12 Personnel--How much will it be used today and going forward?

[jahnyc]

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Use it every down if you want just put Sherfield in over Davis. Or better yet, put a FB on the field so we can actually run and let’s see some big boy 22. Or use Knox as that FB and go Knox out if the backfield 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[warrior9]

10 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

It's probably not but for all the people that don't like James Cook or think we need to upgrade:

 

Cook actually ranked eighth at the RB position in avoided tackle rate and earned 43 of 46 rushing yards after contact last week. The notion he doesn't avoid tacklers is nonsense. 

 

So hopefully a lot of 12 and a lot of featuring of him, again 

Edited September 17, 2023 by warrior9

[LyndonvilleBill]

I think it's good to have him on the field. A lot of people complain about rookies not being used. Especially early picks. 12, 22 or add a 6th OL. Doesn't matter to me, Just keep Crosby away from Josh.😁

[jethro_tull]

12 personnel is mainly used for running plays.  Some teams actually use 3 TEs. 

[HoofHearted]

9 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.

1 minute ago, jethro_tull said:

12 personnel is mainly used for running plays.  Some teams actually use 3 TEs. 

You must not have watched last week.

[BuffaloBillyG]

I don't know how much we will run it but I've got it on great authority that 60% of the time, it works. Everytime.

[KDIGGZ]

"hey dis is Paul from Cheektowaga callin. I hear da Bills are runnin dat 12 personnel so my question is why do dey still stink when they got 12 guys out there and da defense only got 11? I'll hang up and listen."

[jethro_tull]

5 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.

You must not have watched last week.

I did watch, not saying that is how the Bills use the 12 but how it is mainly used.   I think it can be used effectively on pass plays too.  

[Bob in STL]

15 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

It's probably not but for all the people that don't like James Cook or think we need to upgrade:

 

Cook actually ranked eighth at the RB position in avoided tackle rate and earned 43 of 46 rushing yards after contact last week. The notion he doesn't avoid tacklers is nonsense. 

 

So hopefully a lot of 12 and a lot of featuring of him, again 

 

It’s always about yards and moving the chains. . Breaking tackles is not always avoided tackles.  
 

I don’t care who plays, just get positive yards.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

It should be all the time, that’s where the Bills have invested their resources.

 

$10M per year for Knox and a 1st Rounder in Kincaid. 

[NewEra]

We didn’t trade up for Kincaid after paying knox 13m aav to sit one on the bench.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by NewEra

[warrior9]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

 

It’s always about yards and moving the chains. . Breaking tackles is not always avoided tackles.  
 

I don’t care who plays, just get positive yards.  

Ok, 43 of his 46 yards came after contact...... anything else? 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

24 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Use it every down if you want just put Sherfield in over Davis. Or better yet, put a FB on the field so we can actually run and let’s see some big boy 22. Or use Knox as that FB and go Knox out if the backfield 

I have been banging this drum all week.

 

No reason Gabe Davis has to be playing 95%+ snaps.

 

Not when blocking is the excuse given and this year (unlike 2022) there is another 6’0”+ who can block on the team.

 

These 2 catch, 30 yard performances need to be noticed and stopped. 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

Ok, 43 of his 46 yards came after contact...... anything else? 

Yes.  Cook had 12 carries for 46 yards,  3.8 yds/attempt.  Mediocre at best.  Since we have some “proof” that he got some yards after contact then look at the OL and the overall play execution.  It pretty much stinks.  
 

Kurt Warner already pointed out the poor route running by the Bills receivers in his video breakdown.  The Bills lack attention to details.  
 

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.  They wait for Allen to bail them out.  Very few are doing their 1/11th consistently.   
 

It won’t matter what formation we use unless they all execute their roles consistently.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bob in STL

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.

Its almost like the Bills had not considered the possibility a game could end in overtime Sunday. It was like the keystone cops. 

[warrior9]

27 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Yes.  Cook had 12 carries for 46 yards,  3.8 yds/attempt.  Mediocre at best.  Since we have some “proof” that he got some yards after contact then look at the OL and the overall play execution.  It pretty much stinks.  
 

Kurt Warner already pointed out the poor route running by the Bills receivers in his video breakdown.  The Bills lack attention to details.  
 

More and more this is looking like a team that lacks preparation on the fine details of the game.  They wait for Allen to bail them out.  Very few are doing their 1/11th consistently.   
 

It won’t matter what formation we use unless they all execute their role consistently.  

Where does this fall on Cook.....?

 

It doesn't. This is further proof that he wasn't the issue and actually garnered more than he should have? What is your point here? You are all over the place.

 

He had 3.8 yards per carry with blocking that stinks because he got all of his yards AFTER contact.... much better than mediocre. 

 

He didnt get "some yards" after contact.. he got basically ALL of his yards after contact.

[Franco_92]

Since apparently the raiders also love dropping everyone deep we should use it a lot.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, jahnyc said:

I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today.  It was used 66% of the time against the Jets.  The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons.  I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project.  I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development?  Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package?  I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking.  Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths.  Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?

 

It wasn't truly 12 personnel though like in the traditional sense...they count it every time Knox and Kincaid are on the field at same time.  But Kincaid most often was lined up as a WR and wasn't really being run like a traditional 12 personnel formation.  

 

So how many times we ran it is technically correct, but we used it as a Beanes says more like 11.5 personnel.  Essentially Kincaid is just a 3rd WR out there more than a 2nd TE.

[frostbitmic]

Kincaid will primarily be a slot receiver where Knox will primarily be helping Brown in not getting Josh killed.

 

Somebody will need help blocking Crosby on every play.