Allen stats compared to Peyton Manning 👀

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Not sure this is a true statement. You even say it yourself that the receivers were allowed Ro get mugged. They were bigger but a lot slower. Those linebackers wouldn’t be able to keep up with offenses today just like current linebackers would have to be able to handle more of a beating back in those days 

 

The 2000s is arguably the greatest era of linebackers ever.  I stand on that statement.  Safeties too.  

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

eh. It’s not like corners were ridiculously good in Peyton’s day compared to now.

 

More the safeties than the corners, but they were no slouches.  Hell, just on the Bills and Phins you had Clemments, Winfield, Surtain and Madison.  

[PrimeTime101]

6 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

We get it.  Josh is good, BUT it was a vastly different game in the late 90s-2000s and yes, Peyton threw a ton of pics early in his career.  

Just wondering... how many yards did peyton run a year?

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

We get it.  Josh is good, BUT it was a vastly different game in the late 90s-2000s and yes, Peyton threw a ton of pics early in his career.  

The game was different in the 90s...but in the last twenty years the game is more or less the same..QBs have elevated themselves;  starting from Manning brothers,  Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Rodgers  have all made it a QB driven league.  It is continuing with Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Dak etc.

7 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Just a reminder of how lucky we are. 1st ballot h.o.f QB 

The one missing stat here is the number of Fumbles and fumbles lost.  I think Josh has fumbled the ball a lot more than his contemporary QBs (due to the nature of his running game or holding on to the FB to make the big play).   It would be good to get that stats.

[Chaos]

7 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Josh is an insanely talented QB and we’re beyond lucky to have him on the Bills. He also leads the league in turnovers since 2020 and needs to do a much better job of taking care of the football. Both these things can be true.

More offensive plays run through Josh, than any other player in the NFL.  His turnover rate is fine. Allen is the only part of the Bills team who has no significant room for improved productivity. 

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, joshhasbighands said:

Josh has made mistakes but I saw a piece yesterday where they were saying Burrow threw 15 INTs last season, yet he is thought of for some reason as so much better than Josh by people in the media. I think Allen gets judged differently because of the pre draft talk around him and his issues. People who thought he'd be a bust will grudgingly admit he's good when they have no other choice (when he plays out of his mind) but every time he throws a pick they're right there with the same old Allen talk. 

 

I'm sort of glad he's not the media darling anymore because he's better with a chip on his shoulder. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him have an MVP year this season. But to shut these guys up he needs to win a Super Bowl and an MVP

I think people go by how we do in the playoffs...

Mahomes beat Burrow and Lawrence

Burrow beat Allen and Jackson 

Lawrence beat Herbert

Allen beat the Dolphins 3rd string QB

 

The way we got beat at home by the Bengals sticks a lot in the mind of media...We lost by 17 points at home when we were the favorites.  They man handled us at every point in the game.  A lot of the blame for that loss goes directly to how Josh played the game (fair or not).  

[billsfan89]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Not exactly the guy I'd compare him to but interesting

 

I didn't realize Manning threw that many picks early on

 

From 98 to 02 he was an INT machine. Obviously a lot of people were aware of his 28 INT's as a rookie which I think was the record for rookie year INT's. But the next 4 seasons he had 15 or more INT's including 23 in 2001 and 19 in 2002. Manning of course then settled into being much better with the ball only throwing 10 or less INT's from 2003-2006 his best years. 

[Mr. WEO]

Why though?

[gobills404]

4 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

Dabbol had Josh’s turnovers trending way down then Daboll left….

Allen’s turnover count has increased every year since 2019.

[Jay_Fixit]

10 hours ago, SMAKCruiser said:

 He threw a ton in his rookie year

Yes. And then 72 more to equal the 100 over his first 5 years.

[Nephilim17]

Comparing different eras with stats is almost futile.

 

What I am encouraged by, however, is that Manning went from throwing a lot of turnovers to becoming one of the most cerebral QBs in the game. I'm not saying Josh will become Peyton, but I have hope his football IQ and decision making can still improve substantially over the next couple of years.

[SoCal Deek]

Any chance they can get Josh to yell “Tonawanda” instead of “Omaha”? When he does, then you’ll really know he’s made it. 👍

[Ethan in Cleveland]

16 hours ago, joshhasbighands said:

Josh has made mistakes but I saw a piece yesterday where they were saying Burrow threw 15 INTs last season, yet he is thought of for some reason as so much better than Josh by people in the media. I think Allen gets judged differently because of the pre draft talk around him and his issues. People who thought he'd be a bust will grudgingly admit he's good when they have no other choice (when he plays out of his mind) but every time he throws a pick they're right there with the same old Allen talk. 

 

I'm sort of glad he's not the media darling anymore because he's better with a chip on his shoulder. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him have an MVP year this season. But to shut these guys up he needs to win a Super Bowl and an MVP

 Nobody thinks Burrow is that much better than Allen if at all. they all think however he has better wide receiver group then Allen does.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, wppete said:

Peyton Mannings arm doesn’t even compare to the rocket 🚀 arm Josh’s Allen has. 

 

 

Josh's is stronger. But before the injuries Peyton had one of the strongest arms in the league.

 

 

Excerpt from Polian's book:

 

"I began to focus on every pass in his career that traveled more than 40 yards and what I found out was that, once the ball got beyond 60 yards, he started losing accuracy.

 

"[The trainer] has an arm-strength drill whereby he stands the quarterback on the goal line and has a receiver facing him five yards away. The quarterback has to throw to the receiver using only his arm; he isn't allowed to step into his throw or use his feet in any way. And after each throw, the receiver moves back in 5-yard increments until he eventually reaches the 50-yard line....

 

"[The trainer] put Peyton through the arm-strength drill, and his pass to the 50-yard line was on a rope. Peyton's arm was among the strongest I have seen. It maybe was not quite as strong as Jim Kelly's, but certainly strong enough. Interestingly, Peyton threw what we call a 'heavy ball,' meaning it has a lot of rotation on it, which was quite interesting because guys with weaker arms usually don't throw a heavy ball. When you catch a heavy ball, your hands sting because it comes out with some heat on it.

 

"I remember turning to Tom Moore and saying, '[Leaf's] arm is not as strong as Peyton's.'

 

"'I think you're right,' Tom said."

 

 

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, joshhasbighands said:

Josh has made mistakes but I saw a piece yesterday where they were saying Burrow threw 15 INTs last season, yet he is thought of for some reason as so much better than Josh by people in the media. I think Allen gets judged differently because of the pre draft talk around him and his issues. People who thought he'd be a bust will grudgingly admit he's good when they have no other choice (when he plays out of his mind) but every time he throws a pick they're right there with the same old Allen talk. 

 

I'm sort of glad he's not the media darling anymore because he's better with a chip on his shoulder. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him have an MVP year this season. But to shut these guys up he needs to win a Super Bowl and an MVP

 

 

Burrow threw 12 last year, Josh 14. 

 

But in the last 3 years, Burrow threw 5 (in 9 games), 14 and 12, while Josh, with two years more in the league, threw 10, 15 and 14. 

 

And in Allen's last three years he has 30 fumbles compared to Burrow's 20. 

 

There are reasons for the turnover reputation. At this point, Allen is no longer judged by pre-draft talk, he just isn't. There was a time when he was, in his first two or three years, but that time is long past.

[leonbus23]

Being compared to Manning is great. Can Allen end his career with 72,000 passing yards and win 2 super bowls? Or, like Matt Ryan and Phillip Rivers, end his career with 63,000 yards and zero super bowls? 

 

Personally, I'd prefer Montana's 40,000 yards and 4 super bowls! 

 

At this point, he could still fizzle out like Luck, Bulger, or Culpepper.

Edited July 4, 2023 by leonbus23

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

All that matters is how he compares to his peers. And Allen compares very favorably. The only peer QB one could say is better is Mahomes.  The only one that might be better is Burrow. So he is somewhere around number 2-3 amongst his peers. That is what you want in your franchise QB.

 

Peyton was a turnover machine compared to some of his peers that had overlapping careers like Brady and Rodgers. But Peyton was also consistently top 3 amongst his peers for the majority of his career. 

 

I hope Allen can stay top three. Their is a chance he could become Big Ben or Phillip Rivers as more good QB’s and teams come into maturity but Big Ben was still usually top 5-6 and won two super bowls while going to three. 
 

The absolute worst outcome for Allen would be him following the trajectory of Phillip Rivers. But right now Herbert probably has to worry the most about not becoming the next Rivers.

 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Burrow threw 12 last year, Josh 14. 

 

But in the last 3 years, Burrow threw 5 (in 9 games), 14 and 12, while Josh, with two years more in the league, threw 10, 15 and 14. 

 

And in Allen's last three years he has 30 fumbles compared to Burrow's 20. 

 

There are reasons for the turnover reputation. At this point, Allen is no longer judged by pre-draft talk, he just isn't. There was a time when he was, in his first two or three years, but that time is long past.

Fumbles happen when you're half the rush offense

[Mikie2times]

The average QB rating in 

 

1970 =  75.6

1980 =  73.7

1990 =  77.3

2000=  78.1

2010 =  84.1

2020 = 93.6

 

As an example, Peyton had a 121.1 rating in 2004.  The average rating in 2004 82.8, so he was 38.3 points above the average. He was also clocking 90's or higher after basically his first year.  I love Josh, but trying to compare his raw stats to Peyton is silly. 

[joshhasbighands]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

 Nobody thinks Burrow is that much better than Allen if at all. they all think however he has better wide receiver group then Allen does.

Almost every clip I've seen from every sports show (I'm not denying they're fronted by idiots) has people putting Burrow above Allen

[without a drought]

I'll wait for the Sonny Jurgensen comparison .

 

 

 

 

 

It was just a random name, don't get all worked up over this.

 

[Dr.Sack]

Where are the different era excuse makers?

[Doc Brown]

21 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

Dabbol had Josh’s turnovers trending way down then Daboll left….

Dorsey gets too much flack and Daboll too much credit imo.  A lot of Josh's fumbles were usually the result of the offensive line getting beat combined with him looking for the big play.  Dorsey's play design had guys open underneath on most of those fumbles.  I put it more on the o-line and Josh.  Also, five of his fumbles were botched snaps which are the most easy to correct.

[LeGOATski]

Josh Allen is Brett Favre. Throwing, running, boy, competitiveness, ego, teammate, womaniser, friend.

 

Don't be surprised if he makes questionable decisions in the future around retirement time.

 

He's just a man!

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Where are the different era excuse makers?

I don’t need excuses. Just look at the average QB rating if the different eras

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Josh Allen is Brett Favre. Throwing, running, boy, competitiveness, ego, teammate, womaniser, friend.

 

Don't be surprised if he makes questionable decisions in the future around retirement time.

 

He's just a man!

 

I'm here for the dick pic. Hope it is more impressive than Brett's.

[jethro_tull]

Thanks for posting this info!  

Peyton didn't win his first super bowl until his 10th season and then again in his 17th year.  

[Alphadawg7]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:47 AM, Chicken Boo said:

We get it.  Josh is good, BUT it was a vastly different game in the late 90s-2000s and yes, Peyton threw a ton of pics early in his career.  

People keep saying this, but it wasn’t “vastly” different when Manning played.  It was vastly different when say someone like Montana played, but by the time Manning got here the league was already pushing offense and passing.  I mean this is the same era Brady played in and no one is saying the game was vastly different when Brady played.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 7/3/2023 at 7:18 PM, PrimeTime101 said:

Just wondering... how many yards did peyton run a year?

Exactly. I hate when people just use pass yards to compare QBs. What makes Josh so unique & great is his ground skills. Same with Lamar Jackson. And TDs are TDs no matter how u get them. 

[sunshynman]

On 7/3/2023 at 5:41 PM, Nextmanup said:

I found this, but there must be more out there.

 

 

Patrick Mahomes GP: 80;     JOSH ALLEN:   80

 

CMP: 1,981    ;   1,694

 

ATT: 2,997    ;    2,697

 

PCT: 66.1;      62.8

 

YDS: 24,108;      19,385

 

AVG: 8.0;     7.2

 

YDS/G: 301.4    ;     242.3

 

TDS: 196          ;       143

 

TD%: 6.5      ;         5.3

 

INT: 48         ;         58

 

INT%: 1.6      ;        2.2

 

SCK: 133       ;       159

 

SCKY: 886     ;     1,047

 

RATE:  105.8    ;     93.1

 

 

From STATMUSE.COM

SCK: 133       ;       159

 

That just shows how crappy an oline we have given Allen. Considering he often escapes with runs as well! Mahomes has had better protection and more weapons his whole career than the make shift crap we have put in front of Allen. I am pleased we focused on O this offseason! 

[Chicken Boo]

43 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

People keep saying this, but it wasn’t “vastly” different when Manning played.  It was vastly different when say someone like Montana played, but by the time Manning got here the league was already pushing offense and passing.  I mean this is the same era Brady played in and no one is saying the game was vastly different when Brady played.  

 

Brady played for 20 years.  There's been a ton of rules changes in that time.  

 

From 1984 to 2008 there were two 5,000 passing seasons.  From 2011 to current, there have been 13.  The rule changes paved the way for this shift. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Brady played for 20 years.  There's been a ton of rules changes in that time.  

 

From 1984 to 2008 there were two 5,000 passing seasons.  From 2011 to current, there have been 13.  The rule changes paved the way for this shift. 

 

WHy did you go all the way back to 1984 to talk about an era of a player whose rookie year was 1998?  I literally said that when Manning entered the league, there was already a big push by the NFL for passing and offense. 

 

The era of Manning and Allen are not that different...they were both passing era leagues for MOST of Mannings career.  This whole line is a bit exaggerative if I do say so myself.  

[Lost]

21 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Josh Allen is Brett Favre. Throwing, running, boy, competitiveness, ego, teammate, womaniser, friend.

 

Don't be surprised if he makes questionable decisions in the future around retirement time.

 

He's just a man!

 

Brett Favre married his high school sweetheart and has been with her for like 37 years.   The reporter incident later in life aside, I wouldn't call him a womaniser.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by Lost

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Exactly. I hate when people just use pass yards to compare QBs. What makes Josh so unique & great is his ground skills. Same with Lamar Jackson. And TDs are TDs no matter how u get them. 

Should we compare him to Michael Vick or Cam Newton?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

31 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Should we compare him to Michael Vick or Cam Newton?

A better version of Cam Newton

[Chicken Boo]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

WHy did you go all the way back to 1984 to talk about an era of a player whose rookie year was 1998?  I literally said that when Manning entered the league, there was already a big push by the NFL for passing and offense. 

 

The era of Manning and Allen are not that different...they were both passing era leagues for MOST of Mannings career.  This whole line is a bit exaggerative if I do say so myself.  

 

Manning came into the league in 1998.  The massive shift of the NFL becoming a passing league happened around 2011, as evidenced by the 5,000 yard passers.  

 

Peyton had Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James from '98-'05.  His career high in passing attempts was in 2010.  Tom Brady's passing attempts jumped sharply in 2011 throughout the rest of his career.

 

Per Wikipedia:

"The 2011 season saw an unprecedented amount of passing offense: Three of the nine highest passing yardage totals of all time were established: No. 2 Drew Brees (5,476), No. 3 Tom Brady (5,235), and No. 9 Matthew Stafford (5,038); Eli Manning threw for 4,933 yards, which places him 14th all time.[1] It also saw Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers establish the all-time single-season best quarterback rating of 122.5.[2] Further cementing the modern NFL's reputation as a "passing league"[3][4][5] was the fact that, for the second consecutive year, the league overall set a record for most average passing yards per team per game, with 229.7, breaking 2010's record by more than eight yards per game.[6] (For comparison, the league-wide average rushing yards total finished the 2011 season at 57th all-time.)" 

 

The defense rests.

[C.Biscuit97]

I once compared Farves first couple seasons to Losman’s. EJ also had some nice early career comparisons to HOFers.

 

comparing guys from different eras is insane. Manning would throw for 6,000 yards now (and lose in the playoffs).  We have a top 3 qb and mostly likely future HOFer. We don’t need to do this anymore. 

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Manning came into the league in 1998.  The massive shift of the NFL becoming a passing league happened around 2011, as evidenced by the 5,000 yard passers.  

 

Peyton had Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James from '98-'05.  His career high in passing attempts was in 2010.  Tom Brady's passing attempts jumped sharply in 2011 throughout the rest of his career.

 

Per Wikipedia:

"The 2011 season saw an unprecedented amount of passing offense: Three of the nine highest passing yardage totals of all time were established: No. 2 Drew Brees (5,476), No. 3 Tom Brady (5,235), and No. 9 Matthew Stafford (5,038); Eli Manning threw for 4,933 yards, which places him 14th all time.[1] It also saw Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers establish the all-time single-season best quarterback rating of 122.5.[2] Further cementing the modern NFL's reputation as a "passing league"[3][4][5] was the fact that, for the second consecutive year, the league overall set a record for most average passing yards per team per game, with 229.7, breaking 2010's record by more than eight yards per game.[6] (For comparison, the league-wide average rushing yards total finished the 2011 season at 57th all-time.)" 

 

The defense rests.

 

Talk about over dramatizing...you are cherry picking stats while ignoring the context.  Tom Brady and the Pats set the NFL all time scoring record in 2007, long before his "career high in attempts" which has literally nothing to do with the type of "era" it was and everything to do with the circumstances of the team and offense he was playing in at that stage of his career.  

 

Furthermore, you literally proved my entire point in your own post...the "passing league" and the shift to offensive focus and passing offense specifically had already long been in effect.  You literally posted a quote stating that 2011 FURTHER cemented the modern NFL's reptuation as a "passing league", which once again, was something that had been true for a while.  Hence them referencing the fact is was already an "era" by referring to it as the modern NFL period.  

 

Point is...the Era Manning played in was not much different than the one Allen is playing in.  An era that saw Tom Brady and the Pats establish the highest scoring offense of all time in 2007, only to be broken by none other than Peyton Manning in 2013 as just another accolade in a career where he amongst the leading passers every season he played and with mostly gaudy stats and a butt load of offensive weapons, HOF level weapons, around him almost his entire career.  

 

Meanwhile, Allen has just Diggs as top end talent, and only had him 3 of the 5 seasons he has been in the NFL.  Manning had Harrison, Wayne, Faulk, Edge, Welker, Thomas, etc.  Allen had to start his career more raw than Manning, for a team that gave him Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones to start as his initial receivers.  

 

This whole it was a different era thing is just so over exaggerated and pretty irrelevant.  

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Tom Brady and the Pats set the NFL all time scoring record in 2007, long before his "career high in attempts" which has literally nothing to do with the type of "era" it was and everything to do with the circumstances of the team and offense he was playing in at that stage of his career.  

 

 

And 2007 was still FIVE YEARS AFTER Peyton's 5th season in 2002. 

 

I have no idea why you are fighting this losing battle. You might as well as say Joe Montana and Peyton Manning (20 year spread between rookie seasons) played in the same era if you are going to say Allen and Peyton (21 year spread between rookie seasons) played in the same era. 

 

2002 - (1) QB had a passer rating above 100

2022 - (6) QB's had a passer rating above 100

 

And the above are not anomalies for those eras. In Peyton's first five seasons from '98 to '02, there were three seasons where only one QB posted a 100+ passer rating. And in Allen's first five seasons, this past season was actually the fewest number of QB's to post 100+ ratings. The other four seasons saw, 8, 9, 9 and 10 QB's post ratings above 100. 

 

Furthermore, 

 

2002 - (4) QB's had a passer rating above 90

2022- (18) QB's had a passer rating above 90

 

In the late 90's / early 2000's you were an elite QB is your rating was above 90. Today, you could be a bottom half of the league QB with a 90 rating.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Chicken Boo]

Exhausting...