Your Gut Instinct: Are Beane/McDermott On Track to Win Championship(s) or Wasting J. Allen's talent?

[US Egg]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

You do understand Elway needed a HC change before he won it all? Or don't you know things?

I don’t need you to explain anything to me, preach to those whose admiration you seek, Mr. Who sees it all.

Edited February 4, 2023 by I am the egg man

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Chaos said:

You do understand Elway needed a HC change before he won it all? Or don't you know things?

I mean, he's an egg. The fact that he can type at all is an accomplishment.

[Taro Nimbus]

This board is so depressing in the offseason.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, No_Matter_What said:

Voted on track to winning SB but that's not what I think.

 

I think neither of them is an obstacle to do so. They are both doing good job. But it's not enough to win SB in a league with 32 teams and 6-7 each year capable of winning it all. 

 

You need right circumstances and luck. We didn't have it last two years. And maybe we will never have. 

 

They are making mistakes, everybody is. But they are not wasting Allen. I might say that about Beane next year if he doesn't try (big time) to assemble better OL this offseason. We'll see.

Beane rarely selects olineman because he's being pressured by his boss to select defense. This couldn't be more obvious based on our last several drafts. 

[US Egg]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I mean, he's an egg. The fact that he can type at all is an accomplishment.

…..and am chewing gum while doing so.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

To my read opinions of posters on TBD are split on the Bills general direction.  One group thinks the Bills should stay the course and keeping doing the same things and that through some experience/maturation process the Bills will get better results.  The second group thinks the coaching staff has peaked and won't be able to do further in the playoffs than it has.   There is a smaller group that seems to think coaching changes automatically results in disaster and as long as your current coaches are competent NFL coaches and you don't should tempt the fates with a change. 

I am in the second group.  I am not sure thinking team McDermott has peaked means "fire everybody", but I feel like any further failure to progress means something should change. 

I may be guilty of overrating Josh Allen, but I think any current NFL coaching staff would get the Bills 2022 Roster to the playoffs, simply because Allen is that good.  So the goals have to be set higher than that. 

McD lost my completely when he didn’t fire at least 1 of his coordinators . Mof both should’ve been fired. 
 

Dorsey should’ve been fired just based alone on why the running scheme wasn’t synced with the passing game to me that’s definitely a  reason for him to be fired. That’s borderline insane when u think of it. He had the whole off-season to come up with an offense where the running and passing games work together in synchronization. He should be fired ! 
 

Frazier should’ve been fired after 13secs but now there should’ve been nowhere to hide after that ass kicking we got from the Bengals. 
 

I don’t believe these coordinators would’ve kept there jobs if they coached for any other competent organization.  
 

Seems like McD loyalty is getting in the way of him doing his job correctly. The problem is he should be loyal to the Bills organization and the Bills Mafia not a few individuals. Loyalty works both ways and his is getting in the way of us getting a title. 
 

Last but not least look at this roster now it’s borderline awful other then Josh and Milano we have no building blocks . McBeane has fumbled the last 4 drafts in horrific fashion and there philosophies are almost as bad as everything else. We will never win with these guys running the show. 

[Marcus Aurelius]

Combining Beane and McDermott is a false choice question, I believe.

Beane is the main impediment to winning a Championship.

[LABILLBACKER]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I share the concern. Because I admire McDermott as a person and he is currently the coach of the Buffalo Bills, I hope he exceeds what appear to be his limits. All that said, Terry Pegula should have Ben Johnson on speed dial, because I suspect he is the next hot OC to get a shot at HC.

How confident are you Beane can pull off that requirement? That's the correct Rx, I agree.

I think 99% of fans realize this. As you accurately said earlier this is an offensive league with rules that further favor the offense.  We desperately need a WR2 and OL overhaul. Ben Johnson would be amazing for this team. The strategy from Day1 should've been surround Josh with excellence. And other than Diggs that didn't happen. 

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, elijah said:

Check the board for the first time since the Bengals game.. And you’re telling me that so far 70% of people (19-8 in the poll currently) think there’s a better chance that we don’t win a championship under McBeane and Allen? 

 

It was a rough playoff loss and embarrassing coaching, true. 

 

McDermott is still a top 8 coach in the league, true. 

 

Allen is still a top 3 quarterback in the league, true. 

 

McDermott & Allen are still a top 5 QB/Coach combo in the league, true. 

 

The first statement can be true at the same time as the next three. It’s unfortunate the way we lost, and it was outright embarrassing for the organization and the city & fans that invest their lives into this team for 5-6 months of the year, and others that do year round. But the amount of criticism I’ve seen surrounding Allen/McBeane since this loss is borderline unfathomable. Confidence and faith should still be very high that these guys bring us atleast 1 Lombardi, if not more.

 

I was having the same meltdown the day after the game, and maybe even a couple after that. But come on, it’s 2 weeks later. Level yourselves. The Bills are still in a very elite class of the NFL and have turned into a model organization. It’ll come. 

 

And on that note, I guess I’ll have to keep TBD out of my search bar a little longer if this is still the direction conversations are trending 😭 

These are some very measured opinions, and agreed.

 

This is an overreaction from a bunch of guys who are upset about an embarrassing loss and we deserved to lose the way we played.  I’ll agree Frasier needs to go.

[BlazinBill]

The entire offensive roster make up this year seemed off to me, as for some reason we spoke about heavy tight end use and how a receiving back was needed - we draft Cook and sign OJ Howard - I'll admit I was very intrigued and then we cut Howard and barely used Cook. Then we don't really incorporate TE in the game at all.

Looking back those moves however it just proved Dorsey was in over his head and really didn't have a solid plan.

Offense had zero identity this year and to me despite it's success just seemed dysfunctional. Josh and Diggs can only do so much and mid season they seemed way off.

I repeatedly lied to myself thinking something was going to click late December and peak in Playoffs and they would ride off into the sunset with a Super Bowl victory.

Sadly Josh can't will this team by himself and was cooked in the last game as he just seemed ill prepared. We never developed a way to win unless JA was a freak and played Like he did in last year's playoffs- very unrealistic 

Then comes Beanes presser talking about how Dorsey is learning and had a lot of success. Problem here is this is the NFL and a first time OC is absolutely wasting the talent of this roster or basically JA17. It's really the first time Beane has had me in doubt.

So in one hand you have a short window and sign Von freaking Miller and the other your grooming someone to be an OC- it's just talking out of both sides of your mouth to me.

McDermott defense although good is completely predictable come playoffs and Frazier isn't the guy to get us past that, for some reason we just get picked apart every time it's a top tier QB.

I'll always bleed Buffalo Bills and be super elevated and over reactive to the season ups and downs but when we sit back in this bye week reflecting on things I'm really not sure how this plays out next year- we are cap strapped and staying the course

 

Neat

 

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

Combining Beane and McDermott is a false choice question, I believe.

Beane is the main impediment to winning a Championship.

If one component is broken, then the combined component is broken. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

You do understand Elway needed a HC change before he won it all? Or don't you know things?

 

 The biggest thing Elway needed was a run game to take pressure off him. Something Reeves didn't provide, but Shanahan did. When Reeves departed the Broncos were a bottom 5ish running team and once Shanahan got here he immediately established a yearly top 5 rushing attack. In the 2 years they won the Super Bowl they finished 2nd & 4th in rushing even though Elway only averaged 150 yards per year.  

 

 We've had 2 straight OCs that refused to run the ball once Allen's play took a leap prior to 2020. Many of us here have been begging the Bills to start running it more for a couple years now. The 1st OC then leaves to become a HC his team is instantly a top 8 team in rushing attempts and top 4 in rushing yards.

 

 The positive effect would be two fold. 1 it would take pressure off of Josh and establishing a run game would help open up the passing game, especially the play action game. Want to get the defenses out of the 2 deep safty look this offense sees alot, this is one way of doing it. And 2 how do you protect a defense you don't trust or under performs in certain situations? By limiting their time on the field. I think this offense would be lethal with a good, consistent running game.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[wppete]

At this point I really feel McDermott is wasting Josh prime years. Someone a week or two ago started a thread about McDermott not having a killer instinct. I agree with that, he is a passive person with tempered emotions. Got to have a killer instinct with a QB like Josh. Need to destroy teams and intimate. McDermott isn’t that guy. IMHO. 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, JROC INTEL said:

I think it’s possible with these coaches, but a lot less likely. I was all for keeping all the coaches, because I believe in learning and growth along with stability. But this year has shown that maybe there is a cap to the ability to learn. I see a lot of the same mistakes over and over. Example: tossing a 30 yard pass on 3rd and 2. This is bad coaching. Hardly using any trick plays. This is coaching. 
 

i still think we have one of the best teams in the NFL but most of it is because of Josh. 
 

I believe we need a more physical team over coaching though, specifically linemen. At the end of the days, the players didn’t play well enough. 
 

the loss is on everyone. It was hard to watch, but we are still close, the mentality needs to be to get back to work and take the extra step. Get in the weight room. 

While I agree that 3rd and 2 was stupid, unless that were going for it regardless on fourth down.  Add to that it was a perfect pass and surprise surprise Davis dropped it. If he had caught it that would have been the second contested catch all year (yes he had one vs Pitt).

 

I however keep going on about first in 10 at the Cincinnati 39-yard line and three plays that went nowhere where the Bills needed at least a field goal at a crucial time.  5 yards and Bass is in range.

 

As bad as the Bills were, momentum, the crowd, some adjustments and the second half kick and the game could have changed. We've seen this before usually from other teams (again twice from my memory in the McD era, vs. TB a loss, and vs. Baltimore this year).

[OldTimer1960]

It is very hard to win championships and that involves some level of luck (avoidance of bad breaks, injuries, bad calls, etc).  Every team should strive to win a championship, but really all any organization can do is put together the best possible team they can and compete.  Having the most talented team or the best coach is often not enough.  Some (much?) of the disappointment in the Bills this year is related to the false belief that they clearly had more talent than any other team and therefore, it must be that someone f*cked up because they failed to win it all.

 

I believe that the Bills are currently in the top group of organizations in terms of how well they are run.  Are they perfect?  Of course not, but neither is any other team.  I think it would be a major mistake to get rid of Brandon Beane or Sean McDermott.  The Bills are competing at the level of the very top teams right now.  

[Chaos]

4 minutes ago, wppete said:

At this point I really feel McDermott is wasting Josh prime years. Someone a week or two ago started a thread about McDermott not having a killer instinct. I agree with that, he is a passive person with tempered emotions. Got to have a killer instinct with a QB like Josh. Need to destroy teams and intimate. McDermott isn’t that guy. IMHO. 

People will have hard time understanding a tennis to football analogy.  But the Bills defense is like a great baseline player who can out rally most opponents but can't ever beat the top serve and volley guys. 

1 minute ago, OldTimer1960 said:

It is very hard to win championships and that involves some level of luck (avoidance of bad breaks, injuries, bad calls, etc).  Every team should strive to win a championship, but really all any organization can do is put together the best possible team they can and compete.  Having the most talented team or the best coach is often not enough.  Some (much?) of the disappointment in the Bills this year is related to the false belief that they clearly had more talent than any other team and therefore, it must be that someone f*cked up because they failed to win it all.

 

I believe that the Bills are currently in the top group of organizations in terms of how well they are run.  Are they perfect?  Of course not, but neither is any other team.  I think it would be a major mistake to get rid of Brandon Beane or Sean McDermott.  The Bills are competing at the level of the very top teams right now.  

The are definitely a consistent top 25% of the league team. 

[Mango]

I am really frustrated with Beane and have been for a few seasons now. 
 

But Christ, if the Pegula run Sabres have taught us anything it’s that things can always get worse. 
 

I give Beane an opportunity to figure it out before moving on. That is if the staff makes it through this season without the roster imploding, which I think is non-zero chance unfortunately. 

[JohnNord]

I don’t see the Bills wasting Josh Allen’s talent.  They do need to give him him more on offense.  This season the Bills showed a lot of faith in Davis, McKenzie, and Brown - you can argue all three didn’t step.  On the OL they let Kromer talk them into signing Pro Bowl guard Rodger Saffold and he…sucked.  Then you had Jameson Crowder who was injured for most of the season.  
 

Pretty confident they don’t make the same mistake twice 

[Billsfan1972]

The Bills have a generational quarterback and they babied him from day one. They gave him no help the first two years and he went 28 games before his first 300-yard passing one. Show me any quarterback that went that long without a 300-yard game.  This was Josh freaking Allen.....  To me they could have worked on issues earlier.

 

Sorry this was a shiny new toy that should have been played with and built around day one. But let's not forget who the choice was to start the 2018 season it was Nathan Peterman.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[GunnerBill]

I don't recognise any of the above. 

 

Still in with a realistic chance of winning championships

 

is where I'd put myself. There are too many factors that go into it for me to say "on the way to winning Championships".

[GoBills808]

My concern is McDermott is emotionally and intellectually stuck in rebuild mode, and won't be able to further the team beyond that mentality.

 

IMO it takes a certain type of leadership to rebuild a franchise and another to win a Super Bowl and I am unsure as to whether McDermott can make that transition.

[BuffaloRebound]

It’s not an over-reaction after the last 3 playoff losses to think this coaching staff can’t get it done.  KC made our defense look as bad in 2020 as cincy did this year.  Then KC went on to the Super Bowl and Tampa’s D destroyed them.  Cincy’s Offense looked very average against the Ravens before us and KC after us and made us look like clowns.   And 13 seconds speaks for itself.   

I’m sorry, it’s not an over-reaction to have no belief in this coaching staff to be Super Bowl caliber especially on the defensive side.  

[Donuts and Doritos]

Until they invest 1st round draft capital & surround him with weapons other than Diggs & build up a legit O-line, they will be wasting his talents. The O can't be Josh playing Superman all the time. I really hope they're right about keeping Dorsey, cause I don't see it.

[par73]

Last year, they were on a roll (Allen was especially hot), and then 13 seconds happened. This year, they were struggling (as was the QB) heading into the playoffs, and got blown out. I am very concerned at this point that this coaching staff-- with no changes, will get the team to the SB (McDermott only defensive coach in the playoffs, and his/Frazier's D has been awful in the postseason).

[OldTimer1960]

9 minutes ago, par73 said:

Last year, they were on a roll (Allen was especially hot), and then 13 seconds happened. This year, they were struggling (as was the QB) heading into the playoffs, and got blown out. I am very concerned at this point that this coaching staff-- with no changes, will get the team to the SB (McDermott only defensive coach in the playoffs, and his/Frazier's D has been awful in the postseason).

They were 13-3 in a season where the secondary was decimated by injuries, they went through two major blizzards and lost a home game because of that and had a teammate nearly die on the field.  I cannot even imagine what that must have been like.  They lost to a very good Bengals team and lost badly, but I think part of that was mental exhaustion from the Hamlin injury and having to struggle so hard throughout the year.  
 

Yes, outside of the above the team has weaknesses and I am confident that they will try to address them within the constraints of the cap and picking late in every round of the draft.  I think they will try to give Allen more weapons to work with - I am sure that is what they were trying to do by acquiring Cook, Hines and Crowder.  They may have overestimated Gabe Davis and McKenzie and underestimated the poor state of the OL, but I believe they tried.  

[Chaos]

At the one hundred vote count, my initial assessement of evenly split was pretty close.  Based on on votes its closer to a 60/40 split.  

[Goin Breakdown]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

No offense, but you seem to think the fans get a vote or something. We’re really just along for the ride. 

While lining their pockets. Nothing will change. We're all sold on hope i guess 

[Chaos]

27 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

My concern is McDermott is emotionally and intellectually stuck in rebuild mode, and won't be able to further the team beyond that mentality.

 

IMO it takes a certain type of leadership to rebuild a franchise and another to win a Super Bowl and I am unsure as to whether McDermott can make that transition.

 

I think it is the fans who get stuck emotionally.  NFL football is a game where everyone has to follow the same rules.  Some people are just better at the game than others.   For example, this is the Rams situation Sean McVay walked into in 2017:



He is good at football coaching, 2 NFC Championships and 1 Super Bowl during his first four years.  This followed a thirteen year playoff drought, and without the benefit of an elite QB.  

Zac Taylor came into this situation following 15 years of Marvin Lewis Mediocrity. 


He appeared in two AFC championship games his first four seasons winning one.  

 

Bills had so many horrible coaches, that some people actually think the standard NFL new hire is simply horrible, and that is nearly impossible to have a good hire.  The Bills history skews the thinking.

I don't know that a McDermott replacement would be better, but I would be shocked if the results were worse, as long as Josh Allen remains healthy. 
 

[Billsfan1972]

19 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

They were 13-3 in a season where the secondary was decimated by injuries, they went through two major blizzards and lost a home game because of that and had a teammate nearly die on the field.  I cannot even imagine what that must have been like.  They lost to a very good Bengals team and lost badly, but I think part of that was mental exhaustion from the Hamlin injury and having to struggle so hard throughout the year.  
 

Yes, outside of the above the team has weaknesses and I am confident that they will try to address them within the constraints of the cap and picking late in every round of the draft.  I think they will try to give Allen more weapons to work with - I am sure that is what they were trying to do by acquiring Cook, Hines and Crowder.  They may have overestimated Gabe Davis and McKenzie and underestimated the poor state of the OL, but I believe they tried.  

They acquired Hines who is a great back out of the back field and a pass catcher.  Guess what this great coaching staff did with him and his large salary? They didn't throw him the ball or have him involved in the offense. How much confidence does that give you?

Edited February 4, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[nedboy7]

Same garbage different day.  Pathetic really.  Who drafted JA and took the franchise out of the gutter. 

58 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

While lining their pockets. Nothing will change. We're all sold on hope i guess 

 

What team does not want to make money in professional sports.  Do our top of the line facilities make it seem they dont give a *****? 

[OldTimer1960]

56 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

They acquired Hines who is a great back out of the back field and a pass catcher.  Guess what this great coaching staff did with him and his large salary? They didn't throw him the ball or have him involved in the offense. How much confidence does that give you?

Not a complete excuse, but

1. coming to a new team mid-season meant that he had to learn a whole new offense and develop relationships with his new teammates

2. He was also playing Special Teams which drew some of his attention away from learning the new offense

3. The OL was really struggling so RBs needed to be held in to block more often than usual 

4. Singletary and Cook were both playing well ahead of him

 

Do you really think that they purposely drafted Cook and traded for Hines, both pass catching backs, and then forgot about using them?  I think more likely, circumstances like the above made incorporating the backs into the passing game difficult.

 

Specifically regarding Hines, imagine starting a new job at a different company.  Do you think you will understand everything and perform all roles immediately?

[WideNine]

I have lost faith in Frazier's defense.

 

The only sniff he has had at a championship was riding Dungy's coattails with Indy as an assistant in 2006.

 

Just feels like he fields a decent unit that relies on a system discipline that does not present issues for better teams to successfully plan against and attack.

 

Hence why our defense is a sieve in those bigger games. He gets outcoached.

 

I am not reacting in a knee-jerk way. Just look at the numbers with our defense in big games.

 

If the Bills are truly an Org that holds players and coaches accountable... and objectively review performance, at some point they have to ask the question could that coordinator position be improved?

 

If they are not asking that question, they should be.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by WideNine

[Goin Breakdown]

17 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

Same garbage different day.  Pathetic really.  Who drafted JA and took the franchise out of the gutter. 

 

What team does not want to make money in professional sports.  Do our top of the line facilities make it seem they dont give a *****? 

 

20 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

Same garbage different day.  Pathetic really.  Who drafted JA and took the franchise out of the gutter. 

 

What team does not want to make money in professional sports.  Do our top of the line facilities make it seem they dont give a *****? 

Look you can respond like you have no disappointment in the way things have gone. I wish I was like you. Im Not saying at all they don't " give a *****". But if we are going to assume things let's just say that I feel like the coaching staff is full of ego. For 3 years in a row our defense has not been able to get the job done in Big games. Yeah Josh is great, but the coaching staff absolutely did not know he was going to be. None of us can act like this team did us a favor. They took a chance in a guy and they hit BIG. Im glad they did. But now I think they are wasting his talent. If by showing us they care is giving the team a great training facility..ok , awesome. How about they show us they care by actually building an Oline to protect Josh. Not just one year deals to castoffs from other teams. The thread is about my gut instinct. I gave it. 

[billieve420]

I think McDermott as CEO of a team and building culture has done good job despite some questions regarding his coaching on game days. However, I am starting to lose faith if he is the person to get team over the hump and it starts with his defense.
 

I can live with the growing pains on offense with Dorsey being a new coordinator and numbers not being that different from when Daboll was here. Do think he needs to reign in Josh a little bit more in regards to the turnovers and knowing when to take chances in a game. They need to focus in the offseason on developing viable run game which has been problem for years. Pegulas should look into bringing Greg Roman in as a consultant to help assist Dorsey on that front and leave no stone unturned.

On defense believe issue lies with play caller and not the defense in particular. To me McDermott needs to take ownership and take over the play calling on game day. If Frazier wants to leave on his own accord since it doesn’t appear McDermott is willing to fire him so be it.

 

[Chaos]

22 minutes ago, WideNine said:

could that coordinator position be improved?

That is the correct question about all of the coaching positions.  Many Bill's fans carry scars and are only willing to ask the question:  Could the coaching be worse? 
 

It seems at this time the Bills as an organization are willing to let "very good" be the enemy of "excellent"

[nedboy7]

2 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

 

Look you can respond like you have no disappointment in the way things have gone. I wish I was like you. Im Not saying at all they don't " give a *****". But if we are going to assume things let's just say that I feel like the coaching staff is full of ego. For 3 years in a row our defense has not been able to get the job done in Big games. Yeah Josh is great, but the coaching staff absolutely did not know he was going to be. None of us can act like this team did us a favor. They took a chance in a guy and they hit BIG. Im glad they did. But now I think they are wasting his talent. If by showing us they care is giving the team a great training facility..ok , awesome. How about they show us they care by actually building an Oline to protect Josh. Not just one year deals to castoffs from other teams. The thread is about my gut instinct. I gave it. 

 

It's an interesting opinion.  One I do not agree with besides the OL issues we had.  So they dont get any credit for drafting talent like JA, but they get all the criticism if they dont hit.  If you dont understand how this year played out based on many factors then we just dont agree.  The idea that you can just bring in new coach and GM every few years cause you dont win the SB is not really not how you achieve success.  Am I ok if they move on from Frazier and Dorsey?  Sure.  But I am not in this constant negative loop people on here are attached to.  It's way too easy to call 31 teams a year a failure. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

We’re about to find out a lot about our front office and coaching staff this season. I dont think we can answer until after this season.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

My concern is McDermott is emotionally and intellectually stuck in rebuild mode, and won't be able to further the team beyond that mentality.

 

IMO it takes a certain type of leadership to rebuild a franchise and another to win a Super Bowl and I am unsure as to whether McDermott can make that transition.

 

That is a perfectly fair concern. I don't know that the results are in on it, but I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to wonder. Being a good turnaround coach is not the same as being a coach that can become a winner. Jim Harbaugh is an example of that. 

[Solomon Grundy]

This draft will tell me a lot!! 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

3 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

These are some very measured opinions, and agreed.

 

This is an overreaction from a bunch of guys who are upset about an embarrassing loss and we deserved to lose the way we played.  I’ll agree Frasier needs to go.

I think it’s a combination of complete failure on the highest of levels and also realization as presently constructed this variation of the Bills will not win it all. Also people understand that this regime is not capable of changing and learning from past mistakes and they won’t change a thing . Keeping the Coordinators on board is a example of this we will keep drafting players that fit Frasier and Dorsey schemes . I truly believe if McD would’ve canned Frazier and Dorsey the fan base would be applauding him but instead he choose to double down on his guys. At the end of the day the Captain will go down with the ship !