Orlovsky: Bills aren't as talented offensively as we thought

[The 9 Isles]

Daboll covered up lot of problems with his schemes. His lack of a run game was because he knew the Oline and RBs weren’t good enough to get consistent push. 

[LABILLBACKER]

We won't compete consistently if the OL doesn't turn things around. Kromer and guys like Saffold and Brown have been huge disappointments. Dawkins has been inconsistent.  Bates is now hurt. If guys like Quessenberry or Van Rotten have to come in its game over. 

    Dorsey has truly struggled his first year. The tempo and plays are off. After Diggs, wrs just aren't separating or catching passes. I know the record doesn't necessarily reflect this but your eyes don't lie.

[hemma]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

7 Drops by my count( by memory) yesterday:

McKenzie 3

Knox 2

Brown 1

Singletary 1

 

I was at the game so didn’t get replay on most if any of them but it was an abysmal showing by the targets.

 

The last Knox drop was like icing on a very unappetizing cake

 

 

Diggs had 1 also.

[BananaB]

McKenzie and Davis are not living up to expectations. Bills put a lot of faith in those two and both have been a big part of the Os problems. 

[NewEra]

29 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean it’s kind of true. I do r watch the all 22 but are our receivers not getting separation. Or is Allen locked in Diggs. Definitely Davis has been a disappointment. And McKenzie is showing why he’s never had a big role for any team. 
 

the thing that really drives me crazy is the Jets 4th string rb might be better than our guys. The one thing the Bills could always find when they were terrible is an rb. Crazy 

That was one of the reasons they they were terrible.  Using all those picks on RBs-  

1997-2010 - including 4 first rd picks

97 smith- 1st

98 linton- 5th

99 Bryson- 3rd

00 morris 5th

01 Henry 2nd

02 ferguson 7th

03 mcgahee 1st

05 Gates 7th

07 lynch 1st

10 spiller 1st

 

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Boy]

1 minute ago, hemma said:

 

Diggs had 1 also.

Was that the one on the first drive?

[Dopey]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We won't compete consistently if the OL doesn't turn things around. Kromer and guys like Saffold and Brown have been huge disappointments. Dawkins has been inconsistent.  Bates is now hurt. If guys like Quessenberry or Van Rotten have to come in its game over. 

    Dorsey has truly struggled his first year. The tempo and plays are off. After Diggs, wrs just aren't separating or catching passes. I know the record doesn't necessarily reflect this but your eyes don't lie.

Over the past few weeks, I've seen the likes of Van Rotten, Hart, and Quess, along with Bates at Center sometimes...and we're on a 4 game winning streak. Hardly game over.

[Coach Tuesday]

38 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean it’s kind of true. I do r watch the all 22 but are our receivers not getting separation. Or is Allen locked in Diggs. Definitely Davis has been a disappointment. And McKenzie is showing why he’s never had a big role for any team. 
 

the thing that really drives me crazy is the Jets 4th string rb might be better than our guys. The one thing the Bills could always find when they were terrible is an rb. Crazy 

 

The Chiefs picked a RB in the 7th round in 2022 who is far better than the RB the Bills blew a 2nd round pick on in the same draft.  

[Antonio]

32 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Depends on what version of this offense you're talking about.  Are you talking about the pre-bye week offense or what we've seen post-bye?

 

Overall, 13 weeks.

 

I think we are pretty even as last years. We have scored 10 more points playing against better competition. We are +132 points differential, I think we are pretty good. 

 

Maybe we are not dominating teams like we would like to, but we are playing tought defenses. 

[Ned Flanders]

Didn't Greg Cosell say the exact thing a couple of weeks ago?  Yawn...

[hemma]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Was that the one on the first drive?

No it was later than that I think.  I don’t have access right now to check it.

I remember the Announcers called it out.

[BananaB]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

The Chiefs picked a RB in the 7th round in 2022 who is far better than the RB the Bills blew a 2nd round pick on in the same draft.  

SF gets a late round pick every year that looks better than Bills RBs. 

[Dopey]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

The Chiefs picked a RB in the 7th round in 2022 who is far better than the RB the Bills blew a 2nd round pick on in the same draft.  

He's not better, IMO.

[BananaB]

Just now, Ned Flanders said:

Didn't Greg Cosell say the exact thing a couple of weeks ago?  Yawn...

Yeah he did. He’s right

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Callin a pretty heavy BS on this lol.  When will these talking head jamokes learn to not overreact on Mondays after a game.  They crowned tua three weeks ago and he has been bad for two straight weeks.  They wrote cincy off a couple months ago and now they’ve won like 6 in a row.
 

Allen’s elbow wasn’t right for a few weeks which we gameplanned around then we ran into the jets defense in bad weather which is gonna be a defensive struggle and ball security/playing conservatively was at a premium.  
 

if they can’t move the ball against Miami or Chicago then I could understand this. 
the plays where there yesterday against a great defense  we just didn’t make them.  John brown had a walk in td and he was underthrown.  Diggs was wide open for a huge gain early in the game,there were like 6 drops. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

McKenzie and Davis are not living up to expectations. Bills put a lot of faith in those two and both have been a big part of the Os problems. 

The hype around Davis was off the charts going into the season.  He was being heralded as the best #2 in football that could be a #1 on almost any other team in the league.

 

I know that came from the his performance in the KC playoff game, but since the ankle injury, he's been average at best. Definitely not what we were expecting out of him.

 

And don't get me started on Dirty.  He's had a few flashes, but like Davis, has been very disappointing. His drops yesterday were just inexcusable.  

[KOKBILLS]

Honestly...I think a lot of folks...and that includes me while I'm yelling at my TV screen during games...are getting too far into the weeds on the Offensive issues. If I was to generalize, and I don't usually like to do that, I would say actual execution is the main issue on Offense. 

 

1st drive Josh misses Diggs wide open. From what I could see he's got the single Safety to beat for 6...That's how open he was. Then Josh underthrows Smoke when he's got at least a step or two on the Rookie. Smoke still almost caught that ball. Then later on the McKenzie drop on 3rd down...Those 3 plays executed properly probably lead to a blowout yesterday. Regardless of anything else. McKenzie also had an earlier drop on a 3rd and long along the sidelines (the one he bobbled and dropped...It was a tough catch, but definitely a catchable ball for an NFL WR) that would have extended a drive.

 

Dropped passes, missed blocks, errant passes, penalties...These are all solvable problems before we even get into talent and design. The Bills have clearly been the better team on the field EVERY Sunday...Even in the 3 losses. Execution, penalties, and mistakes have led these games to be closer than they should have been. That seems to be the most obvious point.

 

I do think Dorsey needs to continue to work on scheming easy gains...But all in all we need to get back to that Playoff-level of execution more than anything. JMO...

Edited December 12, 2022 by KOKBILLS

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I agree with everything until the bolded.  If you really believe the offense is lacking because we lack talent at RB, you’ve got it all wrong.  That’s just an awful take.  Doesn’t get much worse.  
 

You’re on point with the rest though.  
 

P.S.-  we used a 2nd rd pick on james cook. The 3rd RB taken in the draft.  

 

Not lacking.  Just an upgrade at RB from everyone feeling much better about the O.  I will agree the Oline can be much better.  
 

 

But if RB isn’t an issue, then where do we rank Motor compared to the rest of the league?  Not that he can’t be effective.  He’s just not a concern for defenses.  
 

None of this is to say this will make winning it all a problem. 
 

That will come down to Allen.  

 

[Beast]

People severely under-estimated what Beasley’s 7 or 8 yard catches meant to this offense. Instead, all we heard from some was how much his play had declined.

 

Losing Beasley has hurt this offense. 

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Callin a pretty heavy BS on this lol.  When will these talking head jamokes learn to not overreact on Mondays after a game.  They crowned tua three weeks ago and he has been bad for two straight weeks.  They wrote cincy off a couple months ago and now they’ve won like 6 in a row.
 

Allen’s elbow wasn’t right for a few weeks which we gameplanned around then we ran into the jets defense in bad weather which is gonna be a defensive struggle and ball security/playing conservatively was at a premium.  
 

if they can’t move the ball against Miami or Chicago then I could understand this. 

No buying the weather argument.  Mike White, who had to leave the game twice because he was getting killed, threw for 268.

 

Bills were 2-13 on third down and Josh had his lowest yards this season at 147.  Obviously not all his fault, but the ridiculous number of drops yesterday, combined with him being under constant pressure, was a bigger factor than the weather.

 

Bills are #2 in the NFL in drops. That can't continue.

[Coach Tuesday]

4 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

Honestly...I think a lot of folks...and that includes me while I'm yelling at my TV screen during games...are getting too far into the weeds on the Offensive issues. If I was to generalize, and I don't usually like to do that, I would say actual execution is the main issue on Offense. 

 

1st drive Josh misses Diggs wide open. From what I could see he's got the single Safety to beat for 6...That's how open he was. Then Josh underthrows Smoke when he's got at least a step or two on the Rookie. Smoke still almost caught that ball. Then later on the McKenzie drop on 3rd down...Those 3 plays executed properly probably lead to a blowout yesterday. Regardless of anything else.

 

Dropped passes, missed blocks, errant passes, penalties...These are all solvable problems before we even get into talent and design. The Bills have clearly been the better team on the field EVERY Sunday...Even in the 3 losses. Execution, penalties, and mistakes have led these games to be closer than they should have been. That seems to be the most obvious point.

 

I do think Dorsey needs to continue to work on scheming easy gains...But all in all we need to get back to that Playoff-level of execution more than anything. JMO...

 

As I said in one of the other threads on this - the execution issues seem to be a symptom of practice habits not being where they need to be.  The routes, timing, blocking - it's all off.  That tells me they're not practicing right (and McD basically agreed during his sideline remarks in-game).

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Beast said:

People severely under-estimated what Beasley’s 7 or 8 yard catches meant to this offense. Instead, all we heard from some was how much his play had declined.

 

Losing Beasley has hurt this offense. 

I honestly thought Shakir would be that quick slant and short crosser route guy that we had with Beasley.  I obviously thought wrong.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Beast said:

People severely under-estimated what Beasley’s 7 or 8 yard catches meant to this offense. Instead, all we heard from some was how much his play had declined.

 

Losing Beasley has hurt this offense. 

It would not have hurt as much if the slot position had someone even adequate to replace him. Crowder never sinked up with Josh and got hurt. Shakir flashed and disappeared. McKenzie is a gadget guy and woefully inconsistent. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

 

As I said in one of the other threads on this - the execution issues seem to be a symptom of practice habits not being where they need to be.  The routes, timing, blocking - it's all off.  That tells me they're not practicing right (and McD basically agreed during his sideline remarks in-game).

There is something very wrong communication wise between josh/gabe where gabe never seems to route adjust the way josh is expecting 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

 

As I said in one of the other threads on this - the execution issues seem to be a symptom of practice habits not being where they need to be.  The routes, timing, blocking - it's all off.  That tells me they're not practicing right (and McD basically agreed during his sideline remarks in-game).

So my question is are the practicing issues related to Josh Allen's elbow and restrictions that can't be helped -- or not? Late in the season to be figuring out.

[LABILLBACKER]

12 minutes ago, hemma said:

 

Diggs had 1 also.

Yes there were 8 legit drops yesterday.  McKenzie's were the worst considering how open he was. If you know there's going to be a wet ball, put some damn gloves on.

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It would not have hurt as much if the slot position had someone even adequate to replace him. Crowder never sinked up with Josh and got hurt. Shakir flashed and disappeared. McKenzie is a gadget guy and woefully inconsistent. 

Agreed but it should have been thought of a little bit differently. Beasley isn’t just some Schlub. He is a veteran that was on-board with his QB and could settle down in the soft part of a defense and move the chains. That shouldn’t be looked upon as a job anyone can come in and do.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Beast

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, Dr. Who said:

It would not have hurt as much if the slot position had someone even adequate to replace him. Crowder never sinked up with Josh and got hurt. Shakir flashed and disappeared. McKenzie is a gadget guy and woefully inconsistent. 

We actually might get crowder back relatively soon 

[KOKBILLS]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

As I said in one of the other threads on this - the execution issues seem to be a symptom of practice habits not being where they need to be.  The routes, timing, blocking - it's all off.  That tells me they're not practicing right (and McD basically agreed during his sideline remarks in-game).

 

Agreed...They, generally, look WAY too sloppy...

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Beast said:

Agreed but it should have been thought of a little bit differently. Beasley isn’t just some Schlub. He is a veteran that was on-board with his QB and could settle down in the soft part of a defense and move the chains.

Well, I'm not part of the crowd who hates on Beasley because of Covid or political differences. I do think the tweets became a distraction, but mainly, I think his legs gave out. Maybe he was playing hurt, but he wasn't the same last season. If you could get the old Beasley in this offense, it would be crazy not to want that.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

How do fans that talk about how the run can’t work rationalize Cook averaging 5.1 ypc and when he gets 20 touches against New England he goes for 105 scrimmage yards?

 

When they use him, he’s been productive. When they give him 2-4 carries what are you supposed to do with that? 
 

I saw Singletary run for 16 yards on a carry yesterday, that happened. So I’m not sure why the takeaway is we just can’t run at all. 

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

I think more than anything, it's Allen being told to stop putting the ball in harms way so often and he hasn't found the happy medium between taking chances and being overly aggressive.  Now he is being overly conservative.

I don’t think it is that as much as it is Allen not trusting his receivers how many more drops can these guys have? He literally has to put it in McKenzies Facemask for him to catch it 

[WideNine]

48 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But the major difference is the Chiefs offense is getting better. Maybe it’s just the Allen injury but this offense has been off for like a month now. 

 

The Chiefs also sunk some money into their OL and took a solid anchor for their OL in Creed 2 spots after we went with Boogie.

 

Not sure if the Ford whiff made Beane a bit hesitant investing early in OL talent, but we have invested more in the defensive line and it shows.

 

We will see if they work to shore up Allen's protection next season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

49 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Singletary is averaging 4.4 ypc. 

 

Cook is averaging 5.1 ypc. 

 

Allen is averaging 6.3 ypc. 

 

Singletary runs for 16-yards and sees 7 carries the rest of the day. 

 

The Bills don't make any effort to stay with a semblance of a run game for all 4-quarters despite being up most of the game. 

Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs are the two best players on this offense. Which plays , down and distances would you have preferred they hand off to Singletary or Cook and why? 

[78thealltimegreat]

Just now, WideNine said:

 

The Chiefs also sunk some money into their OL and took a solid anchor for their OL in Creed 2 spots after we went with Boogie.

 

Not sure if the Ford whiff made Beane a bit hesitant investing early in OL talent, but we have invested more in the defensive line and it shows.

 

We will see if they work to shore up Allen's protection next season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is exactly correct the Bills expect Allen to get by with marginal talent on the oline and wr so Beane can spend big bucks on the defense.  

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

How do fans that talk about how the run can’t work rationalize Cook averaging 5.1 ypc and when he gets 20 touches against New England he goes for 105 scrimmage yards?

 

When they use him, he’s been productive. When they give him 2-4 carries what are you supposed to do with that? 
 

I saw Singletary run for 16 yards on a carry yesterday, that happened. So I’m not sure why the takeaway is we just can’t run at all. 

We run, but as soon as we have a couple no gains, we abandon it.  It's almost as if Dorsey is getting impatient with the play calling. We turn into a 1-dimensional offense and expect Josh to carry it and it's just not a viable option when you have receivers not getting open and dropping balls when they are.

[RichRiderBills]

Davis, Knox, and McKenzie are the issue.

 

I'm not going to say they are not talented, but they are too inconsistent. Too many drops. 

 

Again, we've never viably replaced the Cole Beasley outlet and consistency of his game.

 

The problem is amplified when Dorsey refuses to run the ball or have high % pass plays.  When weather came, the old K gun ran a lot and constantly threw screens and flares. 

 

Dorsey kinda regressed today away from the run he had been improving. It scares me he can be so stubborn. With weather, and Jets are somewhat vulnerable to the run it was a shock. Daboll made the same mistakes. Let's not mention how I just hate empty sets on early downs, especially with the elements. 

 

I thought Allen played really good yesterday. The drops were almost all perfect throws. A couple were not perfect but catchable. Some of it was good coverage by a very good defense. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by RichRiderBills

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Not only is there too little creativity/too much predictability in scheme (even Romo knew it would be a running play when Diggs left the field), the offense has zero physicality or heart to it other than Allen and Diggs.  They are SOFT mentally and physically.  

 

Talent-wise, McKenzie should not be a starter on a supposedly good offense.  Cook has never broken a tackle in his life.  Saffold is a disgrace - he is stealing money from his employer.  Even Dawkins seems out of shape, his "always something" approach to physical maintenance has started to catch up with him.  Spencer Brown has not improved as a player.  Davis has become an afterthought.  They have zero backup tight ends.  Just a staggering lack of talent across the board stemming directly from an under-investment.

I don't think it's accurate to call out the heart of the offense. They are giving it all they have and always play hard. 

 

I'm with you on the lack of talent, consistency, weapons, and creativity. 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, RichRiderBills said:

Davis, Knox, and McKenzie are the issue.

 

I'm not going to say they are not talented, but they are too inconsistent. Too many drops. 

 

Again, we've never viably replaced the Cole Beasley outlet and consistency of his game.

 

The problem is amplified when Dorsey refuses to run the ball or have high % pass plays.  When weather came, the old K gun ran a lot and constantly threw screens and flares. 

 

Dorsey kinda regressed today away from the run. It scares me he can be so stubborn. With weather, and Jets are somewhat vulnerable to the run it was a shock. 

 

I thought Allen played really good yesterday. The drops were almost all perfect throws. A couple were not perfect but catchable. Some of it was good coverage by a very good defense. 

Right might be one of the best secondary in NFL 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

The aggravating part is I think we are and just don’t use the right guys enough. I think this offense can absolutely take off if it started to feature Cook in an early career Kamara role. The guy is electric with the ball in his hands. Nobody on the field wants to see that guy in space with the ball in his hands. That includes our Coach apparently. I also think Shakir has flashed every chance he’s gotten. The guy should have been the slot WR for months now. I don’t know what our own coaches see sometimes but just because they do it, doesn’t mean it’s right. Ray Charles could see Frank Gore was done 4 years before he got to Buffalo. These guys were obsessed with getting him involved. Same situation with Moss. The guy was a drive killer but they had to feed him. Now they are just refusing to use Cook who is a dynamic playmaker. It’s infuriating