Your Gut Instinct: Are Beane/McDermott On Track to Win Championship(s) or Wasting J. Allen's talent?

[BillsFan692]

Hindsight is 20/20 we can all say at start of the season we know we had all these problems but at the same time none of us knew that and the coaches didn't either. Football evolves every year and if you're standing still you're losing. I think we stood still a little bit from last year to this year and other teams 'caught up' and even surpassed. Bills are now on notice and need to evolve. If they can't do that we're def screwed, but I guess we'll see !=P

[NastyNateSoldiers]

14 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Not a complete excuse, but

1. coming to a new team mid-season meant that he had to learn a whole new offense and develop relationships with his new teammates

2. He was also playing Special Teams which drew some of his attention away from learning the new offense

3. The OL was really struggling so RBs needed to be held in to block more often than usual 

4. Singletary and Cook were both playing well ahead of him

 

Do you really think that they purposely drafted Cook and traded for Hines, both pass catching backs, and then forgot about using them?  I think more likely, circumstances like the above made incorporating the backs into the passing game difficult.

 

Specifically regarding Hines, imagine starting a new job at a different company.  Do you think you will understand everything and perform all roles immediately?

Not to mention this team doesn’t have a screen pass in the playbook. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

7 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

I’ve seen enough talent from Josh to know he has the same abilities as Mahomes and Burrow. So that got me thinking why such a disparity. Then I do a roster to roster to roster comparison and begin to realize that the difference is coaching and talent. It’s not a Josh Allen problem. We are only winning because of him. You put him on a team like SF or Philly and you are talking about a multi year dynasty. 

Put him on the Jets and there Super Bowl bound! 

[Figster]

The NFL playoff rules were changed because  Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills should not have lost last post season on a coin toss. Regardless of the 13 seconds of shame. We all know what happened this season towards the end of the season. The game of football stopped being fun for the players. I realize life has to go on and this is the life a professional athlete chose. The Bills never stopped doing their jobs. Practicing and game planning. Preparing fot the next opponent. To win in the NFL especially in the playoffs it requires more then just going through the motions. It requires heart, determination and focus. The Buffalo Bills simply didn't have it. Myself personally, I don't blame them.  I also don't think how Buffalo played was a good representation of what they are truly capable of on a football field IMO. The Bills all needed a break from football. They needed it before the playoffs even began IMO.

 

Voted the McBeane regime is on the right track...

 

  

[Matt_In_NH]

13 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He literally played better than any QB in NFL history in the playoffs last year and they still couldn't get out of the divisional round

He played unreal in the 2021 playoffs.  However considering the total body of work, is there any room for improvement?

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

The NFL playoff rules were changed because  Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills should not have lost last post season on a coin toss. Regardless of the 13 seconds of shame. We all know what happened this season towards the end of the season. The game of football stopped being fun for the players. I realize life has to go on and this is the life a professional athlete chose. The Bills never stopped doing their jobs. Practicing and game planning. Preparing fot the next opponent. To win in the NFL especially in the playoffs it requires more then just going through the motions. It requires heart, determination and focus. The Buffalo Bills simply didn't have it. Myself personally, I don't blame them.  I also don't think how Buffalo played was a good representation of what they are truly capable of on a football field IMO. The Bills all needed a break from football. They needed it before the playoffs even began IMO.

 

Voted the McBeane regime is on the right track...

 

  

I think this is a plausible take. I am more skeptical, but I hope this is correct. Either way, next year is going to determine a lot about just where the franchise really is. For sure, Beane had better improve the oline or no coach is going to get it right.

[ProcessTruster]

With the addition of Von Miller, DaQuan Jones and the return of Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson , Beane finally had the defensive roster ready to win, .   But Tre wasn't ready to go, Hyde, Miller, Jones and Phillips couldn't stay on the field for the tournament, so that was that for 2022.   You can't be down 5 key starters and expect to beat the best.

 

Fans on this board downplay the impact of key starter injuries too much.   A teams health going into the tournament is probably the #1 variable.  

 

So, our defense was gutted for the playoffs, they lost a game and this board throws in the towel?  

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

9 hours ago, Chaos said:

Burrows steps up and stands in a pocket and delivers pinpont passes just prior to be crushed by the defense better than any QB I have ever seen.  This is the reason he has the Joe Cool moniker. 

Because his receivers are open, make tough and contested catches.

[OldTimer1960]

10 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

I’ve been a fan for a long time, not as long as some of you but old enough to have seen a lot. Super bowl years were soul crushing, but the last few years are starting to do me in. At least during the decades of suck, there was hope we could attain super bowl glory years. Now we have an elite QB, more elite than Kelly, and we are still struggling to bring one home. I’m willing to be a fan as long as Josh Allen is our QB and will likely continue being a fan of Allen brings home a super bowl victory, but if he can’t by the time he retires, I’m likely done being a Bills fan. It’s just not worth it at that point. I’ve never lurked in the shadows before, even during the bad years, but year after year after year of fail even with elite talent is depressing. 

It used to be that there were only a few outstanding QBs, but today there are many more.  The Bills are in a group of teams that have great QBs, any one of which could win the SB.  While we all watched Brady dominate thinking if only we could get a great QB, we would win, it turns out just having a great QB isn’t enough.

[Buckets]

22 hours ago, Beast said:

They should have won the SB last season with pretty much the same roster. However, they need to improve on the o-line and another dynamic target at WR for me to feel they are a legit contender to win it.

I agree we should have won last year but why didn't we, 13 seconds.

[SoCal Deek]

Some posters on here act like this is all random, like a dice game. It’s not. The Bills coaching staff has now 100% proven they can get a team to the playoffs. After the first year or two at that level and you’ve acquired a tremendous amount of experience. Home playoff games…check. Road playoff games…check. Good weather, bad weather, repeat opponents, new opponents, divisional opponents ….check, check, check. With that kind of resume and experience it’s NOT good luck, or bad luck when your team isn’t prepared to play like they weren’t against the Bengals. It’s just a flat out failure to be so unprepared, come out flat, and then do absolutely nothing about it after halftime! Period. 

[Stuartjohn]

22 hours ago, elijah said:

Check the board for the first time since the Bengals game.. And you’re telling me that so far 70% of people (19-8 in the poll currently) think there’s a better chance that we don’t win a championship under McBeane and Allen? 

 

It was a rough playoff loss and embarrassing coaching, true. 

 

McDermott is still a top 8 coach in the league, true. 

 

Allen is still a top 3 quarterback in the league, true. 

 

McDermott & Allen are still a top 5 QB/Coach combo in the league, true. 

 

The first statement can be true at the same time as the next three. It’s unfortunate the way we lost, and it was outright embarrassing for the organization and the city & fans that invest their lives into this team for 5-6 months of the year, and others that do year round. But the amount of criticism I’ve seen surrounding Allen/McBeane since this loss is borderline unfathomable. Confidence and faith should still be very high that these guys bring us atleast 1 Lombardi, if not more.

 

I was having the same meltdown the day after the game, and maybe even a couple after that. But come on, it’s 2 weeks later. Level yourselves. The Bills are still in a very elite class of the NFL and have turned into a model organization. It’ll come. 

 

And on that note, I guess I’ll have to keep TBD out of my search bar a little longer if this is still the direction conversations are trending 😭 

Bills are NOT  in the Top 5 anymore!  With Frazier as DC and McDermott as Coach- we’ll Never WIN A LOMBARDI!!

[Dopey]

22 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Bills fans are not an accurate group of people to ask about coaching changes.

Why?  Because we have been a lousy franchise for most of our existence, and most of our coaching regimes have been TERRIBLE.  This makes Bills fans think that getting a hold of a good coach is nearly impossible, and that we really lucked out when McDermott and Beane came along.  

 

Further, these fans reason, it'll probably never happen again!  How many coaches have we seen of McDermott's caliber in the history of the team?  This is not the right way to think.

 

Meanwhile, outside the Bills fandom bubble, other franchises remain consistently at the top and make coaching changes as needed.   

 

The Eagles are about to win their SECOND SB in a handful of years, with a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REGIME that won back in 2018!  Different QB too! Different everything! 

 

Look at the Bengals!  Lots of successes--to a degree--for FIFTEEN YEARS with Marvin Lewis..but never got the job done.

 

They finally cave in, bring in a new administration, move on from Dalton, and look at what the team has become NOW....

 

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take 2 or 3 forward.

 

 

 

 

How in the world would you arrive at that conclusion?  As a game manager, he's middling at best.

 

Are you suggesting his ability to run a great prayer group?  Or give a nice speech before practices? 

 

It was recently suggested that Denver's hire of Sean Payton is worth 1 win in the regular season, simply by having him as their head coach.  

 

I'd suggest McDermott is worth 1 loss, simply by having him run the team on the sidelines during games for an entire season.

 

 

We’re a “top” team and have been the past few seasons. Is this our 3rd consecutive AFCE title? We’re going to be a “top” team next year.

Why the comparison to Lewis!?! Why not compare McDermott to Andy Reid?

[gonzo1105]

I think we’re honestly in a case of wrong time to have a franchise QB. I mean the AFC is absolutely loaded at QB including Allen while the NFC literally just has Hurts as their young breakthrough QB. 
 

Im not saying we won’t breakthrough ever but if we were in the NFC I think we would win 1 or 2 for sure. Can’t say that for sure in the AFC 

[Chaos]

11 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

My gut instinct is McDermott/Beane will follow the career paths of Tomlin/Colbert, Harbaugh/Newsome, and Carroll/Schneider.  They'll have their team in the playoffs nearly every season and eventually they'll cash in at least one of those lottery tickets.  

Tomlin, Harbaugh and Carroll all did this early in their tenures. They have been resting on those laurels a long time. 

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

He played unreal in the 2021 playoffs.  However considering the total body of work, is there any room for improvement?

Think of this question in terms of production.  Here is an analogy. In 2022 Aarron Judge his 62 home runs.   Is there room for improvement for Judge.  Certainly.  Maybe he can hit 67 home runs.   But people would think Aaron Boone was goofy as hell to suggest part of the Yankees 2023 strategy was to get more production out of Aaron Judge. 

[PBF81]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:35 AM, Chaos said:

One group thinks the Bills should stay the course and keeping doing the same things and that through some experience/maturation process the Bills will get better results. 

 

The second group thinks the coaching staff has peaked and won't be able to do further in the playoffs than it has.   

 

What is it that they say about doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results ... 

 

A. How long for that maturation?  McD's had 6 seasons now.  

 

B.  Beane can't hit home-runs or triples on days 1 & 2 of the Drafts to save his life.  

 

C.  Like clockwork, in the playoffs our Defense goes on vacation.  

 

D.  In the playoffs and in many regular season games we have to overcome our own coaching blunders and incompetencies to win often.  

 

I'm just curious how many more tries, seasons, will correct what even fans know is obvious.  

Edited February 5, 2023 by PBF81

[Matt_In_NH]

27 minutes ago, Chaos said:

 

Think of this question in terms of production.  Here is an analogy. In 2022 Aarron Judge his 62 home runs.   Is there room for improvement for Judge.  Certainly.  Maybe he can hit 67 home runs.   But people would think Aaron Boone was goofy as hell to suggest part of the Yankees 2023 strategy was to get more production out of Aaron Judge. 

 

I don’t think this is a fair analogy.  Home runs is one small simple thing.   Playing qb is completely different, the qb is more than anything the position most responsible for team success in any sport.   Allen leads the league in air yards and turnovers and at the bottom in RAC.  Placement pace and taking the easy options can improve those things.  I know it’s not cool to suggest Allen should improve in some areas but I feel that way. I also think he is the greatest thing that has happened to this franchise in a generation.  I just think there is something to the thought that Allen tries to do too much too often.  He does not need to.  Maybe the right personality at coordinator would be able to influence that.  

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

What is it that they say about doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results ... 

 

A. How long for that maturation?  McD's had 6 seasons now.  

 

B.  Beane can't hit home-runs or triples on days 1 & 2 of the Drafts to save his life.  

 

C.  Like clockwork, in the playoffs our Defense goes on vacation.  

 

D.  In the playoffs and in many regular season games we have to overcome our own coaching blunders and incompetencies to win often.  

 

I'm just curious how many more tries, seasons, will correct what even fans know is obvious.  

Remember we are told that the Bills were 13-3 this year.  It is the one defense heard over and over.  

 

This is a fan board and the many here look to McD as a messiah, who turned around a 2-14 team and made them into a juggernaut.

 

I say over and over he took over a team that yes I guess had issues and salary cap problems, but were in the playoff hunt in 2016 and lost in OT week 16.

 

McD took that team (a meaningless loss in week 17) and went from 7-9 to 9-7 and a Dalton miracle to the playoffs. 

 

Then they drafted Allen and decided to tear down the offense even more the following year and named NATAN PETERMAN the starter, when they had the #7 pick that needed to  be fast-tracked or mentored by a veteran early in the season.  They went 6-10.

 

Now 4 straight playoffs, but all ended badly (and three pointing the finger at coaching).     

 

 

And I have to again point out how this coaching staff coddled and stunted Allen.  

 

300 yards passing is generally used as a starting point with QB's.  It took Allen 28 starts to pass that # (part of McD's incredible 42 game stretch).

 

A look at his peers.

 

Burrow - 300 yards game 2 and 5X's in 10 games for a putrid Cincy team his rookie season

Mahomes - First game 284, 300 third game (and scary how easy thereafter).

Rodgers - Third game (yes I know on the bench behind Favre, not Peterman).

Lawrence - Game 1!!!!

Pickett - Game 1 (had to throw him in as it was vs. the Bills)🤣.

Jackson - Game 8

Herbert - Game 1!!!

Prescott - Game 9, however 8-1 and every game prior 227-290 yards

[LabattBlue]

Not even making it to the AFCCG the last two seasons is a bad look for BB & McD….but I guess as long as Allen can make them look good by qualifying for the playoffs, that all is well at OBD. 
 

When Allen is 30, and they still haven’t won a SB, the same people will be coming here making excuses and proclaiming that all is still well at OBD. 

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

I don’t think this is a fair analogy.  Home runs is one small simple thing.   Playing qb is completely different, the qb is more than anything the position most responsible for team success in any sport.   Allen leads the league in air yards and turnovers and at the bottom in RAC.  Placement pace and taking the easy options can improve those things.  I know it’s not cool to suggest Allen should improve in some areas but I feel that way. I also think he is the greatest thing that has happened to this franchise in a generation.  I just think there is something to the thought that Allen tries to do too much too often.  He does not need to.  Maybe the right personality at coordinator would be able to influence that.  

Josh Allen's level of total production is at the very very top of the league. There is no meaningful upside. We need to hope he can maintain that level of play.  If his production dropped to the level of 10th best QB in the league, the Bills would struggle to win 8 games. 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

I don’t think this is a fair analogy.  Home runs is one small simple thing.   Playing qb is completely different, the qb is more than anything the position most responsible for team success in any sport.   Allen leads the league in air yards and turnovers and at the bottom in RAC.  Placement pace and taking the easy options can improve those things.  I know it’s not cool to suggest Allen should improve in some areas but I feel that way. I also think he is the greatest thing that has happened to this franchise in a generation.  I just think there is something to the thought that Allen tries to do too much too often.  He does not need to.  Maybe the right personality at coordinator would be able to influence that.  

Allen leads the league in TO's because he fumbles the ball.  Allen only had TWO more INT's then Mahomes & Burrow.  TWO over 16 games!  That's a rounding error.

 

And Allen loses more fumbles then Mahome & Burrow because he runs the ball a lot more.  Allen also has to deal with a bad O line where he's often under immediate pressure when he drops back to throw. Immediate pressure leads to fumbles as he navigates looking downfield to make a throw or is blown up from behind. 

 

And blaming Allen for the poor RAC (or YAC) based on ball placement is just plain wrong.  This criticism was used back in 2019/20 as Allen was bursting onto the scene as a way to take shots at the guy.  But anyone who has actually watched the Bills play knows that Allen has fine ball placement.  The reality is that most of the Bills skill players are not very fast and are unable to make defenders miss.  They also do a piss poor job of breaking tackles. 

 

My experience is that Allen will place a ball perfectly, the ball is caught and the Bills player immediately tackled for a 4 yard gain.  Rinse and repeat over and over and over again. There is almost never any real separation and we all jump up and shout hallelujah on those rare instances when a guy actually outruns a defender or breaks their tackle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DCofNC]

23 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Moments after the Bengals game ended, I said changes are needed, but will not happen.

 

And now that's official.  We are headed for a minor regression next year--we'll be good, we'll win a lot of games, we'll kick the crap out of some 4 win team early in the year...but we'll bow out of the playoffs at the same spot or earlier next season...and our record will be a few losses greater next season.

 

And another year of Josh's career will be gone. And the heat will grow.

We'll probably see the coordinator changes NEXT season....and then more kool aid drinkers will start to think "Maybe it really is McDermott!"

 

It's tough going into an entire season thinking "there's not much to see here."

 

The upward trajectory this franchise has had for several years now is gone.

 

 

Some of us knew that was crap from the beginning.

 

🤷‍♂️

Exactly.  I carry zero hope into next year.  I won’t be surprised to miss the playoffs.

[Nextmanup]

41 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Not even making it to the AFCCG the last two seasons is a bad look for BB & McD….but I guess as long as Allen can make them look good by qualifying for the playoffs, that all is well at OBD. 
 

When Allen is 30, and they still haven’t won a SB, the same people will be coming here making excuses and proclaiming that all is still well at OBD. 

Those are the same people who were telling us things were going well when Russ Brandon was the frigging GM of the team!  They will ALWAYS tell you things are going well.

And then when we get our butts kicked in a divisional round playoff game--they disappear! 

 

I'm still laughing at some of the users who have not shown their faces here since the Bengals game!

 

Maybe they were traumatized?

 

Think of some of the biggest posters here, who post about 100 times a day....where are they now?

 

 

[Billever76]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Bills fans have have recently shown me that most have no patience for building a SB team. Todays society wants instant gratification...like a drive up window type service. They see other teams like the Rams & Bucs build it quick and win it all and want the same. They are anomalies and not the norm!

 

 

THE most successful NFL franchise the last 15-20 years has been our hated enemy the New England Patriots. The current had the NFLs best HC and HAD the NFL's GOAT at QB. Since losing Brady they haven't won much since and he won a SB with the Bucs.

 

Second best team has been the Kansas City Chiefs, 162 games, 117 wins, 45 losses. Their HC Andy Reid had built a playoff team in his first season going from a 2-14 season without to an 11-5 with. Let's face it, the man knew who to hire as his assistant coaches and how to build a disciplined team. He managed that with QB Alex Smith.(who Buffalo also went after at the time). Reid realized that Smith was just a game manager and wasn't going to get him to the big dance. 

 

Hence he traded up with Buffalo to get Patrick Mahomes, a player that wasn't graded very highly and was from an "air raid" scheme. Mahomes was like 4th rated behind Trubisky, Kizer, Watson. You know who was rated 6th, Nathan Peterman.

 

It took SEVEN years for Reid to take his KC Chiefs to the SB and this was with an experienced HC who was a 14 year winning HC with the Philadelphia Eagles. In which it took him SIX years to get his Eagles into a SB with McNabb at QB... they lost to NE 21-24 in 2004. (You know who his ST's coach was that season?)

 

Reid is basically an offensive genius with currently one of the best young QB's in the league.  It takes time and some good fortune to get a team to the SB.

 

Bills fans forget that this is Brandon Beane's, McD's first time at GM, HC and they are still learning as they go. 

 

Hopefully now they have learned that they need a much, much better offensive line and a better pass rush. More than one top pass rusher too. (Probably should have found a way to keep Jerry Hughes) I have faith that these men can get the job done for the Buffalo Bills. 

 

13-3 with all the freakin adversity that this team faced this season is nothing short of brilliant IMHO. Injuries, sickness, snowstorms, blizzards a home game in a different city. A HEART ATTACK on the field during a game and the HC knew the right thing to do. These are some great men this franchise has running it and Bills fans should just stop with all this negative crap! 

Other teams build superbowl teams in half the time McDermott and this staff have been here...we are going on yr 7 now of this regime...we are no closer now than we were 3 yrs ago!....you can continue to hang your hat on a coaching staff who without josh allen would have this team around a 7-10 record at best!...everyone holds this staff so high bc they accredit the drought being broke to them...thing is the turnaround of this franchise is bc of Josh Allen and diggs...these coaches have held him back from reaching his peak with their outdated approach to the modern nfl

[PBF81]

45 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Remember we are told that the Bills were 13-3 this year.  It is the one defense heard over and over.  

 

This is a fan board and the many here look to McD as a messiah, who turned around a 2-14 team and made them into a juggernaut.

 

I say over and over he took over a team that yes I guess had issues and salary cap problems, but were in the playoff hunt in 2016 and lost in OT week 16.

 

McD took that team (a meaningless loss in week 17) and went from 7-9 to 9-7 and a Dalton miracle to the playoffs. 

 

Then they drafted Allen and decided to tear down the offense even more the following year and named NATAN PETERMAN the starter, when they had the #7 pick that needed to  be fast-tracked or mentored by a veteran early in the season.  They went 6-10.

 

Now 4 straight playoffs, but all ended badly (and three pointing the finger at coaching).     

 

 

And I have to again point out how this coaching staff coddled and stunted Allen.  

 

300 yards passing is generally used as a starting point with QB's.  It took Allen 28 starts to pass that # (part of McD's incredible 42 game stretch).

 

A look at his peers.

 

Burrow - 300 yards game 2 and 5X's in 10 games for a putrid Cincy team his rookie season

Mahomes - First game 284, 300 third game (and scary how easy thereafter).

Rodgers - Third game (yes I know on the bench behind Favre, not Peterman).

Lawrence - Game 1!!!!

Pickett - Game 1 (had to throw him in as it was vs. the Bills)🤣.

Jackson - Game 8

Herbert - Game 1!!!

Prescott - Game 9, however 8-1 and every game prior 227-290 yards

 

Great post, and I would add this in relation to a few of your comments ... 

 

"This is a fan board and the many here look to McD as a messiah,..." 

 

It is a fan board, and fans otherwise in general.  Nice guys are liked, McD's a nice guy.  Levy was incredibly well liked, but he did nothing as a HC prior to coming here, in fact, I have no idea why Polian selected him of all possibilities.  He was a sub-.500 coach (31-42, .425) with KC prior to coming to Buffalo, and with ZERO significant NFL coaching otherwise.  He stayed, not because he could get us a championship, but because he was a great guy, and he was.  

 

But sometimes that's the "tough decision," to get rid of the nice guy that can't get it done, or perhaps relegate him to another role, which is unheard of in the NFL.  For example, put McD at DC and bring in an offensive-minded HC.  Hell, give McD the same money he's making now.  I've never understood the bickering over paying a HC up to $10M when he's the one that decides the direction that your team is going, and when numerous players make more than that.  

 

Anyway, most coaches wouldn't accept that on pride alone, but that's what needs to be done here, it's pretty clear.  It won't happen for that reason tho, until Allen's spent, and then we get the next "QB quest" with coaches "that aren't as good as McD," ... and we'll wonder why not.  LOL  

 

"McD took that team (a meaningless loss in week 17) and went from 7-9 to 9-7 and a Dalton miracle to the playoffs."  

 

It's quite clear that this team is no better than the average 6.6 win teams we had since our last playoff appearance and prior to McD getting here, without Allen.  Take him out of the mix and you don't even have an average team.   Beane's done nothing significant on his watch, another issue similar in nature.  

 

Allen does everything.  He has half of our rushing TDs.  Imagine Keenum or Barkley running this offense.  What, 7-10, tops?  

 

How many times has the running game powered this team to a win over a team with a good defense?  

How many times has the defense powered this team to a win over a team with a good offense?  

 

I'm sure that there's an exception or two, but it doesn't happen for the most part.  Allen has to do everything, and it's pretty clear that the coaches don't challenge him on his risks because they know he's carrying their water.  

 

"And I have to again point out how this coaching staff coddled and stunted Allen.  

300 yards passing is generally used as a starting point with QB's.  It took Allen 28 starts to pass that # (part of McD's incredible 42 game stretch)."  

 

Here's my take on that.  All of the QBs that you named had prolific success in college football.  Allen did not.  Allen posted a mere two 300-yard games at Wyoming, and only three more over 250, and none were against teams that ever challenge for an NCAA title.  Allen went up largely against non-NFL bound competitiont, whereas the others you named did not, they regularly played against players that are now in the NFL.  Rodgers probably comes closest to Allen.  

 

Mahomes was probably the most prolific, 22 of his 32 games were over 300, five were over 500, 11 over 400.  I was surprised that he wasn't among the first few picks and I recall wondering why everyone thought that Trubisky was so good as to be 2nd overall.  Then again it was Chicago.  

 

Anyway, I'm surprised that Allen's done what he's done.  He's very bright and I give him the credit for his own development, which fuels your argument that with better coaching he'd be much better.  Obviously I agree.  

 

He may have come up to speed faster with better coaching, but I never would have expected him to come up like the others given that his learning-curve in that way was far steeper.  Look at Picket for example, in his Sr. season he had 11 of 13 games over 250, 8 of 13 over 300, 3 over 400, and 1 over 500.  In Allen's Jr. season, his last at Wyoming, he had 1 game over 234 yards, 328 and 2 TDs against Gardner-Webb.  Even his Sophomore season, only 1 game over 300, against UNLV.  

 

His development IMO, which agreed, could have been faster and better, has been nothing short of remarkable otherwise.  

 

We knew that Burrow was going to be good just watching him dismantle Clemson and their 3rd-ranked scoring D in the NC game.  Similar for Lawrence, who also came out as a Jr.  But Allen never had the chance to develop against that level of competition.  It's incredibly rare for a QB to learn to do that in the NFL.  

 

[Utah John]

McBeane have built one of the best regular-season teams in the NFL.  They should routinely rack up 10-12 win seasons, and go x-1 in the playoffs.  x being 0 or 1 or 2  I don't see them going x-0

 

The Bills have a system and they stick to it.  It's too predictable for the coordinators on good teams not to be able to figure out ways to attack it.  

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Utah John said:

McBeane have built one of the best regular-season teams in the NFL.  They should routinely rack up 10-12 win seasons, and go x-1 in the playoffs.  x being 0 or 1 or 2  I don't see them going x-0

 

The Bills have a system and they stick to it.  It's too predictable for the coordinators on good teams not to be able to figure out ways to attack it.  

All very true. So the question is if we all know that, why don’t the Bills coaches? The performance against the Bengals was unworthy on all levels. When a player has a sub par game, it’s clear someone had a bad day, or is injured…it happens. When EVERYONE underperforms, I blame the coaches. 

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

All very true. So the question is if we all know that, why don’t the Bills coaches? The performance against the Bengals was unworthy on all levels. When a player has a sub par game, it’s clear someone had a bad day, or is injured…it happens. When EVERYONE underperforms, I blame the coaches. 

 

Can't see the forest for the trees thing I suppose.  Good question.  A refusal to want to make the tough decisions for one or more reasons likely being the reason why nothing changes.  That's when ownership needs to step in, but Kim is who-knows-where and Terry doesn't seem to have the gumption.  

[Billsfan1972]

38 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Great post, and I would add this in relation to a few of your comments ... 

 

"This is a fan board and the many here look to McD as a messiah,..." 

 

It is a fan board, and fans otherwise in general.  Nice guys are liked, McD's a nice guy.  Levy was incredibly well liked, but he did nothing as a HC prior to coming here, in fact, I have no idea why Polian selected him of all possibilities.  He was a sub-.500 coach (31-42, .425) with KC prior to coming to Buffalo, and with ZERO significant NFL coaching otherwise.  He stayed, not because he could get us a championship, but because he was a great guy, and he was.  

 

But sometimes that's the "tough decision," to get rid of the nice guy that can't get it done, or perhaps relegate him to another role, which is unheard of in the NFL.  For example, put McD at DC and bring in an offensive-minded HC.  Hell, give McD the same money he's making now.  I've never understood the bickering over paying a HC up to $10M when he's the one that decides the direction that your team is going, and when numerous players make more than that.  

 

Anyway, most coaches wouldn't accept that on pride alone, but that's what needs to be done here, it's pretty clear.  It won't happen for that reason tho, until Allen's spent, and then we get the next "QB quest" with coaches "that aren't as good as McD," ... and we'll wonder why not.  LOL  

 

"McD took that team (a meaningless loss in week 17) and went from 7-9 to 9-7 and a Dalton miracle to the playoffs."  

 

It's quite clear that this team is no better than the average 6.6 win teams we had since our last playoff appearance and prior to McD getting here, without Allen.  Take him out of the mix and you don't even have an average team.   Beane's done nothing significant on his watch, another issue similar in nature.  

 

Allen does everything.  He has half of our rushing TDs.  Imagine Keenum or Barkley running this offense.  What, 7-10, tops?  

 

How many times has the running game powered this team to a win over a team with a good defense?  

How many times has the defense powered this team to a win over a team with a good offense?  

 

I'm sure that there's an exception or two, but it doesn't happen for the most part.  Allen has to do everything, and it's pretty clear that the coaches don't challenge him on his risks because they know he's carrying their water.  

 

"And I have to again point out how this coaching staff coddled and stunted Allen.  

300 yards passing is generally used as a starting point with QB's.  It took Allen 28 starts to pass that # (part of McD's incredible 42 game stretch)."  

 

Here's my take on that.  All of the QBs that you named had prolific success in college football.  Allen did not.  Allen posted a mere two 300-yard games at Wyoming, and only three more over 250, and none were against teams that ever challenge for an NCAA title.  Allen went up largely against non-NFL bound competitiont, whereas the others you named did not, they regularly played against players that are now in the NFL.  Rodgers probably comes closest to Allen.  

 

Mahomes was probably the most prolific, 22 of his 32 games were over 300, five were over 500, 11 over 400.  I was surprised that he wasn't among the first few picks and I recall wondering why everyone thought that Trubisky was so good as to be 2nd overall.  Then again it was Chicago.  

 

Anyway, I'm surprised that Allen's done what he's done.  He's very bright and I give him the credit for his own development, which fuels your argument that with better coaching he'd be much better.  Obviously I agree.  

 

He may have come up to speed faster with better coaching, but I never would have expected him to come up like the others given that his learning-curve in that way was far steeper.  Look at Picket for example, in his Sr. season he had 11 of 13 games over 250, 8 of 13 over 300, 3 over 400, and 1 over 500.  In Allen's Jr. season, his last at Wyoming, he had 1 game over 234 yards, 328 and 2 TDs against Gardner-Webb.  Even his Sophomore season, only 1 game over 300, against UNLV.  

 

His development IMO, which agreed, could have been faster and better, has been nothing short of remarkable otherwise.  

 

We knew that Burrow was going to be good just watching him dismantle Clemson and their 3rd-ranked scoring D in the NC game.  Similar for Lawrence, who also came out as a Jr.  But Allen never had the chance to develop against that level of competition.  It's incredibly rare for a QB to learn to do that in the NFL.  

 

Regardless he was the 7th pick and was to be the missing piece.  The Bills went 6-10 his rookie season, needed to bring him in and push him and let him learn on the job and more repetition and passing.  

 

BTW Tyrod threw for 300 with Rex and of course couldn't with McD and I'm still astounded he went 42 games without a single 300 yard passing game. 

 

It only emphasises his conservative and defensive nature. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

300 yards passing is generally used as a starting point with QB's.  It took Allen 28 starts to pass that # (part of McD's incredible 42 game stretch).

 

By the way, your post reminded me of this cartoon.  These were the best, particularly the one about Bledsoe.  But speaking of Trubisky and Chicago ... ROFLMAO  

 

 

 

LMAO, here's the Bledsoe one.  Skip to the 3:10 mark.  ROFLMAO  

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

28 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Regardless he was the 7th pick and was to be the missing piece.  The Bills went 6-10 his rookie season, needed to bring him in and push him and let him learn on the job and more repetition and passing.  

 

BTW Tyrod threw for 300 with Rex and of course couldn't with McD and I'm still astounded he went 42 games without a single 300 yard passing game. 

 

It only emphasises his conservative and defensive nature. 

 

All I'm saying is that Allen was more of a known project of sorts than a plug-n-play QB.  This further reinforces both McD's & Beane's luck.

[BillMafia716ix]

As long as Josh Allen is here. The Bills will be in contention. That’s all you can ask for really but I’m not letting Josh off the hook though either. He has to play better and protect the football. I just seen Patrick Mahomes beat Joe Burrow on literally one leg being down multiple WR’s. Would I like to see Josh with more weapons? Of course but sometimes you gotta work with what you got everything ain’t gonna be perfect. 

[T master]

Was Don Shula, Bill Walsh, Bill Parcels, Bill Belichek, & others on their way to a championship when they took their first HC ing job ? Then ho along did it take Andy Reid to get his first SB ?

 

I believe if we look back there would be plenty examples of HC's that failed while learning exactly what it takes to get their first Championship .

[Billsfan1972]

20 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

All I'm saying is that Allen was more of a known project of sorts than a plug-n-play QB.  This further reinforces both McD's & Beane's luck.

Regardless it's over and done with and McD is back as head coach. We can only hope that he has learned. First and foremost will be what happens in free agency and the draft.

 

And yes 2023 will be Superbowl or bust in my opinion. Anything less is unacceptable (barring an Allen injury).

 

However what I expect from the Stadium Wall will be excuses if the Bills come up short.

[frostbitmic]

Undecided ... Six years or whatever into this and I still don't know if they'll win one, that's a problem. At the end of the last couple of seasons, I was positive they'd win at least a few Super Bowls.

[Goin Breakdown]

2 hours ago, Utah John said:

McBeane have built one of the best regular-season teams in the NFL.  They should routinely rack up 10-12 win seasons, and go x-1 in the playoffs.  x being 0 or 1 or 2  I don't see them going x-0

 

The Bills have a system and they stick to it.  It's too predictable for the coordinators on good teams not to be able to figure out ways to attack it.  

Opposing players have already said that the Bills run a basic defense and they know what they're doing. 

[starrymessenger]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We’re about to find out a lot about our front office and coaching staff this season. I dont think we can answer until after this season.

Personally I think we've seen enough to know better than to expect a meaningful change in direction. But given the apparent decision to run it back I think your approach is 100% correct. After the last two years disappointments McD and his coordinators need to be in a make or break situation. In case things don't work out, 2023 should also be used to identify promising contingent replacement candidates for each of these positions. Having a deliberative process for this is much better than knee jerk firings and improves the chances of getting it right. Not sure where Pegs would go for his advice though and the mere existence of the process would risk creating an in-season distraction.

I think McD was the right choice for the job when hired given what was required at the time. I think he and his assistants did a really good job. But to take the next step means McD having to fundamentally change his philosophical approach to the game and really that means becoming a different person (given how entrenched his approach seems to be). And of course it would mean acquiring a skill set in designing an offence he currently does not have. Alternatively the Bills could fire Dorsey and hire a young, more experienced and creative coordinator but given what I suspect to be McD's suffocating control of pretty much all operations it would only be a matter of time before a clash of opposing mindsets occurred. Not sure what the Bills were thinking when they hired Dorsey (other than hiring someone who McD would not perceive as a threat). I don't think a rookie OC has ever gone to a championship. Dorsey's shortcomings were painfully apparent throughout the year. 
People get criticized for comparing Putin to Hitler, but the truth is that there are strong and compelling similarities between them. To me, even if not the same guy, McD reminds me of Jauron. Before flaming away consider that Dick did not have a supportive owner, had therefore less talent to work with and certainly did not have a generational talent at the all important position. 

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

........certainly did not have a generational talent......

After six seasons McD's results should be evaluated only against other coaches, past and present who have the advantage of one of the elite QBs in the league.  Comparing him to Andy Reid / Dononvan McNabb is far less relevent than comparing him to Andy Reid/Patrick Mahomes.   There are a number of instances of QBs who went to many playoff games with one head coach but only won a championship after a change in head coach.  Peyton Manning, John Elway are the two most prominent.  Did things finally "click' for him in his tenth season, or did Mike Shanahan have a skill set Dan Reeves did not?

[starrymessenger]

8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

After six seasons McD's results should be evaluated only against other coaches, past and present who have the advantage of one of the elite QBs in the league.  Comparing him to Andy Reid / Dononvan McNabb is far less relevent than comparing him to Andy Reid/Patrick Mahomes.   There are a number of instances of QBs who went to many playoff games with one head coach but only won a championship after a change in head coach.  Peyton Manning, John Elway are the two most prominent.  Did things finally "click' for him in his tenth season, or did Mike Shanahan have a skill set Dan Reeves did not?

He drafted T. Davis, a HOF RB. Bijan anyone? Point is that's not the kind of pick that McD would ever be onside with.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

I just seen Patrick Mahomes beat Joe Burrow on literally one leg being down multiple WR’s

 

Mahomes held the Bengals to 20 points? I knew he was good but that's an unbelievable performance.