Kurt Warner's "Study Ball" review of Bengals game.

[Maine-iac]

Lots of interesting stuff here.  I don't always agree with everything that comes from Warner but this looks pretty straight forward.  The ball needed to come out quicker and the short passing game needs much better execution.  Looked like a lot of plays were there.  I don't think the Bengal's defense was too much we just didn't execute well. That's just my take.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Lots of interesting stuff here.  I don't always agree with everything that comes from Warner but this looks pretty straight forward.  The ball needed to come out quicker and the short passing game needs much better execution.  Looked like a lot of plays were there.  I don't think the Bengal's defense was too much we just didn't execute well. That's just my take.  

 

 

 

Some of us have been saying this for two weeks. It's popular to pile on coaching. But it's a PLAYERS game. That will never change. The coaching wasn't faultless, far from it. But guys on both sides just have to play better.

 

EDIT: and Josh is better when the ball comes out fast.

Edited February 4, 2023 by GunnerBill

[78thealltimegreat]

Kurt’s analysis is basically Josh Allen lost this game by himself and no one else  is to blame. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Given the weather too, this was the obvious gameplan. Look at what the bengals did— just very simple quick stuff and then guys made defenders miss with a move in the snow. 

 

I don’t get it, because the first few games of the year, we were all over the quick stuff. And then we added a Hines who is perfect for it also. 

[Goin Breakdown]

3 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Given the weather too, this was the obvious gameplan. Look at what the bengals did— just very simple quick stuff and then guys made defenders miss with a move in the snow. 

 

I don’t get it, because the first few games of the year, we were all over the quick stuff. And then we added a Hines who is perfect for it also. 

Your second paragraph is exactly right IMO. I don't understand why they went away from it. Was it all joshs elbow? Some say he got concussed?  Game plan?

[LABILLBACKER]

Dorsey had few hot reads or crossing routes all season. And yes Josh has to be coached up to value the checkdown as much as the fly route.  When your weapons are few and teams double Diggs, you revert to hero ball.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

4 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Given the weather too, this was the obvious gameplan. Look at what the bengals did— just very simple quick stuff and then guys made defenders miss with a move in the snow. 

 

I don’t get it, because the first few games of the year, we were all over the quick stuff. And then we added a Hines who is perfect for it also. 

 

 I don't get it either. I've said this the last couple days now, he was quick and decisive in the playoffs last year and in the first few games this year, then in games 4-6 it all slowly went away. I don't know if all the injuries early on made him feel he had to do more or what, but there was a clear difference in play between Josh weeks 1-3 and late season/playoff Josh this year. 

 

 He was so quick getting the ball out in week 1 that Chris Collinsworth compared his play that night to Brady, saying something like If I didn't know any better I swear we're watching Brady tonight. He mentioned just how fast the ball was coming out on several occasions. Part of Dorsey's job is keeping Allen on schedule, he needs to do alot better next year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

The bengals could have scored every time they touched the ball. God forbid our offense has an off day and doesn’t bail them out. Literally every week the offense wins us games, 1 time they don’t have it and that’s a big deal. How about once in a while have the defense making stops. You might have to win a game 13-10. You just never can because our defense absolutely blows. Let’s spend the offseason complaining about WRs and Dorsey though….keep not fixing the actual problem and wonder why we are watching the Super Bowl with the fans.

[Rigotz]

55 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Some of us have been saying this for two weeks. It's popular to pile on coaching. But it's a PLAYERS game. That will never change. The coaching wasn't faultless, far from it. But guys on both sides just have to play better.

You watched the video and that was your takeaway?

 

Personally, I thought this showed horrific play design time and again. Look at 16:30. You have 3 WRs on one side of the field running verts into a 2 high safety look. Zero short or intermediate route… just “go sling it into double coverage, Josh!” … and no short or intermediate answer for the corner blitz.

 

That is NOT a player issue. That is a play design issue.

[Maine-iac]

One of the things I liked is that while he did point out throws that were there Warner also talked about play design.  Getting the guy out to the flat so that you can get the ball out hot and catch the defense instead of chipping and giving them time to get coverage there.  It just seemed like our answer was always block and then strike instead of a quick strike that never allowed them to get there.  

6 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

The bengals could have scored every time they touched the ball. God forbid our offense has an off day and doesn’t bail them out. Literally every week the offense wins us games, 1 time they don’t have it and that’s a big deal. How about once in a while have the defense making stops. You might have to win a game 13-10. You just never can because our defense absolutely blows. Let’s spend the offseason complaining about WRs and Dorsey though….keep not fixing the actual problem and wonder why we are watching the Super Bowl with the fans.

You're right.  The defense didn't have it but this thread was never about the defense or who lost the game.  Just watching a film break down.  I'm sure there are 100 threads about the defense.  Choose one and let it out.  

Edited February 4, 2023 by Maine-iac

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

You watched the video and that was your takeaway?

 

Personally, I thought this showed horrific play design time and again. Look at 16:30. You have 3 WRs on one side of the field running verts into a 2 high safety look. Zero short or intermediate route… just “go sling it into double coverage, Josh!” … and no short or intermediate answer for the corner blitz.

 

That is NOT a player issue. That is a play design issue.

 

Play design is not perfect. No question there are issues. But you can't watch that video and avoid the conclusion there were plays there to be made that the Bills didn't make. 

[Dubie54]

42 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Given the weather too, this was the obvious gameplan. Look at what the bengals did— just very simple quick stuff and then guys made defenders miss with a move in the snow. 

 

I don’t get it, because the first few games of the year, we were all over the quick stuff. And then we added a Hines who is perfect for it also. 

Exactly - not using Hines more effectively was an enormous blind spot for Dorsey and should have resulted in his being fired. Our offense could have been so much more dynamic and much harder to defend if we had utilized play action, screens, short dumps, to counter the deep ball and our running game.

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 I don't get it either. I've said this the last couple days now, he was quick and decisive in the playoffs last year and in the first few games this year, then in games 4-6 it all slowly went away. I don't know if all the injuries early on made him feel he had to do more or what, but there was a clear difference in play between Josh weeks 1-3 and late season/playoff Josh this year. 

 

 He was so quick getting the ball out in week 1 that Chris Collinsworth compared his play that night to Brady, saying something like If I didn't know any better I swear we're watching Brady tonight. He mentioned just how fast the ball was coming out on several occasions. Part of Dorsey's job is keeping Allen on schedule, he needs to do alot better next year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea that he was throwing the ball quickly and short in the playoffs last year is revisionist

 

He was holding the ball, getting through reads and looking deep when he was most effective, both against NE and the Chiefs. 

[BBills_88]

After watching, Dorsey needs to have answer for every play. 

 

Dorsey wants to be aggressive, but he has no exact plan.

 

Hopefully Josh learned from this tape. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

24 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

One of the things I liked is that while he did point out throws that were there Warner also talked about play design.  Getting the guy out to the flat so that you can get the ball out hot and catch the defense instead of chipping and giving them time to get coverage there.  It just seemed like our answer was always block and then strike instead of a quick strike that never allowed them to get there.  

You're right.  The defense didn't have it but this thread was never about the defense or who lost the game.  Just watching a film break down.  I'm sure there are 100 threads about the defense.  Choose one and let it out.  

It feels like somehow from the minute the game ended all everyone wants to talk about is lack of weapons and the offense. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. This team casually scores 30 every week like it’s nothing but we get run over constantly. I know this was about something else I guess I just wanted to have people relax over the Josh stuff. He’s probably trying to do too much because he knew he needed 7 on every drive.

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

It feels like somehow from the minute the game ended all everyone wants to talk about is lack of weapons and the offense. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. This team casually scores 30 every week like it’s nothing but we get run over constantly. I know this was about something else I guess I just wanted to have people relax over the Josh stuff. He’s probably trying to do too much because he knew he needed 7 on every drive.

Josh is fine.  He's still a man among men.  Even Warner complimented Josh several times on making something happen.  Hindsight is always 20/20 so after a game is over and you are looking at tape it's always easier to say what you could have/should have done.  Dorsey and Josh are good but I'm sure they'll learn from this. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, BBills_88 said:

After watching, Dorsey needs to have answer for every play. 

 

Dorsey wants to be aggressive, but he has no exact plan.

 

Hopefully Josh learned from this tape. 

 

 He threw quickly a bunch of times in the NE playoff game and mixed in some longer passes. 4 of his 5 tds were less than 20 yds and 3 of those 4 were  quick throws. Have no idea what you're referring to there. Just rewatched the game yesterday.

 

 Started the game against KC the same way. As the game progressed and they saw a clear weakness with honey badger leaving the game. Once they identified that they started taking deeper shots to Gabe.

 

 And yes when you hit on almost all your deep shots over a 2 game stretch, with most going for tds, it's going to be the most effective part of your game. He was lethal with the deep ball in the playoffs last year.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Some of us have been saying this for two weeks. It's popular to pile on coaching. But it's a PLAYERS game. That will never change. The coaching wasn't faultless, far from it. But guys on both sides just have to play better.

 

EDIT: and Josh is better when the ball comes out fast.

I haven’t had the time to go through Warners breakdown. 
 

At scale, I totally agree with you. 2 weeks is conservative for how long some have been pounding the table. 
 

But from what I watched on A22 this year the Bengals game was one of Allens less egregious games this season. The Divisional was a full system failure from FO to OC, OL, QB, and WR. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Your second paragraph is exactly right IMO. I don't understand why they went away from it. Was it all joshs elbow? Some say he got concussed?  Game plan?

Why we abandoned the easy checkdowns which also act as your running game will be the great mystery of 2022?

[CoudyBills]

2 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

It feels like somehow from the minute the game ended all everyone wants to talk about is lack of weapons and the offense. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. This team casually scores 30 every week like it’s nothing but we get run over constantly. I know this was about something else I guess I just wanted to have people relax over the Josh stuff. He’s probably trying to do too much because he knew he needed 7 on every drive.

How many more first round picks should they burn on a defense in today's NFL?  The NFL is a race to 40 every week.  Whoever gets the closest wins.

[Brand J]

Maybe put Allen in the Arena League for a summer. That’s where Kurt learned to get the ball out super fast 😄

[CheshireCT]

4 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

Lots of interesting stuff here.  I don't always agree with everything that comes from Warner but this looks pretty straight forward.  The ball needed to come out quicker and the short passing game needs much better execution.  Looked like a lot of plays were there.  I don't think the Bengal's defense was too much we just didn't execute well. That's just my take.  

 

 

 

That was fun to watch, thanks for posting. 

 

Takeaways from my side were:

- When the defense sends pressure, Josh often gambles. Instead of immediately taking the checkdown, he tries to get more. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. To "go by the book," he should decide to take the safety valve as soon as the D sends extra guys. The flip side of that is, he has made a career of running around dodging guys to buy extra time for a splashy play. To me it seems like a next step for him is knowing WHEN to extend a play and when to do less work and just take 7 yards.

- Sometimes the play design didn't give Josh any safety valves. The D sent pressure AND covered everybody at least long enough. Such play calls leave him hanging out to dry.

- This was a learning game for JA and the offense. unfortunately the learning game came during the playoffs.

Edited February 5, 2023 by CheshireCT

[BADOLBILZ]

 

As the quality of the Bills short game targets has declined since 2020 and with the Bills receiving corps having a lot of ball droppers outside of Diggs........Allen has focused more on getting the ball downfield.

 

Allen is certainly not without blame but inefficient targets like Davis and Knox need to be just a bit further down the food chain in the Bills pass game.

 

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Play design is not perfect. No question there are issues. But you can't watch that video and avoid the conclusion there were plays there to be made that the Bills didn't make. 

It was a total team loss in every fashion. Coaches to players and players to coaches. 

 

Imho, I just can't forgive how poorly the game plan was. The Bills had a free 9 min rehearsal on the Monday night game. What on earth did they learn? What the hell was the game plan?

 

The defensive and the offensive game plans were pathetic. The game adjustments and lack of were equally deplorable. 

 

The players from Allen to the whole defense sucked as$. They should have been booed off the field. Fans wasted their money seeing such a pathetic effort. A refund should be given to all Bills fans who attended that massacre. 

 

Of course, we Bills fans will mostly deny the facts. See the glass half full. Make excuses and cheer for the best. 

 

Next year we will likely be discussing the same issues because the team has flawed coaches and a lack of talent. Let's run it back and hope for a different result. Of course, there will be no significant injuries either.  

Edited February 5, 2023 by newcam2012

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, CoudyBills said:

How many more first round picks should they burn on a defense in today's NFL?  The NFL is a race to 40 every week.  Whoever gets the closest wins.

Getting away from dumping money and high picks into the defense will only not be a philosophy when Beane and McDermott aren’t here. They are defense first guys. Last year the offensive upgrades were Saffold and Crowder on 1 year deals. 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Given the weather too, this was the obvious gameplan. Look at what the bengals did— just very simple quick stuff and then guys made defenders miss with a move in the snow. 

 

I don’t get it, because the first few games of the year, we were all over the quick stuff. And then we added a Hines who is perfect for it also. 

The way I see it, It first and foremost was/ is a coaching failure, then a player execution failure. 
   Being that one of two things were happening, the players did not do what they practiced to do during games, or the players were doing what was asked of them and it wasn’t working, in either case it is incumbent upon the coaches to make timely and appropriate adjustments during games and practices to mitigate the problem. If the coaches are not able to do so…, 
   

   It is going to be an important opportunity this off season for the FO, coaching staff, and players to get things right if they want to get where they want to be at the end of this upcoming season, all parties bear portions of that responsibility if they want to get there. 

Time and tide wait for no man…, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[WideNine]

The moral of the story is that when teams bring extra pressure, they bank on Allen holding the ball too long and not taking his quick hot reads and dump offs.

 

They drop and stack defenders at and behind the sticks because they know that is where his eyes tend to go when he holds the ball.

 

Getting the ball out more quickly and knowing where to go with it underneath when pressured is an area Josh needs to improve to take the next step in his game.

 

Bombs away with deep lobs are great, but successful teams and QBs know how to balance their game by taking what defenses are giving them too.

 

Folks get their undees in a bunch if any critique goes Allen's way, but does anyone think that Allen watches his tape of that game and comes away thinking, "Yeah, I made great decisions with the ball."?

 

I doubt it. If he is a real competitor, he will want to fix those things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by WideNine

[Orlando Tim]

Watching that made me realize how often the Bills had no plans if the defense did something "unexpected". If Josh had a poor presnap read then the rest of the team did not react properly. Not sure if that is on Josh, on Dorsey, or execution on others but those plays highlighted made it clear we lost those plays before snap.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Dorsey had few hot reads or crossing routes all season. And yes Josh has to be coached up to value the checkdown as much as the fly route.  When your weapons are few and teams double Diggs, you revert to hero ball.

That’s an excuse for Josh. We’ve seen him play under control. We’ve seen him do it earlier in the season under Dorsey. He needs to be better to win a Super Bowl. 

 

29 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

Watching that made me realize how often the Bills had no plans if the defense did something "unexpected". If Josh had a poor presnap read then the rest of the team did not react properly. Not sure if that is on Josh, on Dorsey, or execution on others but those plays highlighted made it clear we lost those plays before snap.

If Josh had a poor read you don’t know who’s to blame?

 

Josh Allen.

[AuntieEm]

5 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Exactly - not using Hines more effectively was an enormous blind spot for Dorsey and should have resulted in his being fired. Our offense could have been so much more dynamic and much harder to defend if we had utilized play action, screens, short dumps, to counter the deep ball and our running game.

 

    And once the opponents get tired of getting gashed for all the quick passes and start creeping up then the deep shots will be crazy open for easy killshots.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Exactly - not using Hines more effectively was an enormous blind spot for Dorsey and should have resulted in his being fired. Our offense could have been so much more dynamic and much harder to defend if we had utilized play action, screens, short dumps, to counter the deep ball and our running game.

It wasn’t a fact of not knowing. They had 3 RBs! Daboll had a similar problem of not knowing what RBs to play and how to utilize them. 
 

For Hines to be affective he would’ve needed more snaps. Now you’re taking Singletary, Cook, a WR, or TE off the field. There was no way they were giving Hines snaps over Singletary, Cook, McKenzie, or Knox. Not in the middle of the season.

 

The truth is they didn’t need Hines. When they threw him out there for a few plays the defense knew what was coming. They would’ve been better off not playing him on offense at all. 

[Orlando Tim]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

 

 

If Josh had a poor read you don’t know who’s to blame?

 

Josh Allen.

I mean I don't know who should be responsible for each level of recognition, if a reciever should break off on a blitz then that is not on Josh. Obviously if Josh was suppose to change things then he is to blame. If Dorsey never made a hot route then Dorsey is to blame. I simply don't know whose job it is 

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Orlando Tim said:

I mean I don't know who should be responsible for each level of recognition, if a reciever should break off on a blitz then that is not on Josh. Obviously if Josh was suppose to change things then he is to blame. If Dorsey never made a hot route then Dorsey is to blame. I simply don't know whose job it is 

 

 

It’s the QB. Maybe Josh does need constant coaching to force him into taking what the defense gives him but it’s QB every time.

 

 

[Dubie54]

Hines was a proven weapon. Avg. 50 rec/yr over the last 4 years with Indy.  He very easily could have been utilized but Dorsey lacked the creativity to figure that out. Singletary never had more than 40 in a season in his entire career. Hines provided skills that we did not have out of the backfield, and at the very least would have drawn attention out of the backfield as a decoy. Dorsey never even made an attempt to add him into the mix which I stand firm on was a big mistake. He could have been lined up in the slot, or wide, or out of the backfield in order to mix things up. Sure more reps for him would have impacted others but that’s what happens when you have a variety of weapons and a creative and dynamic offense. 

[Andy1]

My understanding of the offensive scheme we run is it has multiple routes for receivers depending upon what the defense does. Beating the blitz by having a hot receiver replace the area otherwise covered by the blitzing defender is pretty simple NFL offense concept. Either the receivers weren’t recognizing what the D was doing or Dorsey didn’t adjust. Pretty disappointing either way. 
 

The point Warner raises about chipping blocks is a good one and points to offensive strategy issues. Josh needs to develop his decision making skills. Hopefully that will be a point of improvement this off season. 

[Man with No Name]

so many people don't seem to understand a coach's job is not just calling plays, but TEACHING players to execute plays. 

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Some of us have been saying this for two weeks. It's popular to pile on coaching. But it's a PLAYERS game. That will never change. The coaching wasn't faultless, far from it. But guys on both sides just have to play better.

 

EDIT: and Josh is better when the ball comes out fast.

So the question is why wasn’t the ball coming out fast?
 

We know Josh loves to throw it deep but we also know that he has the ability to work the short game so why wasn’t doing it

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

The moral of the story is that when teams bring extra pressure, they bank on Allen holding the ball too long and not taking his quick hot reads and dump offs.

 

They drop and stack defenders at and behind the sticks because they know that is where his eyes tend to go when he holds the ball.

 

Getting the ball out more quickly and knowing where to go with it underneath when pressured is an area Josh needs to improve to take the next step in his game.

 

Bombs away with deep lobs are great, but successful teams and QBs know how to balance their game by taking what defenses are giving them too.

 

Folks get their undees in a bunch if any critique goes Allen's way, but does anyone think that Allen watches his tape of that game and comes away thinking, "Yeah, I made great decisions with the ball."?

 

I doubt it. If he is a real competitor, he will want to fix those things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Josh works on one thing in particular every off-season that has always been his way. I’m hoping that he can find a way to work on throwing underneath routes and getting the ball out quicker.
 

This last year he was working on his long ball. That obviously has been much better.

[Ray Stonada]

Seems clear it was both:

 

1) The play design didn’t have a new wrinkle that defeated the Bengals’ anticipation of the Bills’ tendencies. 

 

(The way the short passes to Singletary did in last year’s “perfect” Pats game.)

 

2) Josh didn’t take enough of what was there, and was not mentally ahead of the Bengals defense.
 

(Diggs’ frustration was not unfounded.)

 

This was a winnable game, not a mismatch. 

 

[AuntieEm]

43 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It wasn’t a fact of not knowing. They had 3 RBs! Daboll had a similar problem of not knowing what RBs to play and how to utilize them. 
 

For Hines to be affective he would’ve needed more snaps. Now you’re taking Singletary, Cook, a WR, or TE off the field. There was no way they were giving Hines snaps over Singletary, Cook, McKenzie, or Knox. Not in the middle of the season.

 

The truth is they didn’t need Hines. When they threw him out there for a few plays the defense knew what was coming. They would’ve been better off not playing him on offense at all. 

 

   Or design some counter plays once opponents 'know' what play will be when Hines goes in.  Sell a fake to Hines while the real target gets free with clear running for lots of yac.  Once there are multiple results from same looks then you can go up tempo  lil no huddle when u have a good mismatch for what defense is on field.  Make them react to what your team is dictating.  

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

36 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Hines was a proven weapon. Avg. 50 rec/yr over the last 4 years with Indy.  He very easily could have been utilized but Dorsey lacked the creativity to figure that out. Singletary never had more than 40 in a season in his entire career. Hines provided skills that we did not have out of the backfield, and at the very least would have drawn attention out of the backfield as a decoy. Dorsey never even made an attempt to add him into the mix which I stand firm on was a big mistake. He could have been lined up in the slot, or wide, or out of the backfield in order to mix things up. Sure more reps for him would have impacted others but that’s what happens when you have a variety of weapons and a creative and dynamic offense. 

Benching Singletary or Cook would go over brilliantly. We were already complaining about Cook usage. In fact that is still a better complaint. 

 

I hated when they gave snaps to Moss. I can’t say anything about giving snaps to Singletary and Cook. Our offense doesn’t utilize the RB well, that goes back to Daboll. It’s not a Dorsey thing. It could be an Allen thing. I would say it’s an Allen thing. He could probably hit the RB in the flat or right in front of him every time.It’s always there when watching games back.
 

All these fans that secretly know our offensive concepts and hot calls on this board should get into coaching also. I will always blame the QB. I blame the QB for nearly everything that goes wrong with the offense. I also credit almost every time things go right. That goes for protection, everything.
 

Josh is at his absolute unstoppable best when he’s dinking and dunking. When he’s hitting the RBs out of the backfield he’s unstoppable. LBs are lost. They can’t spy him and also cover the RB. It opened up the entire offense. For whatever reason last year Josh went away from that as the season went on and decided to become Daunte Culpepper launching balls down field to Moss.

 

16 minutes ago, Man with No Name said:

so many people don't seem to understand a coach's job is not just calling plays, but TEACHING players to execute plays. 

First thing to understand is that just because it’s taught doesn’t mean it’ll be executed. I’ve never been on a football team that didn’t teach hots and blitz beaters. There is absolutely zero chance the Bills offensive coaching staff doesn’t teach hots.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede