12 Personnel--How much will it be used today and going forward?

[jahnyc]

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Use it every down if you want just put Sherfield in over Davis. Or better yet, put a FB on the field so we can actually run and let’s see some big boy 22. Or use Knox as that FB and go Knox out if the backfield 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[warrior9]

10 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

It's probably not but for all the people that don't like James Cook or think we need to upgrade:

 

Cook actually ranked eighth at the RB position in avoided tackle rate and earned 43 of 46 rushing yards after contact last week. The notion he doesn't avoid tacklers is nonsense. 

 

So hopefully a lot of 12 and a lot of featuring of him, again 

Edited September 17, 2023 by warrior9

[LyndonvilleBill]

I think it's good to have him on the field. A lot of people complain about rookies not being used. Especially early picks. 12, 22 or add a 6th OL. Doesn't matter to me, Just keep Crosby away from Josh.😁

[jethro_tull]

12 personnel is mainly used for running plays.  Some teams actually use 3 TEs. 

[HoofHearted]

9 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.

1 minute ago, jethro_tull said:

12 personnel is mainly used for running plays.  Some teams actually use 3 TEs. 

You must not have watched last week.

[BuffaloBillyG]

I don't know how much we will run it but I've got it on great authority that 60% of the time, it works. Everytime.

[KDIGGZ]

"hey dis is Paul from Cheektowaga callin. I hear da Bills are runnin dat 12 personnel so my question is why do dey still stink when they got 12 guys out there and da defense only got 11? I'll hang up and listen."

[jethro_tull]

5 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.

You must not have watched last week.

I did watch, not saying that is how the Bills use the 12 but how it is mainly used.   I think it can be used effectively on pass plays too.  

[Bob in STL]

15 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

It's probably not but for all the people that don't like James Cook or think we need to upgrade:

 

Cook actually ranked eighth at the RB position in avoided tackle rate and earned 43 of 46 rushing yards after contact last week. The notion he doesn't avoid tacklers is nonsense. 

 

So hopefully a lot of 12 and a lot of featuring of him, again 

 

It’s always about yards and moving the chains. . Breaking tackles is not always avoided tackles.  
 

I don’t care who plays, just get positive yards.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

It should be all the time, that’s where the Bills have invested their resources.

 

$10M per year for Knox and a 1st Rounder in Kincaid. 

[NewEra]

We didn’t trade up for Kincaid after paying knox 13m aav to sit one on the bench.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by NewEra

[warrior9]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

 

It’s always about yards and moving the chains. . Breaking tackles is not always avoided tackles.  
 

I don’t care who plays, just get positive yards.  

Ok, 43 of his 46 yards came after contact...... anything else? 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

24 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Use it every down if you want just put Sherfield in over Davis. Or better yet, put a FB on the field so we can actually run and let’s see some big boy 22. Or use Knox as that FB and go Knox out if the backfield 

I have been banging this drum all week.

 

No reason Gabe Davis has to be playing 95%+ snaps.

 

Not when blocking is the excuse given and this year (unlike 2022) there is another 6’0”+ who can block on the team.

 

These 2 catch, 30 yard performances need to be noticed and stopped. 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

Ok, 43 of his 46 yards came after contact...... anything else? 

Yes.  Cook had 12 carries for 46 yards,  3.8 yds/attempt.  Mediocre at best.  Since we have some “proof” that he got some yards after contact then look at the OL and the overall play execution.  It pretty much stinks.  
 

Kurt Warner already pointed out the poor route running by the Bills receivers in his video breakdown.  The Bills lack attention to details.  
 

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.  They wait for Allen to bail them out.  Very few are doing their 1/11th consistently.   
 

It won’t matter what formation we use unless they all execute their roles consistently.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bob in STL

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.

Its almost like the Bills had not considered the possibility a game could end in overtime Sunday. It was like the keystone cops. 

[warrior9]

27 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Yes.  Cook had 12 carries for 46 yards,  3.8 yds/attempt.  Mediocre at best.  Since we have some “proof” that he got some yards after contact then look at the OL and the overall play execution.  It pretty much stinks.  
 

Kurt Warner already pointed out the poor route running by the Bills receivers in his video breakdown.  The Bills lack attention to details.  
 

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.  They wait for Allen to bail them out.  Very few are doing their 1/11th consistently.   
 

It won’t matter what formation we use unless they all execute their role consistently.  

Where does this fall on Cook.....?

 

It doesn't. This is further proof that he wasn't the issue and actually garnered more than he should have? What is your point here? You are all over the place.

 

He had 3.8 yards per carry with blocking that stinks because he got all of his yards AFTER contact.... much better than mediocre. 

 

He didnt get "some yards" after contact.. he got basically ALL of his yards after contact.

[Franco_92]

Since apparently the raiders also love dropping everyone deep we should use it a lot.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

 

It wasn't truly 12 personnel though like in the traditional sense...they count it every time Knox and Kincaid are on the field at same time.  But Kincaid most often was lined up as a WR and wasn't really being run like a traditional 12 personnel formation.  

 

So how many times we ran it is technically correct, but we used it as a Beanes says more like 11.5 personnel.  Essentially Kincaid is just a 3rd WR out there more than a 2nd TE.

[frostbitmic]

Kincaid will primarily be a slot receiver where Knox will primarily be helping Brown in not getting Josh killed.

 

Somebody will need help blocking Crosby on every play.

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We didn’t trade up for Kincaid after paying knox 13m aav to sit one on the bench.  

 

Agree said that all summer.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It wasn't truly 12 personnel though like in the traditional sense...they count it every time Knox and Kincaid are on the field at same time.  But Kincaid most often was lined up as a WR and wasn't really being run like a traditional 12 personnel formation.  

 

So how many times we ran it is technically correct, but we used it as a Beanes says more like 11.5 personnel.  Essentially Kincaid is just a 3rd WR out there more than a 2nd TE.

This is correct.

 

We ain’t running the Gronk/Hernandez twin TE sets. Which is why that “12 personnel so we can run or pass with mismatches” was garbage hype.
 

Kincaid is a big slot guy like Mike Gesicki. good player and I like him, but we are not running ANYTHING unique or novel with it. It’s the same old *****. 

[Bob in STL]

32 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Where does this fall on Cook.....?

 

It doesn't. This is further proof that he wasn't the issue and actually garnered more than he should have? What is your point here? You are all over the place.

 

He had 3.8 yards per carry with blocking that stinks because he got all of his yards AFTER contact.... much better than mediocre. 

 

He didnt get "some yards" after contact.. he got basically ALL of his yards after contact.

He didn’t beak any runs.  He didn’t make a difference. 
 

the whole offense was out of sync.  Until they fix that the team will depend on individuals to make the occasional big play, which is mostly on Allen,  and this is the way they played last season too.  
 

My point is the offense was bad.  blame the coaches, McD, Allen, all of them.  Cook did not make a difference.  If you think 3.8 per carry is good that’s your opinion.  I can’t remember him breaking a tackle so the fancy stats are nice but this one does not translate to what happened on the field.  I want more yards and then we can give the team the credit.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bob in STL

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

He didn’t beak any runs.  He didn’t make a difference. 
 

the whole offense was out of sync.  Until they fix that the team will depend on individuals to make the occasional big play, which is mostly on Allen and his the played last season.  
 

My point is the offense was bad.  blame the coaches, McD, Allen, all of them.  Cook did not make a difference.  If you think 3.8 per carry is good that’s your opinion.  I can’t remember him breaking a tackle so the fancy stats are nice but this one does not translate to what happened on the field.  I want more yards and then we can give the team the credit.  

The offense wasn’t really that bad going up against a great defense. Obviously, once Josh melted down the rest of the team followed.

[Bob in STL]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The offense wasn’t really that bad going up against a great defense. Obviously, once Josh melted down the rest of the team followed.

Good point on the Jets defense.   I can’t help but think this is not all on Allen but he sure made too many errors. . I look at the receiver route running, the pass pro, the lack of a running game.  
 

The offense is not finely tuned.   It’s like the way they ended last season.  The Jets had something to do with it.  

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.

You must not have watched last week.

 

Kincaid was lined up as a wr on most of his snaps. 

 

It's basically an 11 formation with a big slot receiver. Not much different about it schematically at all. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Bob in STL said:

The Bills lack attention to details.  

 

Tough to disagree with.  Coaching.  

 

It's also puzzling that every season we seem to deploy a new, at least to one or other extents, offenses.  

 

And of course Allen never has the receiving "tools" that he needs.  Apparently he needs the modern equivalent of Rice, Moss, and Gonzalez for some to think he has what he needs to be successful.  

 

 

[DrPJax]

29 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Yes.  Cook had 12 carries for 46 yards,  3.8 yds/attempt.  Mediocre at best.  Since we have some “proof” that he got some yards after contact then look at the OL and the overall play execution.  It pretty much stinks.  
 

Kurt Warner already pointed out the poor route running by the Bills receivers in his video breakdown.  The Bills lack attention to details.  
 

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.  They wait for Allen to bail them out.  Very few are doing their 1/11th consistently.   
 

It won’t matter what formation we use unless they all execute their role consistently.  

I just saw ALEX SMITH ON ESPN W TEDDY B (prior pat lb) and ALEX  broke down a few BILLS OFFENSIVE PLAYS.    It was absolutely a crap show; ALEX said he couldn’t even recognize what the BILLS WERE DOING, and one of those series was the one resulting in the punt and losing the game 

 

     The offensive line , including MORSE, looked unorganized and absolutely lost ,  as they outnumbered the jets lbs a few times with only 1 LB in the box. The bills attempted To run and MORSE WAS  DOUBLE TEAMING A GUY WHILE NOT TOUCHING THE SINGLE LB , who the RB then  couldn’t even make miss and was tackled for a loss. The run blocking scheme looked like there was no communication. This was repeated a couple of times, and ALEX called out the STAFF and offense , saying this was just not good enough and he couldn’t even decipher what was supposed to be going on.

     Then in that last series , he showed confused receivers, one stumbling to the ground and also on slo mo , the one pass where Diggs stumbled as the ball went right thru his hands. It was just to point out it wasn’t all on ALLEN   THE LARGE ISSUE HE WAS POINTING OUT was he showed blocking schemes that looked unrecognizable.   and a receiving corp who looked confused with routes,  unprepared, and in his opinion, JUST NOT WELL COACHED.   He was obviously defending ALLEN , and it appeared like ALLEN was not supported by an adequately prepped group of receivers. .  Don’t shoot me, it was just a min or two segment , but to have a QB like SMITH  saying the concepts were unrecognizable in his eyes,  is somewhat concerning given the struggles , lulls of the offense , and overall unimpressive trend the O has experienced the longer teams have had to dissect DORSEY and his offensive planning. MAYBE the team was not emotionally burned out in that CINCY GAME; MAYBE the poor coaching and preparation was finally more than talent could overcome?   Just asking!?  

     It just looked badly coached and MCD, DORSEY , AND THE O LINE COACHING seem to be INCAPABLE of consistently fielding a well prepared product on the field, and ALEX SMITH WASN'T SHY about calling them out. “ its just not good enough”, was his and BRUSCHI’S  FINAL TAKE. Fans keep expecting a dominant win and recovery from last week today, but SHOULD WE ASK , what really is that based on other than games now well over a year ago and IMO, THIS STAFF has not shown any impressive ability to get the best results out of the OFFENSE recently, and this team still seems to lack a dependable run game at least last week. Seeing the light boxes, we should have gashed that d running as they focused on not being beaten deep! I hope i misinterpreted SMITH , BUT HE BACKED IT UP SAYING THE RAIDERS WIN TODAY.  

’

 

      This is concerning for todays game with the raiders likely to be attacking BROWN, AND  i think JOSH IS now so preoccupied with mcd not wanting him to run, he has done a 180 and is now hesitant to take even open run lanes to keep moving the chains.  I think they are at least partly responsible for his play regression. 

 

    Like SMITH SAID, this is not good enough as a staff to have results like this showing up on film. SMITH AND REX BOTH PICKED THE RAIDERS TO WIN TODAY ;shows how little confidence THEY SEE IN THIS BILLS STAFF AFTER FILM BREAKDOWN.   I know everyone will jump on Rex being an idiot / blowhard , but when he was joined by SMITH and others picking jimmy G over the BILLS IN THEIR HOME OPENER AFTER AN EMBARRASSING LOSS, something just makes me wonder if issues are running deeper than we think.  Are we burying our heads about the teams last few games?  We will know shortly; I don’t think it will happen but if they struggle again, the talking heads may be on to something. Man, they are hyping jimmy g , but josh on espn now. These coaches talks with him are perhaps getting in his head too much. 

[warrior9]

5 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

He didn’t beak any runs.  He didn’t make a difference. 
 

the whole offense was out of sync.  Until they fix that the team will depend on individuals to make the occasional big play, which is mostly on Allen,  and this is the way they played last season too.  
 

My point is the offense was bad.  blame the coaches, McD, Allen, all of them.  Cook did not make a difference.  If you think 3.8 per carry is good that’s your opinion.  I can’t remember him breaking a tackle so the fancy stats are nice but this one does not translate to what happened on the field.  I want more yards and then we can give the team the credit.  

You were saying? 

[ColoradoBills]

5 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I just saw ALEX SMITH ON ESPN W TEDDY B (prior pat lb) and ALEX  broke down a few BILLS OFFENSIVE PLAYS.    It was absolutely a crap show; ALEX said he couldn’t even recognize what the BILLS WERE DOING, and one of those series was the one resulting in the punt and losing the game 

 

     The offensive line , including MORSE, looked unorganized and absolutely lost ,  as they outnumbered the jets lbs a few times with only 1 LB in the box. The bills attempted To run and MORSE WAS  DOUBLE TEAMING A GUY WHILE NOT TOUCHING THE SINGLE LB , who the RB then  couldn’t even make miss and was tackled for a loss. The run blocking scheme looked like there was no communication. This was repeated a couple of times, and ALEX called out the STAFF and offense , saying this was just not good enough and he couldn’t even decipher what was supposed to be going on.

     Then in that last series , he showed confused receivers, one stumbling to the ground and also on slo mo , the one pass where Diggs stumbled as the ball went right thru his hands. It was just to point out it wasn’t all on ALLEN   THE LARGE ISSUE HE WAS POINTING OUT was he showed blocking schemes that looked unrecognizable.   and a receiving corp who looked confused with routes,  unprepared, and in his opinion, JUST NOT WELL COACHED.   He was obviously defending ALLEN , and it appeared like ALLEN was not supported by an adequately prepped group of receivers. .  Don’t shoot me, it was just a min or two segment , but to have a QB like SMITH  saying the concepts were unrecognizable in his eyes,  is somewhat concerning given the struggles , lulls of the offense , and overall unimpressive trend the O has experienced the longer teams have had to dissect DORSEY and his offensive planning. MAYBE the team was not emotionally burned out in that CINCY GAME; MAYBE the poor coaching and preparation was finally more than talent could overcome?   Just asking!?  

     It just looked badly coached and MCD, DORSEY , AND THE O LINE COACHING seem to be INCAPABLE of consistently fielding a well prepared product on the field, and ALEX SMITH WASN'T SHY about calling them out. “ its just not good enough”, was his and BRUSCHI’S  FINAL TAKE. Fans keep expecting a dominant win and recovery from last week today, but SHOULD WE ASK , what really is that based on other than games now well over a year ago and IMO, THIS STAFF has not shown any impressive ability to get the best results out of the OFFENSE recently, and this team still seems to lack a dependable run game at least last week. Seeing the light boxes, we should have gashed that d running as they focused on not being beaten deep! I hope i misinterpreted SMITH , BUT HE BACKED IT UP SAYING THE RAIDERS WIN TODAY.  

’

 

      This is concerning for todays game with the raiders likely to be attacking BROWN, AND  i think JOSH IS now so preoccupied with mcd not wanting him to run, he has done a 180 and is now hesitant to take even open run lanes to keep moving the chains.  I think they are at least partly responsible for his play regression. 

 

    Like SMITH SAID, this is not good enough as a staff to have results like this showing up on film. SMITH AND REX BOTH PICKED THE RAIDERS TO WIN TODAY ;shows how little confidence THEY SEE IN THIS BILLS STAFF AFTER FILM BREAKDOWN.   I know everyone will jump on Rex being an idiot / blowhard , but when he was joined by SMITH and others picking jimmy G over the BILLS IN THEIR HOME OPENER AFTER AN EMBARRASSING LOSS, something just makes me wonder if issues are running deeper than we think.  Are we burying our heads about the teams last few games?  We will know shortly; I don’t think it will happen but if they struggle again, the talking heads may be on to something. Man, they are hyping jimmy g , but josh on espn now. These coaches talks with him are perhaps getting in his head too much. 

 

Your post has a lot of words in it.

 

How do you feel today?

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

You were saying? 

I will say that Cook played a great game today, his best ever as a Bill.  The entire offense played great today. 

[Chaos]

14 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

I will say that Cook played a great game today, his best ever as a Bill.  The entire offense played great today. 

This helps make all the recievers look good, and opens up the running game.  Drop that to a normal 70% completion rate and an INT (Mahomes line today), and the game would have looked much different 

[GreggTX]

If they're not going to throw to Kincaid, why bother? Is he playing poorly? Not getting open? Why did they trade up for him then? I thought he was having a strong camp. Then again, Harty really isn't that good either. Thank God we're usin Diggs, Knox and Davis well. I think it's just a matter of time before Allen starts trusting Kincaid more.

[Scott7975]

11 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

If they're not going to throw to Kincaid, why bother? Is he playing poorly? Not getting open? Why did they trade up for him then? I thought he was having a strong camp. Then again, Harty really isn't that good either. Thank God we're usin Diggs, Knox and Davis well. I think it's just a matter of time before Allen starts trusting Kincaid more.

 

There's only 1 ball to go around. He had 6 targets, 5 catches for 43 yards.  3rd highest on team behind Diggs and Davis.  What you want?

[BillMafia716ix]

2 games in and I don’t really see the benefit of it. Either play Knox or Kincaid and get more speed out there. Why did we sign Harty to a 2yr deal and sign Sherfield if we’re not going to use them? We have a lot of guys that Dorsey doesn’t know how to scheme into the system. 

[RyanC883]

I love using it.  While it's generally used to run, we can use it to run or pass.  Huge benefit.  Both TEs can catch, and Kincaid, well, attempts to block.  

[DCofNC]

31 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

I love using it.  While it's generally used to run, we can use it to run or pass.  Huge benefit.  Both TEs can catch, and Kincaid, well, attempts to block.  

I saw him get some good blocks in today, I was actually quite impressed vs what I expected from him.  He’s a lot further along than I expected in that respect.  He’s looking really good thus far.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Kincaid is on pace for 70+ receptions and 600 yards. Pretty good start. Think he has a lot of untapped potential we have yet to see

Edited September 18, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[DCofNC]

12 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Kincaid is on pace for 70+ receptions and 600 yards. Pretty good start. Think he has a lot of untapped potential we have yet to see

As of right now, you would have to think he will put pace that, he’s yet to break anything and he will eventually.  Considering it’s game 2 and he’s already this involved, I think he could easily do a little more.  80+ and 800 yards should be in reach.