For the Dorsey Haters

[Starr Almighty]

47 minutes ago, Dan said:

Anyone think that maybe they wanted to intentionally throw deep, against a weaker team, to get it all on tape. So maybe they have the next team not sure what to expect. 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Throw deep to open up the underneath for weeks to come.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

12 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I saw somewhere today, think it was the CBS article, saying Herbert was 3.3% big time throw rate, 127 balls thrown behind the line of scrimmage, and had an ADT of 7.0 yards. 

 

 That seems about right from the games I saw.

 

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

And yesterday was pretty good he led the offense to 34 points against a pretty good defense.  And Shakir (drop 7) Knox (drop 4) and McDermott (not taking a field goal) left another 14 points on the field.  

A pretty good defense? They’re 24th in points allowed.

20 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I saw somewhere today, think it was the CBS article, saying Herbert was 3.3% big time throw rate, 127 balls thrown behind the line of scrimmage, and had an ADT of 7.0 yards. 

Probably had something to do with Mike Williams and Allen missing a ton of time.

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

First clip 7 seconds. The WR has a step on him. This is where he should throw the ball. 

Second clip 19 seconds. The QB had a little more than 2 one thousand to throw the ball. He had no time for second read and a player in his face on the right side.

Third clip 32 seconds. The checkdown was being spied on. he might of gotten 5 yards on that play or he might of beat his man. Ball should have been checked

Fourth clip 43 seconds. That ball even if laid up had chances to be tipped and I do not blame Josh for not going for the short pass here.

Fifth clip 53 seconds? you joking me? That defender jumped the rout, would of been an int.

Sixth clip. Beas should have caught that pass all day. enough said here.

Seventh Clip. Perfect Throw. What's the problem?

Eighth clip. 1:30. Oh my JA cant miss this one

Ninth Clip 1:53. Josh saw 2 safeties lurking and didn't like it. I think it had a chance.

Last clip. Also on JA. wrong place to throw

 

So 2 times in the whole game JA should of thrown the ball somewhere else? I can live with this.

 

The way I saw it, the way you beat a blitz is screens. Your Supposed to put your QB in a position for success. Our last OC did a great job of it. This OC is failing.

 

One last thought on this video. When you send Blitzes like this, one of the things they do is disturb the QB's throwing lanes. WR's Also need to leave more room on the outside for these throws to be made along the sideline. There was plenty of blame to be shared on this game.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

First clip 7 seconds. The WR has a step on him. This is where he should throw the ball. 

Second clip 19 seconds. The QB had a little more than 2 one thousand to throw the ball. He had no time for second read and a player in his face on the right side.

Third clip 32 seconds. The checkdown was being spied on. he might of gotten 5 yards on that play or he might of beat his man. Ball should have been checked

Fourth clip 43 seconds. That ball even if laid up had chances to be tipped and I do not blame Josh for not going for the short pass here.

Fifth clip 53 seconds? you joking me? That defender jumped the rout, would of been an int.

Sixth clip. Beas should have caught that pass all day. enough said here.

Seventh Clip. Perfect Throw. What's the problem?

Eighth clip. 1:30. Oh my JA cant miss this one

Ninth Clip 1:53. Josh saw 2 safeties lurking and didn't like it. I think it had a chance.

Last clip. Also on JA. wrong place to throw

 

So 2 times in the whole game JA should of thrown the ball somewhere else? I can live with this.

 

The way I saw it, the way you beat a blitz is screens. Your Supposed to put your QB in a position for success. Our last OC did a great job of it. This OC is failing.

 

One last thought on this video. When you send Blitzes like this, one of the things they do is disturb the QB's throwing lanes. WR's Also need to leave more room on the outside for these throws to be made along the sideline. There was plenty of blame to be shared on this game.

I think the point was other receivers were open on higher percentage passes. Not that Josh made a bad decision every time.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

I’m not seeing a lot of times I wouldn’t have wanted him to throw the deep ball here.  That Beasley play was an absolute mugging by the db wow.  
 

 

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, FireChans said:

I think the point was other receivers were open on higher percentage passes. Not that Josh made a bad decision every time.

go to every clip where they show highlighted WR's. This is what I am referring to. There has to be screen audibles in play here against blitzing teams. Presnap, Josh is given a few options to move from plays.

 

17 seconds. only 3 receiving routs.. What the living heck is up with that?

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Does anyone even consider the coaching!  Dorsey has said on record that his philosophy is to be aggressive.  If Dorsey and Josh are averaging 26 yds per attempted play, or abandoning the run, ultimately it falls on the head coach to reorient the game plan.  Like, “Ken, pull your head out your ass and grind clock”

[PrimeTime101]

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m not seeing a lot of times I wouldn’t have wanted him to throw the deep ball here.  That Beasley play was an absolute mugging by the db wow.  
 

 

I would argue they had beas going to deep on many of those routs.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

17 seconds. only 3 receiving routs.. What the living heck is up with that?

 

Unique situation there. Cover zero blitz on 3rd and 15. It's really not a bad play. Anyone that would have leaked out of the back field likely would have been tackled short. It's a low risk / high reward through because you have one on coverage. 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think the point was other receivers were open on higher percentage passes. Not that Josh made a bad decision every time.

 

This is true on every deep completion in the history of the NFL. It's really a bizarre clip, I have no clue what Kendall Mirsky(?) is trying to prove. The fanbase's obsession with checkdowns has become pathologic. We are not going to become better than the #2 scoring offense in football by throwing the ball to Singletary for 5 yards more often than we do. If Dorsey wants to get our RBs and TEs involved in the pass game he's welcome to call more designed targets in their direction, or run the ball more. Our offense has been highly successful for three years now throwing the ball 10+ yards down the field to our WRs. Allen didn't lead the greatest QB stretch in NFL playoff history by throwing underneath routes to Devin Singletary and Quintin Morris. We've become so spoiled that a 34 point performance despite untimely drops and overthrows is a reason to change the entire formula that made us a Super Bowl contender. 

[PrimeTime101]

43 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 I've seen him a few times this year and I swear only 1 in every 20 balls went 15 yards past the LOS. A ton of screens, swing passes and checkdowns. 

 

Funny, the exact type of throws most of us are asking Ken Dorsey to put more of in the play book. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Funny, the exact type of throws most of us are asking Ken Dorsey to put more of in the play book. 

 

 I agree and just mentioned I found it odd there were no screens, draws, misdirection or trick plays called against a really aggressive defense. If you don't give them a reason to slow down their pass rush, they're going to keep coming.

 

 

 

[Billsfanatic8989]

Offense first is the state of the league.

 

That said, it's ridiculous to be passing on 3rd and 1 when up big. Not converting stops the clock. At least run it and see what happens. Go for it on 4th if need be.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Billsfanatic8989

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

12 minutes ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Offense first is the state of the league.

 

That said, it's ridiculous to be passing on 3rd and 1 when up big. Not converting stops the clock. At least run it and see what happens. Go for it on 4th if need be.

 

 

 

 I LOVE McDermott, but I feel bad for Josh, because of this. Especially at QB, there's a distinct advantage of having a former OC as a HC.

 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think the point was other receivers were open on higher percentage passes. Not that Josh made a bad decision every time.

But I thought Dorsey never “schemed guys open” as WGR repeats over and over.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Some of those criticisms on Josh are ridiculous.

 

He called out Josh twice for throwing to Diggs 1 on 1 when he had his man beat?

 

You take that throw all day long..

 

There were probably 3-4 check downs he should have done,  but to call out like 10 of those plays is just harsh

 

 

They aren't "criticisms."

 

"100%, I just personally would like to see the deep shots dialed back a bit This was not a reel to show how Allen made the wrong read every single time. Simply to show that Josh Allen has open options at various levels of the field (on both successful and unsuccessful plays)."  - Mirsky, a bit further down the chain

 

Says he's pushing back on the idea some are pushing that Allen is being forced to go long by Dorsey. Specifically, in one tweet, "Pushing back on the idea from people that Josh is forced to throw it deep bcuz of play calling or the way things are schemed up."  - Mirsky again, a little further down the chain.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Thurman#1

[CSBill]

5 hours ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Offense first is the state of the league.

 

That said, it's ridiculous to be passing on 3rd and 1 when up big. Not converting stops the clock. At least run it and see what happens. Go for it on 4th if need be.

 

 

 

And yet, McDermott's offense has out performed all of them except one the entire season.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

I don't agree on some of those examples. There were defenders sitting in areas where he thought he should have went. 

7 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

People are just going to have to deal with these types of performances from him.  It’s who he is you take the good with the bad

People were crucifying Mahomes for the same type of INTs last season. I guarantee Daboll would have reeled him in

[metbill]

I would naturally prefer he lower the turnover numbers and try to hit the open check down a few more times a game.  My only issue with JA is WHO he ends up throwing/forcing the ball to when he does not hit the checkdown and ends up with an INT or a bad miss.  It always seems like it is Davis or Knox.  I wish if he was going to throw into tight/double coverage, it was most often to Diggs.  I can live with trying to force the ball to your best playmaker and it going bad.  I cringe when I watch him force it in to Davis with 2 guys on him, realizing, even if open he would most likely drop the pass anyway.  If every one of JA's INTs this year were to Diggs, I would almost be at peace with them all.  Plus, Diggs is going to come down with some of those when blanketed.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

7 hours ago, LEBills said:

Lol one was an actual deep completion to Diggs that helped us start 17-0. 
 

I think Josh did determine where he was going with the ball prior to the snap many times when he saw single high and knowing he was going to have pressure really fast, rather than going through progressions. Especially on those play action shots, I’m ok with that. 
 

All this hand wringing about the game needs to relax. Miami was a tough out for us all year so it was always going to be a tighter game than predicted. Additionally, the Dolphins knew that they needed to force turnovers and so sent a blitz on nearly 40% of Josh’s drop backs. They certainly got their turnovers but they still let up 34 points and lost with that gamble everything strategy. No other team in the playoffs is going to blitz Josh like that and if they do he will make them pay again.

Dorsey could do a little more to counteract some of the Blitzing which will help Josh. Screens, heavy packages, etc which will stop Josh from going deep if that is what Dorsey wants. But I think they knew this was coming and this was the game plan. Go Bills!!

 

Burrow does the same things by the way.

 

You don’t think he took one look at Tre White on Ja’Marr Chase and said I’m throwing deep here? 
 

 

[Billsfan1972]

12 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Did you watch the Cowboys tonight score 30+ ?

 

Wasn’t because Dak played it safe all night. 
 

Why do you want the Bills to become the Indianapolis Colts on offense? 
 

Should we trade for Zack Moss again and start the 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense? 

Some here love the idea of three yards & a cloud of dust offense.....🤣🙄

 

Just watched the video in the thread and see Gabe drop the long ball (i.e. the semi-contested catch we haven't seen a Bill make all year).  Shakir drops a perfect 54 yarder, Beasley causes an Int as it bounces off his chest.  Brown breaks off route resulting in another interception.

 

The best is the video showing the perfect read to Davis (was a nice catch as underthrown) and anticipating and hitting Diggs for 50 and just missing him on the first play from scrimmage.

 

I say double down given the same opportunities.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[quinnearlysghost88]

I don’t hate Dorsey, it’s just clear Josh is calling the shots. Next year, Josh needs a veteran OC to keep up with his growth. Someone who can take him to the next level and put him in a position to excel in a system where he’s the captain of the offense not the entire offense. 

34 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Some here love the idea of three yards & a cloud of dust offense.....🤣🙄

 

Just watched the video in the thread and see Gabe drop the long ball (i.e. the semi-contested catch we haven't seen all year).  Shakir drops a perfect 54 yarder, Beasley causes an Int as it bounces off his chest.  Brown breaks off route resulting in another interception.

 

The best is the video showing the perfect read to Davis (was a nice catch as underthrown) and anticipating and hitting Diggs for 50 and just missing him on the first play from scrimmage.

 

I say double down given the same opportunities.

Drops go both ways. If waddle and hill catch their passes, we lose this game. Deep shots are fine, but the high risk, high reward long ball is not a real offensive strategy. 

[ALLEN1QB]

It all comes down to understanding your opponent and understanding the game situation and playing smart. Sunday the Bills did none of those and almost lost because of it. Do that against the Bengals and see what happens!

Edited January 17, 2023 by ALLEN1QB

[Billsfan1972]

26 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I don’t hate Dorsey, it’s just clear Josh is calling the shots. Next year, Josh needs a veteran OC to keep up with his growth. Someone who can take him to the next level and put him in a position to excel in a system where he’s the captain of the offense not the entire offense. 

Drops go both ways. If waddle and hill catch their passes, we lose this game. Deep shots are fine, but the high risk, high reward long ball is not a real offensive strategy. 

Waddle dropped one that would have put them around the 30 yard line early in the game.  And you're conceding a TD on that drive?  The Hill drop was a 8 yard pass on the Miami side of the field, and you're claiming it would have been a game changer too????  Not even I'm so cynical.

 

You quoted my post but said nothing about that I said as I pointed out drops (and catches too) on perfect balls that somehow shows Allen making the wrong read.  That was a joke video imo. 

[Punch]

I do appreciate the premise of this thread:

 

”Oh, you thought a thing? Well, another guy doesn’t.”

[quinnearlysghost88]

17 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Waddle dropped one that would have put them around the 30 yard line early in the game.  And you're conceding a TD on that drive?  The Hill drop was a 8 yard pass on the Miami side of the field, and you're claiming it would have been a game changer too????  Not even I'm so cynical.

 

You quoted my post but said nothing about that I said as I pointed out drops (and catches too) on perfect balls that somehow shows Allen making the wrong read.  That was a joke video imo. 

Espn just said Waddle had three drops. The one was on our 28. Maybe a TD maybe a FG. Either the way we won by 3. He makes those catches, we’re in trouble. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

54 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I don’t hate Dorsey, it’s just clear Josh is calling the shots. Next year, Josh needs a veteran OC to keep up with his growth. Someone who can take him to the next level and put him in a position to excel in a system where he’s the captain of the offense not the entire offense. 

Drops go both ways. If waddle and hill catch their passes, we lose this game. Deep shots are fine, but the high risk, high reward long ball is not a real offensive strategy. 

So fire Dorsey and bring in a Norv Turner or Darrell Bevel type?

[peterpan]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I don't care for the tribal/partisan divides of haters and supporters, because I have a brain, but it's almost always been true during Josh's career that the offense succeeds most efficiently when he's calm and seeing the entire field. 

 

Zen Josh hasn't been talked about this season, and it shows. We're still awesome because Allen is so good and the team is good, but we're not getting that serene, patient, absolute assassin that we got at times the last two seasons. More shades of the boom or bust prospect we expected, but still probably best case for most of us around draft time.

 

 

This is very very true.  Allen gets rattled under pressure at time and it extended to times when he is not under pressure.

 

either way this team needs a huge improvement at WR if we are gonna play hero ball.  We lead the league in drops and brought two WRs out of retirement for the playoff push. 
 

we need to add a Mike evans type or two

[Straight Hucklebuck]

10 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

John Brown definitely ran the wrong route. 

 

He didn't stay straight, he ran out and up, and ran out of time. 

 

Pause the video when Josh begins to throw...John Brown is on running straight to the endzone, when the ball is in the air he veers off and then turns it back up. 

 

Last week our media loved it when Josh took the 1 on 1. 

 

This week it's a pick, so Josh needs to be "reigned in" 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Josh should continue to go balls deep!

[Drew21PA]

10 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

Wow.  Film session must have been awkward 

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

John Brown definitely ran the wrong route. 

 

He didn't stay straight, he ran out and up, and ran out of time. 

 

Pause the video when Josh begins to throw...John Brown is on running straight to the endzone, when the ball is in the air he veers off and then turns it back up. 

 

Last week our media loved it when Josh took the 1 on 1. 

 

This week it's a pick, so Josh needs to be "reigned in" 

Josh brown definitely ran the wrong route.  Still thought it was careless to throw that there personally.  When the pressure came I was hoping he was going to throw it away or a check down - but heaved it without a full step and full throw

 

just by how he threw it I knew it was going to be picked and be short of his target - just didn’t look smart if that makes sense 

[ddaryl]

I do agree with the thought process that Allen gets a little to greedy. We need to take our shots but I also like controlling the ball more and keeping it out of the opposing O's hands.

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

I don't Hate Ken Dorsey but he does call the plays. Shorten up the passing game, run the ball more and the fans will be happy

I am tired of bombs away, it's a low percentage pass

 

 I'm not and how can you he tired of it, there wasn't a deep ball to be had for about 2 months while Josh was injured. He literally just started throwing deep again 2 games ago. I'm also not tired of scoring 34 points. Give me this offense any day of the week over injured Josh offense. Diggs averaged 16.6 ypc, Davis 18.8, Shakir 17.0(would've been alot higher if not for the drop), even Beasley averaged 17.5, which doesn't happen if Buffalo hadn't been throwing deep all game.

 

 

 

[CEN-CAL17]

I don’t hate Dorsey but I’d like to see some creativity.

 

For example from this past weekend….

 

Saw the Jags use T Heavy in the backfield in the run game. Also the Cowboys last night used like a reverse wishbone with an OL in the backfield and threw off it. Basically “hey we are going to run”, nope, extra solid blockers in the backfield.

 

btw both plays were successful 

[Santana]

It's not Just Dorsey and it's not just Allen...It's both and it's probably more on Allen honestly. I've been watching this all season very very closely and Allen often times just refuses to take any underneath throws or layups. On Sunday there were 2x when he had guys open underneath and took the deeper throws and it paid off but he ends up forcing so much that the turnovers are sure to happen. Dorsey needs to call more running plays to nullify that part of Josh's game.

[Eastport bills]

Josh played much too aggressively after getting the big lead. The untimely picks, giving Miami short fields, was the result. This is the best thing that could have happened. He’s not only the most physically talented QB in football but he’s smart and coachable. I guarantee he will look for better options with his throws and prioritize ball security in the pocket and on QB runs. He will still take vertical shots down the field to keep the coverage honest but I can see more slot receiver, TE underneath throws and flares and check downs to backs. We are about to see our best version of this offense.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

5 minutes ago, Drew21PA said:

Wow.  Film session must have been awkward 

Josh brown definitely ran the wrong route.  Still thought it was careless to throw that there personally.  When the pressure came I was hoping he was going to throw it away or a check down - but heaved it without a full step and full throw

 

just by how he threw it I knew it was going to be picked and be short of his target - just didn’t look smart if that makes sense 

 

 He threw the same ball, in the same way, to Brown the week before. He threw it up there and gave his guy a 1 on 1 shot. Brown screwed it up by breaking off the route, then didn't knock the ball down, but the worst of it is he ran right by Howard, failing to tackle him. Howard caught it at the 3 and returned it to Buffalo's 48. If he tackles him where he caught it Miami is pinned deep in its own territory. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

I don’t hate Dorsey but I’d like to see some creativity.

 

For example from this past weekend….

 

Saw the Jags use T Heavy in the backfield in the run game. Also the Cowboys last night used like a reverse wishbone with an OL in the backfield and threw off it. Basically “hey we are going to run”, nope, extra solid blockers in the backfield.

 

btw both plays were successful 

 

 I've seen zero creativity from the offense this year also. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Santana said:

It's not Just Dorsey and it's not just Allen...It's both and it's probably more on Allen honestly. I've been watching this all season very very closely and Allen often times just refuses to take any underneath throws or layups. On Sunday there were 2x when he had guys open underneath and took the deeper throws and it paid off but he ends up forcing so much that the turnovers are sure to happen. Dorsey needs to call more running plays to nullify that part of Josh's game.

 

 I think it's been Dorsey's offensive philosophy to be really aggressive. He may not be a good pairing with Josh, who is already an aggressive passer to begin with.

 

 

 

[Santana]

13 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 He threw the same ball, in the same way, to Brown the week before. He threw it up there and gave his guy a 1 on 1 shot. Brown screwed it up by breaking off the route, then didn't knock the ball down, but the worst of it is he ran right by Howard, failing to tackle him. Howard caught it at the 3 and returned it to Buffalo's 48. If he tackles him where he caught it Miami is pinned deep in its own territory. 

 

 

 

 I've seen zero creativity from the offense this year also. 

 

 

 

 I think it's been Dorsey's offensive philosophy to be really aggressive. He may not be a good pairing with Josh, who is already an aggressive passer to begin with.

 

 

 

That's a really good point and I never thought about it like that. You're 100% right though, him and Josh are both way too aggressive in their approach. The best game that Josh played this season was the first game of the year against the Rams. He was absolutely surgical. He took everything that the defense was giving him and he was very calm and poised.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

42 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Josh should continue to go balls deep!

 

Hell yeah, I totally agree, that boy has got some big balls, just ask Wilkins!😂