Trade Candidates?

[Warriorspikes51]

Basham and a depth OL maybe get a 6th and a 7th 

[4BillsintheBurgh]

I'm good with more late round picks since we don't get a good crack at priority UDFAs anymore. I think Beane likes to get them too in lieu of comp picks. More better.

 

I was surprised Settle was listed as the backup DT with Ford behind him, thought maybe we are shining Settle up for a trade. Seems like plenty of other guys can share snaps at DT. Might be able to get something for an IOL, Beane's pulled some stuff out of his arse in past years.

[OldTimer1960]

I am pretty surprised at the number of negative comments I got for suggesting that Kaiir Elam is trending to a disappointment.  I am not usually a negative poster, particularly regarding young guys.  
 

However, Elam was specifically drafted in round 1 because they wanted better than Jackson opposite Tre White.  The fact that he hasn’t run away with the job against a guy they obviously wanted to replace has to be at least a bit of a concern.  
 

I certainly hope that Elam goes on to be a great player, but if he can’t beat out Jackson, it would have to be a disappointment and waste of a 1st round pick.

 

I am rooting for Elam to be very good.

Edited August 11, 2023 by OldTimer1960

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I am pretty surprised at the number of negative comments I got for suggesting that Kaiir Elam is trending to a disappointment.  I am not usually a negative poster, particularly regarding young guys.  
 

However, Elam was specifically drafted in round 1 because they wanted better than Jackson opposite Tre White.  The fact that he hasn’t run away with the job against a guy they obviously wanted to replace has to be at least a bit of a concern.  
 

I certainly hope that Elam goes on to be a great player, but if he can’t beat out Jackson, it would have to be a disappointment and waste of a 1st round pick.

 

I am rooting for Elam to be very good.

 

My issue is more with the staff/philosophy than it is with Elam.  

 

I understand his issues in practice and/or with zone coverage, but I've seen him play in games... in the biggest games of the year... and he held his own and made big plays.  

 

That's all I, as a fan of this team, can go off of.  

 

And all I can go off of was pretty darn good for a rookie cornerback. 

[OldTimer1960]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

My issue is more with the staff/philosophy than it is with Elam.  

 

I understand his issues in practice and/or with zone coverage, but I've seen him play in games... in the biggest games of the year... and he held his own and made big plays.  

 

That's all I, as a fan of this team, can go off of.  

 

And all I can go off of was pretty darn good for a rookie cornerback. 

I agree, I thought he played pretty well when given the chance last season.  Why he is still mired in a competition with Jackson and Benford is what I don’t understand.  There has to be something the coaches don’t like or trust about his game currently.

 

He is a willing, but not great tackler, so perhaps that is working against him, but they really aren’t tackling in camp so what don’t the coaches like?

Edited August 11, 2023 by OldTimer1960

[Punching Bag]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:44 AM, Herb Nightly said:

Maybe a disappointment to YOU. Did you see him play last year? Yes,he has to adjust to the Bills zone D but corners can take 2 or 3 years to develop.

Next question; would you be comfortable with the remaining depth? Are you ready to put Austin or Ingram or Lewis there? 

I think the Bills have a good CB group that will be needed to defend 3,4 WR alignments. 

 

Not necessarily.  He is reportedly a very good man-to-man CB so Bills could mix coverage having Kaiir Elam be designated to cover top WR or TE on opposition team while rest of team plays zone.  Having Coach McD as DC makes that more likely.

[OldTimer1960]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

Not necessarily.  He is reportedly a very good man-to-man CB so Bills could mix coverage having Kaiir Elam be designated to cover top WR or TE on opposition team while rest of team plays zone.  Having Coach McD as DC makes that more likely.

I think he’s shown to be decent at man.  Are you suggesting a platoon where he plays when D wants to go man and Jackson plays when they go zone?

[Punching Bag]

12 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I think he’s shown to be decent at man.  Are you suggesting a platoon where he plays when D wants to go man and Jackson plays when they go zone?

 

No I think each week defense plan should be neutralize #1 WR of opposition putting Elam on that player or players if more than one warrant.  Defense needs to be prepared for offense running WR thru defense trying to get picks.

[OldTimer1960]

8 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

No I think each week defense plan should be neutralize #1 WR of opposition putting Elam on that player or players if more than one warrant.  Defense needs to be prepared for offense running WR thru defense trying to get picks.

I agree that turnovers are probably more important than continuous bend but don’t break.  
 

I think it’s a little optimistic to think they would choose Elam to play man against opponent’s best instead of using White for that.  Still, I understand what you’re getting at and I hope that it’s right.

 

My big question is why can’t a talented man cover guy who works hard learn to play great zone D?  I have to think that zone is easier than man coverage.  Is that wrong?

[Punching Bag]

46 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I agree that turnovers are probably more important than continuous bend but don’t break.  
 

I think it’s a little optimistic to think they would choose Elam to play man against opponent’s best instead of using White for that.  Still, I understand what you’re getting at and I hope that it’s right.

 

My big question is why can’t a talented man cover guy who works hard learn to play great zone D?  I have to think that zone is easier than man coverage.  Is that wrong?

 

Man coverage is easier for players to learn and is the defense they teach in most colleges.

Players in college are given scholarships based on athletic ability and on most college defenses 

Zone is defense which makes play think and is not one which fits all players and takes a lot of time and reps to learn.

It is why players who have less athletic talent can sometimes outplay players with more - you often hear about a  "Coach's kid" excelling in it.

 

Elam is a better corner for matching man-to-man partly due to size and he played man-to-man almost exclusively in college. 

To get best value out of first round pick they need to not try to fit a square peg into a round hole too quick.

 

[Manther]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:45 PM, ColoradoBills said:

 

No.  Last year there was only a dozen or so.  There never is a whole lot.  That's what has made Beane a bit of a legend for pulling some off.

I don't expect one, but you never know.  A Quess or Settle trade would probably garner interest from a few teams.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/transactions/2022/trade/

I am going to throw it out there.  I think Beane pulls of two trades before the season starts.  If I were to guess, I would say Boogie Basham and an O linemen.

[OldTimer1960]

16 minutes ago, Manther said:

I am going to throw it out there.  I think Beane pulls of two trades before the season starts.  If I were to guess, I would say Boogie Basham and an O linemen.

Basham is a possibility- he may still have a little trade value and I think he is stuck behind some really good DEs.

 

I can’t think of any OL that they would consider trading that any other team wants.  

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Manther said:

I am going to throw it out there.  I think Beane pulls of two trades before the season starts.  If I were to guess, I would say Boogie Basham and an O linemen.

 

If he does, I hope they are good trades with good returns!

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Basham is a possibility- he may still have a little trade value and I think he is stuck behind some really good DEs.

 

I can’t think of any OL that they would consider trading that any other team wants.  

You would be surprised. Bad OL play is a problem around the league. Bothe Russell Bodine and Marshall Newhouse were trades for picks..all be it very late round 2 drafts down the road. But it is plausible. 

 

I can also see a team trading a guy the know won't make their team in a player for player deal for an OL we know won't make our. Sometimes you see that kind of trade the week before the last preseason game so teams can basically get a quick look at a different player.

[newcam2012]

I'm think Gabe Davis mid season could be a viable trade. A lot has to go right and wrong for it to happen. 

 

If he plays very well the Bills will likely be looking at a big contract to pay. Also, they might need him to make a big run at the SB. Unlikely he gets traded in this scenario. 

 

If Gabe plays poorly then there's a better chance he might get traded but for less value. 

 

If Gabe plays solid, decent, or average then the door is wide open for trade opportunities. I suspect this is the most likely occurrence. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by newcam2012

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I am pretty surprised at the number of negative comments I got for suggesting that Kaiir Elam is trending to a disappointment.

 

 

Hopefully you've learned your lesson.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

10 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I agree, I thought he played pretty well when given the chance last season.  Why he is still mired in a competition with Jackson and Benford is what I don’t understand.  There has to be something the coaches don’t like or trust about his game currently.

 

He is a willing, but not great tackler, so perhaps that is working against him, but they really aren’t tackling in camp so what don’t the coaches like?

Deion Sanders wasn't a great tackler, but is considered the GOAT at CB

[GunnerBill]

14 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I agree, I thought he played pretty well when given the chance last season.  Why he is still mired in a competition with Jackson and Benford is what I don’t understand.  There has to be something the coaches don’t like or trust about his game currently.

 

He is a willing, but not great tackler, so perhaps that is working against him, but they really aren’t tackling in camp so what don’t the coaches like?

 

The thing they don't like or trust is his transitions in zone. I said it before we drafted him that it was my concern with him for our scheme. Beane said it in the post pick presser and it is still the thing that I think they don't trust. That is much more the factor than the run support tackling IMO. And it is the thing that showed up on the field. He gets too much depth, he looks a bit mechancial in transitoning from mirroring to closing, he is fast as a long strider (which helps him in man) but he doesn't have that quick twitch that for instance Tre at his best has. 

 

I think it means they just trust Jackson to execute the core techniques in their defense better on a down by down basis.

 

To me the answer is they need to get Elam on the field, worry far less about what he can't do, focus lots more on what he can do and use that skillset to the full. Because there are fewer corners in football who can do the things Kaiir can do. There are plenty more who can play good, fundamentally solid zone defense. If that means building a bit more man into what they ask of Kaiir or a bit more press at the line, or even using him inside in man against big slots and tight ends on occasion then do it. The kid had two very strong outings against Tyreek Hill as a rookie. And we are worried what that he might give up a few too many yards in zone coverage to Kendrick Bourne?

[Richard Noggin]

47 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The thing they don't like or trust is his transitions in zone. I said it before we drafted him that it was my concern with him for our scheme. Beane said it in the post pick presser and it is still the thing that I think they don't trust. That is much more the factor than the run support tackling IMO. And it is the thing that showed up on the field. He gets too much depth, he looks a bit mechancial in transitoning from mirroring to closing, he is fast as a long strider (which helps him in man) but he doesn't have that quick twitch that for instance Tre at his best has. 

 

I think it means they just trust Jackson to execute the core techniques in their defense better on a down by down basis.

 

To me the answer is they need to get Elam on the field, worry far less about what he can't do, focus lots more on what he can do and use that skillset to the full. Because there are fewer corners in football who can do the things Kaiir can do. There are plenty more who can play good, fundamentally solid zone defense. If that means building a bit more man into what they ask of Kaiir or a bit more press at the line, or even using him inside in man against big slots and tight ends on occasion then do it. The kid had two very strong outings against Tyreek Hill as a rookie. And we are worried what that he might give up a few too many yards in zone coverage to Kendrick Bourne?

 

Following you around here because this is interesting discourse. Could the reluctance to just insert Elam into the defense and adapt schemes to his strengths have something to do with that making his presence on the field a "tell" for the offense? I mean, it sure seemed like the defense under Frazier lapsed often into VERY predictable schemes anyways, and McD's play-calling takeover hopefully hints at a shift towards a more multiple, matchup-focused approach...

 

We all mostly agree that in the playoffs, against high-end AFC offenses, Frazier's defenses seemed to lack the better answers necessary to frustrate those top attacks after putting an entire season on tape. If Kaiir Elam automatically = press man coverage, then that's one problem the QB and WR don't need to solve post-snap. Or in the case of Frazier's schemes, if the Bills D almost always = off-coverage/cushion and light boxes, then that's even more problems the QB and WRs have easy answers to. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Following you around here because this is interesting discourse. Could the reluctance to just insert Elam into the defense and adapt schemes to his strengths have something to do with that making his presence on the field a "tell" for the offense? I mean, it sure seemed like the defense under Frazier lapsed often into VERY predictable schemes anyways, and McD's play-calling takeover hopefully hints at a shift towards a more multiple, matchup-focused approach...

 

We all mostly agree that in the playoffs, against high-end AFC offenses, Frazier's defenses seemed to lack the better answers necessary to frustrate those top attacks after putting an entire season on tape. If Kaiir Elam automatically = press man coverage, then that's one problem the QB and WR don't need to solve post-snap. Or in the case of Frazier's schemes, if the Bills D almost always = off-coverage/cushion and light boxes, then that's even more problems the QB and WRs have easy answers to. 

 

Certainly if they are only going to use him situationally. I think you have to get him out there more often as your starter and that doesn't mean you never use him in a zone look but you just tweak what you normally ask of that role towards his skillset more and you do use him less in the soft zone that they have tended to use for their CB2 to cover up that lack of traits that Levi and to a lesser extent Dane have.

[TBBills Fan]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:12 AM, ddaryl said:

 

 

 He still has value in the rotation and he is on a rookie contract, no I would not even consider trading him. UNLESS the deal is too goods to be true

Agree. We would regret that trade down the line

[gonzo1105]

Elam is going to get traded so they might as well do it now while there is still value and teams think they can develop him. 
 

Always thought he was going to bust and is a bad schematic fit on top but I still think in man he won’t be a great corner in the NFL 

[Rico]

24 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Elam is going to get traded so they might as well do it now while there is still value and teams think they can develop him. 
 

Always thought he was going to bust and is a bad schematic fit on top but I still think in man he won’t be a great corner in the NFL 

Way too soon. #1 & 2 CBs next year could very well be Elam and Dane, no guarantee Tre is still on the team in 2024.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Rico said:

Way too soon. #1 & 2 CBs next year could very well be Elam and Dane, no guarantee Tre is still on the team in 2024.

 

And Dane isn't under contract for 2024. Could be Elam and Benford.

[NC-billsfan!]

16 minutes ago, Rico said:

Way too soon. #1 & 2 CBs next year could very well be Elam and Dane, no guarantee Tre is still on the team in 2024.

Why would you say that? He’s signed until 2025. Just curious, do you think we will trade or cut him? Cheers.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, NC-billsfan! said:

Why would you say that? He’s signed until 2025. Just curious, do you think we will trade or cut him? Cheers.

 

If Tre isn't back to something like himself they will cut him after 2023. He can save them up to $10m in space.

[NC-billsfan!]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Tre isn't back to something like himself they will cut him after 2023. He can save them up to $10m in space.

Gotcha? Yeah I have a different take, seems he’s back by all accounts. I think he took a year to trust his knee. I had a knee injury and it took a long time not to think about it. I think he’s a lock.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

They’re playing the long game with Elam. He can start now but Dane Jackson has less mistakes. Elam will start at some point. 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, NC-billsfan! said:

Gotcha? Yeah I have a different take, seems he’s back by all accounts. I think he took a year to trust his knee. I had a knee injury and it took a long time not to think about it. I think he’s a lock.

 

If he is back to anything close to his best he is a lock. Fingers crossed that is the case.

[gonzo1105]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Way too soon. #1 & 2 CBs next year could very well be Elam and Dane, no guarantee Tre is still on the team in 2024.

You may think that but I didn’t think he was great in college and he played man there predominantly. It’s clear McDermott and staff don’t trust him. 
 

It doesn’t matter what the depth looks like if the coaching staff can’t trust him on the field. He wouldn’t be a starter still in that scenario unless his game is severely elevated and I don’t see it happening. 

[Rico]

53 minutes ago, NC-billsfan! said:

Why would you say that? He’s signed until 2025. Just curious, do you think we will trade or cut him? Cheers.

Cap casualty if they need $ and there isn’t much drop-off between the other CBs and him.

10 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

You may think that but I didn’t think he was great in college and he played man there predominantly. It’s clear McDermott and staff don’t trust him. 
 

It doesn’t matter what the depth looks like if the coaching staff can’t trust him on the field. He wouldn’t be a starter still in that scenario unless his game is severely elevated and I don’t see it happening. 

You may be right, I’m just not ready to write him off yet. We’ll see.

[stinky finger]

7 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

You may think that but I didn’t think he was great in college and he played man there predominantly. It’s clear McDermott and staff don’t trust him. 
 

It doesn’t matter what the depth looks like if the coaching staff can’t trust him on the field. He wouldn’t be a starter still in that scenario unless his game is severely elevated and I don’t see it happening. 

 

Trading Elam, a 1st rounder,  prior to his 2nd season would be quite an indictment on BB.

 

Elam isn't getting traded. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They’re playing the long game with Elam. He can start now but Dane Jackson has less mistakes. Elam will start at some point. 

Elam was extremely good last year in the playoffs.  

[John from Riverside]

All signs lead to boogie

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Tre isn't back to something like himself they will cut him after 2023. He can save them up to $10m in space.

IMO he will be fine and isn’t going anywhere.  He seemed extremely upbeat on the sideline yesterday and the guy is an absolute pro.

[BBFL]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Tre isn't back to something like himself they will cut him after 2023. He can save them up to $10m in space.

Do you think if the play quality from his return onward becomes a continuation this year, they try and trade him before value completely diminishes?

Or do you feel he has to just completely bomb to move on?

He’s a fan favorite but hanging onto players who just aren’t performing in a pivotal and vital role isn’t a recipe for success. 

[BillsShredder83]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:12 PM, noacls said:

Phillips: can't stay healthy 

Basham: underperformed 

Shaq: crowded deep DE pool

Could see 2 of the 3 being gone

Phillips should be used lightly in rotation until big division conference games, and then playoffs. he is absolutely the type of player you want in the playoffs coming in with a hot hand!  healthy hes a mini chris jones!

 

also, thankfully, i dont think Beane is in the camp of dealing a rd2 pick after only 2 seasons. cheap talent, with high upside. you develop a guy like that. let lawson go, but im not willing to voluntarily get weaker/more shallow in the trenches, especially DTs with potential to create pressure up the middle. WAY to valuable IMO 

 

if we cant develop guys like AJ & Boogie, then its a DL coach problem as much as its a player problem. always be developing, keep the pipeline loaded.... an absolute MUST as a team this good

Edited August 14, 2023 by BillsShredder83

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, BBFL said:

Do you think if the play quality from his return onward becomes a continuation this year, they try and trade him before value completely diminishes?

Or do you feel he has to just completely bomb to move on?

He’s a fan favorite but hanging onto players who just aren’t performing in a pivotal and vital role isn’t a recipe for success. 

i have no evidence, but gut feeling if he were to look bad enough this year to be a trade candidate, i could see him just hanging the cleats up.  strikes me as one of those retire at 28-29 if hes not playing well/having a blast anymore

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, BBFL said:

Do you think if the play quality from his return onward becomes a continuation this year, they try and trade him before value completely diminishes?

Or do you feel he has to just completely bomb to move on?

He’s a fan favorite but hanging onto players who just aren’t performing in a pivotal and vital role isn’t a recipe for success. 

 

They could. Would have to look at the deal to work how attractive a trade prospect he is for other teams.

Edited August 14, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Doc Brown]

10 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

Elam is going to get traded so they might as well do it now while there is still value and teams think they can develop him. 
 

Always thought he was going to bust and is a bad schematic fit on top but I still think in man he won’t be a great corner in the NFL 

I'd do it for a first round pick and their playbook so he can study it on the plane.

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Tre isn't back to something like himself they will cut him after 2023. He can save them up to $10m in space.

Which is why trading Elam is ludicrous (barring an unlikely first round pick offer) when we'd still have him for at least two more years on a cost controlled rookie deal if we do cut bait with Tre.