What about Allen?  Burrow?  Rogers?  I have a hard time seeing any of those QB's post a losing record over 52 games with those players to work with on offense, bad coaching and all.  

 

So for me:  His weapons are not a viable excuse for his losing record.  Lesser QB's have done more with less. 

 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is the counter point:  KC produces about 30% of their offense from passes near or behind the LOS.  No one calls them a dink and dunk offense, its a highly effective part of their offensive design.  

 

And while I don't disagree that Chargers tend to use Ekeler a lot as a dump off option, that is more of OC issue and offensive design problem than say a limitation in Ekelers ability or decline in his skills as a RB IMHO.

 

In the couple posts I have read so far of yours here, you seem to talk more on the recent state of his weapons rather than the quality of his weapons of his career when guys like Allen were in their prime.  I mean he has been a top 15, and arguably top 10, WR most of his career and Ekeler has certainly been a top 10 RB (arguably top 5 at times) and one of the best receiving backs since becoming a feature RB.  

 

And I don't really disagree about your assessment today per se, but there is no way we can say Justin has not had enough to work with to post a winning record over 52 games or make the playoffs.  

 

Here is a fun question:  Do the Chargers have a winning record and at least reach the playoffs had Mahomes had been the QB over those 52 games?  What about Allen?  Burrow?  Rogers?  I have a hard time seeing any of those QB's post a losing record over 52 games with those players to work with on offense, bad coaching and all.  

 

So for me:  His weapons are not a viable excuse for his losing record.  Lesser QB's have done more with less. 

 

Idk what the Chargers were thinking letting Hunter Henry go. He is ALWAYS productive and imo that’s a stable of weapons that would’ve helped Herbert even more.

 

The main thing you are missing though Alpha, is that as Herbert’s weapons have broken down around him, he has won more. 6 wins to 9 wins to 10 wins over the last 3 seasons. So, as the talent has decreased around him, Herbert has had to compensate more and win MORE games. 
 

To your point that would Allen/Mahomes have won more, yes of course. But he isn’t Allen or Mahomes or Burrow. Those are the 3 best QBs in football.

53 minutes ago, ganesh said:

'great' at the beginning of the sentence and 'overrated' at the end of the sentence !!! 

 

Herbert and team are being held back by their coaching staff's inability; somewhat similar in trajectory (but less) are the Bills !

The Bills Mafia would kill to have Allen or Williams run routes with Diggs !

No way bro. Staley ain’t even in the same stratosphere as the Bills’ coaches.

[Alphadawg7]

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done...he can amass stats, but he has trouble winning IMHO.

 

Let me ask you this...do you believe the Chargers have the same losing record had Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Rogers been the QB over those 52 games and no playoff appearances?  If you honestly think yes they do have the same record (or worse), then sure the defense can be the excuse.  But if not, then its not a strong enough excuse to dismiss the fact he has not made the playoffs and has a sub .500 record after 52 games.  

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done...he can amass stats, but he has trouble winning IMHO.

 

Let me ask you this...do you believe the Chargers have the same losing record had Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Rogers been the QB over those 52 games and no playoff appearances?  If you honestly think yes they do have the same record (or worse), then sure the defense can be the excuse.  But if not, then it’s not a strong enough excuse to dismiss the fact he has not made the playoffs and has a sub .500 record after 52 games.  

Is the whole point of your topic that Justin Herbert isn’t as good as Allen or Mahomes? There are about 29 other QB’s who also aren’t as good as them.

[Buffalo Junction]

5 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Oh, it's not just putrid coaching.   That would be too simple to account for the continual ineptitude of the Chargers over the last two decades.  Back in the early 2000s, the Chargers were loaded with talent, thanks especially to the Eli Manning trade.  They didn't have just a great QB in Philip Rivers, they had two, and the one they let walk away, Drew Brees, was even better.  They could steamroll teams during the regular season but couldn't win playoff games despite having plenty of talent.  For most of Rivers' career, the Chargers managed to lose key games with the same kind of blunders that they've made this season.  They've been doing it for 20 years.  The Chargers have changed players, coaches, GMs, cities, owners, stadiums -- and they still manage to "seize defeat from the jaws of victory".   The Chargers just "Charger".

You can probably add another 10 years to that. They’ve been Chargering since the Bobby Ross era. 

[Einstein]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done

 

Herbert had 383 yards and 3 TD's in that game, and put up 32 points!

 

The Chargers tied up the game with a little under 5 minutes remaining and then his terrible defense allowed a 4 minute and 30 second drive that literally took the game down to 0's on the clock as the Raiders kicked a field goal.

 

How is that Herberts fault?

 

The last three times Herbert had the ball was Touchdown, Touchdown, Field goal.

[Albany,n.y.]

40 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done...he can amass stats, but he has trouble winning IMHO.

 

Let me ask you this...do you believe the Chargers have the same losing record had Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Rogers been the QB over those 52 games and no playoff appearances?  If you honestly think yes they do have the same record (or worse), then sure the defense can be the excuse.  But if not, then its not a strong enough excuse to dismiss the fact he has not made the playoffs and has a sub .500 record after 52 games.  

If the Chargers had the other QBs you mentioned (except Burrow who came in the same time as Herbert), Anthony Lynn would still be their head coach & Staley would be making boneheaded decisions elsewhere.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Albany,n.y.

[Utah John]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Saw this stat earlier tonight about Justin Herberts record after 52 games.  And this is a guy making $262.5M and that since entering the NFL he has had a potent stable of weapons including Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and more.

 

These are some of the QB's who have better records than him after 52 starts:

 

Mark Sanchez:  31-21

Andy Dalton:  31-21

Mitch Trubisky:  29-23

Carson Wentz:  28-24

Teddy Bridgewater:  28-24

Baker Mayfield:  27-25

Matt Cassel:  27-25

Tyrod Taylor:  26-25-1

______________________________

Justin Herbert:  25-27

 

I know that W/L records are not all on a QB...but that is a pretty pitiful record for a guy making $262.5M and playing with the kind of weapons he has had around him.  

 

Just sayin'

Not one of those QBs or any other QBs played defense.  I think we put too much emphasis on a QB's personal WL record.

 

The Chargers have allowed 63 points in two games, the worst mark in the AFC. But they've scored 58, and only Miami with 60 has scored more (in the AFC).  So now they're 0-2 and I think that indicates the problems are more with coaching and the defense than with the offense.  You know, the side Herbert plays on.

 

All that said, I'm not convinced at all that he's at the same level as Mahomes or Allen.  He plays in the LA market so he'll have lots of people supporting him -- until maybe the day comes when he's got a lot of people wanting him gone.  He's more of a game manager with a great arm, than a determined leader who finds ways to win. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Keenan Allen is on pace for 120 catches 1600 yards and 17tds

 

Yea. He won't get that.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done...he can amass stats, but he has trouble winning IMHO.

 

Let me ask you this...do you believe the Chargers have the same losing record had Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Rogers been the QB over those 52 games and no playoff appearances?  If you honestly think yes they do have the same record (or worse), then sure the defense can be the excuse.  But if not, then its not a strong enough excuse to dismiss the fact he has not made the playoffs and has a sub .500 record after 52 games.  

 

That game is a CLASSIC example of a Justin Herbert game. He had a strange lull in the 3rd and early 4th then played fantastic in the clutch. And his D didn't back him up. 

 

On your weapons point.... I think it applies to 2022 and 2023. I accept it applied less to 2020 and 2021. 

 

On the other QBs point... I think they'd have all done better. They are better Quarterbacks (or Rodgers was for two of those years). That is different than thinking Herbert is the main reason for the Chargers disappointing record. As I said earlier he is ON the list of reasons. He isn't the top of it.

 

 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

The Chargers HAVE ALWAYS had good teams and nothing beyond that. Greatness eludes them and I believe that it has a lot to do with the Spanos family. They have won several division titles over the years under two GMs, Bobby Beathard and A. J. Smith., but beyond those two they have won zero championships despite having talented teams. Their coaching hires have been terrible for the most part, and of course they unceremoniously fired Marty Schottenheimer after a 14-2 season and losing to the PATRIOTS of all teams in the playoffs.

 

Dean Spanos, like his father, blunders through seasons gathering pieces but never using them properly. It's abysmal. Herbert isn't the problem, the Spanos family is...

Edited September 22, 2023 by EasternOHBillsFan

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is how QBs rank in the NFL

1. Josh Allen

2. Brock Purdy

3. Justin Sherbert

4. Trevor Lawrence

5. Kermit

[Matt_In_NH]

The coach will soon pay the price.

[Southern_Bills]

16 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Tua > Herbert?

 

 

 

Tua is a decent QB with great weapons and a really good offensive scheme. 

 

Though I do believe Herbert will always find a way to lose.

[ExiledInIllinois]

10 hours ago, Pete said:

The Chargers are an enigma wrapped in a riddle to me.  They are loaded with talent.  Herbert looks great every time I’ve seen him.  He checks all the QB boxes.  The Chargers should be a Super Bowl contender.  But instead they are a jet plane that cannot take off

They DO play KC twice...

 

 

[mannc]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Did you watch the Chargers game when they were in a win and you are in position against the Raiders?  Herbert didn't get the job done...he can amass stats, but he has trouble winning IMHO.

 

Bad example…that was Herbert’s best game as a pro…like saying Josh Allen “didn’t get it done” in the 13 seconds game.

[PBF81]

And yet, he's 2-3 against KC. 

 

The rankings of Justin Herbert's Defenses:

 

23rd

29th

21st

30th so far

 

There could be at least some correlation.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by PBF81

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

To your point that would Allen/Mahomes have won more, yes of course. But he isn’t Allen or Mahomes or Burrow. Those are the 3 best QBs in football.

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

While I agree with most of what you are saying, your negative spin on his weapons is more reflective of THIS year than his previous years that make up the majority of his 52 starts.  Ekeler is a great RB, I watch a lot of him, he is a very good runner and receiver and doesn't get the credit he deserves IMHO as one of the better RB's overall in the NFL.  He does from the fantasy football community, but when people talk about the best backs in the league, he doesn't get as much recognition as he should IMHO.

 

And what you say about Allen is true THIS year...but Justin has been in the league since Allen was in his prime.  So, while you are not wrong on Allen right now, your assessment is not a reflection of the whole 52 games they have played together where Allen was arguably a top 10, definitely top 15, WR for a period Justins career.  And I have felt Mike Williams was grossly over paid from the moment he got that contract, but...he is no slouch either.  And they have other supporting players around these guys who have been solid too over the years.

 

Point is, there are a lot of QB's working with a lot less than Justin has been working with who have amassed better records than him and reached the playoffs across the NFL.  And while coaching has certainly been an issue, Herbert has also not been a guy who has gotten it done either when it mattered despite having enough talent on that team to do it.  

last year both Allen and Williams were hurt as well as Herbert himself. 
 

that made up a lot of his 50 game career 

 

 

[Tierlifer]

Herbert and the Chargers might be overrated but one thing that is not are their uniforms. 

[Alphadawg7]

To be clear, I am not dumping on Herbert to say he isn't a good QB...but it does irk me quite a bit when I see people listing Herbert ahead of Allen on who is the better QB like I saw after week 1 Jets game.  

 

But I really only started this thread more out of surprise to see that he didn't even have a winning record despite having enough talent around him that it feels like he should have.  Its one thing they haven't made the playoffs yet in a tough AFC conference, but just had not realized he didn't even have a winning record.

[PatsFanNH]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Saw this stat earlier tonight about Justin Herberts record after 52 games.  And this is a guy making $262.5M and that since entering the NFL he has had a potent stable of weapons including Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and more.

 

These are some of the QB's who have better records than him after 52 starts:

 

Mark Sanchez:  31-21

Andy Dalton:  31-21

Mitch Trubisky:  29-23

Carson Wentz:  28-24

Teddy Bridgewater:  28-24

Baker Mayfield:  27-25

Matt Cassel:  27-25

Tyrod Taylor:  26-25-1

______________________________

Justin Herbert:  25-27

 

I know that W/L records are not all on a QB...but that is a pretty pitiful record for a guy making $262.5M and playing with the kind of weapons he has had around him.  

 

Just sayin'

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

18 hours ago, WMDman said:

I think he’s over rated but look at the coaches he’s had Anthony Lynn was awful and Staley might be worse

 

But Staley was the greatest thing since sliced bread when he was hired!

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

 

Maybe tell that to the people around here every year who criticize Beane and McD for investing cap space or draft picks into the defensive side of the ball who all seem to think and say "defense doesn't matter" lol. 

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

Herbert has absolutely not entered into 3rd best talk. Hurts has. 
 

currently I think the tiers are pretty consistently:

 

mahomes 

 

burrow-Allen-hurts

 

lawrence-lamar-tua

herbert floating back and forth here

 

Dak-cousins

 

sure you can find knee jerk people to support any opinion on any individual guy for attention and clicks (and I’m sure in randomly shooting this out I didn’t include everyone off the cuff) but generally there’s not a ton of widespread divergence from roughly that these days

 

And I don’t think that’s a terribly unfair area for herbert these days. Top 10 but not top 5?

53 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

To be clear, I am not dumping on Herbert to say he isn't a good QB...but it does irk me quite a bit when I see people listing Herbert ahead of Allen on who is the better QB like I saw after week 1 Jets game.  

 

But I really only started this thread more out of surprise to see that he didn't even have a winning record despite having enough talent around him that it feels like he should have.  It’s one thing they haven't made the playoffs yet in a tough AFC conference, but just had not realized he didn't even have a winning record.

almost no one doing genuine commentary is truly arguing that. 
 

Guys trying to manufacture hot takes for attention are the only ones and not even that many of them are taking the stance. There are likely more flat earthers than Herbert over Allen takes. 

[BruceVilanch]

18 hours ago, AuntieEm said:

And yet he got paid like he is a winning quarterback.  It's amazing that they paid him like he was a winner but I guess Chargers got a different definition for franchise qb.  One who plays to the script he's given.  Maybe that's why the Chargers moved to LA. For the easy access to actimg coaches to help their players excel in their roles as per the nfl script.  I'm sure they will be in the running for some soon to be  top qb in upcoming drafts.  Then they'll be allowed to trade this loser to a real needy franchise with more of a winning history.  Maybe Washington after theý get their next hc and new gm following new ownership making the changes?  I know Snyder really ran the skins into a losing culture for as once solidly run franchise. Once there he will be able to at least partially improve might not be given a winners script they may just let him play out his contract then get a future rookie prospect to rinse repeat as the nfl writes its new scripts. 

 

 

Sounds like you got the script all mapped out!

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

Well by the same token, if you want to make an Allen/Herbert comparison, Herbert has the far worse coaching staff. I think everyone would agree. 
 

The Chargers are somehow WORSE than the sum of their parts which, at the NFL level, usually means coaching ineptitude. I would go as so far as to say that if you switched Staley and McD, we would probably very similar teams. That’s how bad Staley is.

 

And a lot of folks give Herbert slack for having a bad HC. Some give him too much, in my opinion. But if you want to know the reason why Herbert hasn’t had MORE success than he has had, coaching is #1, #2 and #3 on the list.

[SoTier]

14 hours ago, uninja said:

 

That 2010 Chargers squad is the proverbial case study for why special teams play DOES matter.

 

That was the season that they ran through multiple kickers because whoever was kicking for them always seemed to miss a PAT or FG in a close game IIRC. 

 

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Herbert is the definition of why wins aren’t solely a qb stat.  Average weapons and a defense that’s overpaid relative to their performance.  Imagine Herbert on the 49ers, Eagles, or Dolphins.  They’d be putting up historic numbers.

 

Agree.  Conversely, my guess is that if Mahomes, Allen or Burrow were on the Chargers, their win-lost records would only be marginally better than Herbert's.   The Chargers' problems over at least the last 2 decades haven't been the fault of their QBs -- their FOs have always been able to find good QBs even if they figure out much else.

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

 

They have the most expensive defense in the NFL. They know defense matters. They are just bad at it.

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Herbert has absolutely not entered into 3rd best talk. Hurts has. 
 

currently I think the tiers are pretty consistently:

 

mahomes 

 

burrow-Allen-hurts

 

lawrence-lamar-tua

herbert floating back and forth here

 

Dak-cousins

 

sure you can find knee jerk people to support any opinion on any individual guy for attention and clicks (and I’m sure in randomly shooting this out I didn’t include everyone off the cuff) but generally there’s not a ton of widespread divergence from roughly that these days

 

And I don’t think that’s a terribly unfair area for herbert these days. Top 10 but not top 5?

almost no one doing genuine commentary is truly arguing that. 
 

Guys trying to manufacture hot takes for attention are the only ones and not even that many of them are taking the stance. There are likely more flat earthers than Herbert over Allen takes. 

 

Agree. I am honestly not seeing the sort of coverage @Alphadawg7 is talking about. But then I am not a great watcher of the talking head shows so maybe it is out there. 

 

Allen got a LOT of heat for the Jets game - much of it deserved. Any QB turning the ball over 4 times does. Even when a non-elite guy turns it over 4 times in a loss they get media heat so when a top level guy does it of course it is a story. But I didn't see a rush of people saying "Justin Herbert is better than him." Indeed, if Herbert had a 4 turnover game he'd be rinsed too.

[Sierra Foothills]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:46 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Tua > Herbert?

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

[FireChans]

43 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

Personally, I think Herbert’s talents are wasted a bit in his offense. I think in that Dolphins offense he would be even better than Tua. Alas.

[Sierra Foothills]

Just now, FireChans said:

Personally, I think Herbert’s talents are wasted a bit in his offense. I think in that Dolphins offense he would be even better than Tua. Alas.

 

Herbert having Tua's weapons and coaching is a scary thought indeed.

 

[PatsFanNH]

48 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

IMO you take Tua and put him on my Pats they are still 0-2, you take Herbert and do the same thing and they would be 2-0. I mean if you put Jones on the Dolphins, people be saying how amazing he is because of all the talent around him making it easy.. heck Waddle already said he thought Jones was a better QB than Tua (before he was drafted)

[Sierra Foothills]

5 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

IMO you take Tua and put him on my Pats they are still 0-2, you take Herbert and do the same thing and they would be 2-0. I mean if you put Jones on the Dolphins, people be saying how amazing he is because of all the talent around him making it easy.. heck Waddle already said he thought Jones was a better QB than Tua (before he was drafted)

 

I get your point and don't totally disagree though I'm not sure the Pats are 2-0 with Herbert... maybe 1-1?

 

Anyways I've been very impressed with Tua lately. He processes play very quickly and his ball placement is excellent.

 

He's definitely underwhelming physically but I think he understands the game in a way that most NFL QBs don't.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

Herbert gets a ton of his passer stats in garbage time and against teams the Chargers should beat.

If you ask Justin to make a big play..at a big moment…in a big game…he usually can’t 

[CircleTheWagons99]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:44 AM, FireChans said:

I think Justin Herbert is a great QB being held back by putrid coaching moreso than just about anyone else in the league, but I also think he’s overrated. 
 

It’s kind of a conundrum. 

I really believe the chargerz are cursed. 

[Sierra Foothills]

2 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

I really believe the chargerz are cursed. 

 

https://www.overtimeheroics.net/2023/09/23/the-chargers-are-a-cursed-a-disgusting-franchise-nfl-analyst-marvels-at-los-angeles-franchises-remarkable-misfortune-as-injuries-threaten-to-derail-season/#:~:text=They also discussed the Chargers' game plan and upcoming performance predictions.&text=During the talk show%2C Benjamin,man should put his heart.