Week 13: Bills at Pats on TNF

[JMM]

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

[Johnnycage46]

6 minutes ago, JMM said:

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

 

Might be more of an indictment on the weird schedule the last couple of weeks (i.e. extremely limited practice/prep time).  I would imagine in the next couple of weeks Hines will be more involved.  It wouldn't shock me if he isn't a HUGE part of this week's game...but more over the next few games.

[Neo]

3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Muki did -and just like Warrow, he’s incapable of formulating a coherent question.. Sean will always go with canned, open ended answers, but he needs clarity with these clowns so he can best BS them in his response.

When a question and answer session begins with “hope you can hear me, I’m out doing my Christmas shopping”, you can immediately lower your expectations for insight.   How many times do we hear questions start and then transform to 40 to 50 word meanderings that are 1/3 follow up and 1/3 lists of possible answers to the original near question?

 

“Hey, coach, thanks for taking my question.   I notice you don’t run as much in the first half as you do in the second half and is that because you feel the need to get Diggs engaged because of his energy or are you worried about the loss of Edmunds and have a desire to keep the defense off the field especially with a lead or when playing from behind and how does Josh work that strategy into his preparation in light of his injury?

 

Um, well, we prepare for everything and then, looking at the situation, pick the play we feel has the best probability of success.

 

Ok, thank you.”

[Beck Water]

27 minutes ago, JMM said:

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

 

Good Grief.

 

Beane traded a RB who was getting 22% of the snaps, ~23 y/Sc/g (and who most fans seemed to feel, should get less) and a conditional 6th for Hines - a guy who was getting 30% of the snaps and 30 y/Sc/g (mostly receiving) on a team that is currently 4-6-1 therefore presumably didn't have as many good players.

 

Hines is making a strong contribution.  He has taken over the KR/PR duties and is doing a very solid job with both.

 

Yet you're carrying on like the Bills traded for CMC or Tee Higgins and put him in the barn. Take a Chill Pill, Jill.  Period.

 

If there's an indictment of Dorsey, it's that perhaps he could be doing a better scheming open the players we've got, who already know his system, not that he isn't immediately taking the guy who had the 5th most receiving y/g on a "meh" team and turning him into an instant strong contributor on offense, leapfrogging all the guys who've been here grinding while we made it to 8-3.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Beck Water

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

33 minutes ago, JMM said:

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

 

25 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

 

Might be more of an indictment on the weird schedule the last couple of weeks (i.e. extremely limited practice/prep time).  I would imagine in the next couple of weeks Hines will be more involved.  It wouldn't shock me if he isn't a HUGE part of this week's game...but more over the next few games.

My hope And guess is that they are taking a very deliberate and long approach to Hines. Get him fully up to speed, figure out how best to use him, get him lots Of practice reps, etc.— all In time for the final stretch and playoffs. I think what that means would

be he is fully integrated by the Jets game. That would give him that 10-day window between games too for more reps. 
 

Either that, or they are really squandering the trade. 

[YoloinOhio]

BOBBB-Y Hart doo doo doo doo doo doo 🎶

 

 

[Beck Water]

23 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

My hope And guess is that they are taking a very deliberate and long approach to Hines. Get him fully up to speed, figure out how best to use him, get him lots Of practice reps, etc.— all In time for the final stretch and playoffs. I think what that means would

be he is fully integrated by the Jets game. That would give him that 10-day window between games too for more reps. 
 

Either that, or they are really squandering the trade. 

 

Question: what exactly does "squandering the trade" mean to you? 

 

Again: the trade was an RB who the Bills weren't using much and a 6th round pick, for a pass catching RB with KR/PR chops who the Colts weren't using much. 

All 3 of our starting WR, our TE, and our starting RB had higher production per game than Hines at the time of the trade.  Only James Cook and Khalil Shakir on the active roster have fewer receiving yards, and most fans are clamoring for more use of Shakir and of Cook.

 

Hines has immediately made a contribution, taking over KR/PR duties and appearing solid at both.

 

What do you think was the Bills intent in making the trade and acquiring Hines?

Who do you want to see less of, so we can see more Hines? 

Who should get fewer practice reps, so Hines can get more?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beast]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good Grief.

 

Beane traded a RB who was getting 22% of the snaps, ~23 y/Sc/g (and who most fans seemed to feel, should get less) and a conditional 6th for Hines - a guy who was getting 30% of the snaps and 30 y/Sc/g (mostly receiving) on a team that is currently 4-6-1 therefore presumably didn't have as many good players.

 

Hines is making a strong contribution.  He has taken over the KR/PR duties and is doing a very solid job with both.

 

Yet you're carrying on like the Bills traded for CMC or Tee Higgins and put him in the barn. Take a Chill Pill, Jill.  Period.

 

If there's an indictment of Dorsey, it's that perhaps he could be doing a better scheming open the players we've got, who already know his system, not that he isn't immediately taking the guy who had the 5th most receiving y/g on a "meh" team and turning him into an instant strong contributor on offense, leapfrogging all the guys who've been here grinding while we made it to 8-3.

 

 

Sorry, but I disagree.

 

The Bills don’t need to feature Hines but the man has speed like we don’t have on offense. The man has had 2 seasons on good Colts team where he had 60 plus receptions.

 

Get him the ball 5 to 7 times  a game on the offensive side of the ball. Make the defense respect the threat of his speed.

 

 

[Beck Water]

On 11/25/2022 at 3:38 PM, Joe Ferguson said:

Good. Benford and Jackson are dog turd god awful players.

 

You ought to feel a special sense of kinship with them both, then.

[PatsFanNH]

2 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

@PatsFanNH

 

When I eluded to the return of white and Elam, I meant strictly in regards to boundary corners. Taron Johnson will be in a majority of the snaps at nickel. In the past while playing man, they’ve used Milano, Edmunds, even big nickel Siran Neal, to cover tight ends. 
 

So how do they cover everyone? It depends on how formation. personnel and down and distance. Either way, it’s likely to be a combination of the above mentioned players, in addition to Poyer/Hamlin from the safety position  

Thanks! IMO the Pats only hope is for Jones have a great day, another career best, and hope the D can force at least a couple Punts if not some turnovers.. 

 

The Bills are clearly the better team, the Pats IMO are better talent wise than last year, but the coaching on the O side is average to god awful bad.  I think if they can get a true #1 WR next year and have him team up with Parker and Meyers that be a damn good WR room.

[Steptide]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

It'll be interesting to see if John brown gets playing time soon. If he does, then I have no idea what they're thinking with Hines 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

Hines needs to be more involved in the offense beginning this game.  If he is not then it's a direct indictment of both Dorsey and McDermott. Period.

 

I agree with the first sentence because I think we need to throw some new wrinkles at Belichek.  Rest assured he has digested everything we did to him last year and he has looked at all the film this season too. 

 

We need to pull out something new, maybe Hines can be that.  The Pats* defense is very good, and they will be ready for us in Foxboro.  

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

 

I agree with the first sentence because I think we need to throw some new wrinkles at Belichek.  Rest assured he has digested everything we did to him last year and he has looked at all the film this season too. 

 

We need to pull out something new, maybe Hines can be that.  The Pats* defense is very good, and they will be ready for us in Foxboro.  

I completely agree. Daboll  had a great game plan for that matchup in Foxboro last December and Josh was excellent. I’m not sure if Dorsey will be up to the task. 

[Beck Water]

52 minutes ago, Beast said:

Sorry, but I disagree.

 

The Bills don’t need to feature Hines but the man has speed like we don’t have on offense. The man has had 2 seasons on good Colts team where he had 60 plus receptions.

 

Get him the ball 5 to 7 times  a game on the offensive side of the ball. Make the defense respect the threat of his speed.

 

Disagreement is fine, you're being factual about it and putting out some good stuff for a discussion.

 

Fact: Nyheim Hynes ran a 4.39 at the NFL Combine. 

 

McKenzie ran a 4.42.  Shakir ran 4.43.  Stevenson ran 4.37.  James Cook ran 4.42.  Does 0.03, 0.04 seconds in pajamas years ago make a practical difference to how much speed a guy has in cleats, pads, and a helmet?

 

Just based on 40 time, the Bills have plenty of speed suiting up and more waiting in the wings to either be activated or season-ending IR'd (Stevenson).  I would say it's not how fast a guy ran in PJ's years ago, it's how fast he's playing today.  Hines is fast, but so are McKenzie, Shakir, and Cook. Stevenson has yet to prove his superior speed in tights transfers on to the field successfully.

 

The Bills have averaged about 60 snaps per game to date.  We get 5 players per snap in addition to QB and OL.

 

Davis is on the field for almost all snaps, 93%, due to his blocking chops and deep threat.  Currently top-10 in the league for Y/R.

Knox gets the second percentage, 79% or ~55/game, used a lot as a blocker (may chip and release to routes)

Diggs gets 77% of the snaps, about 53/game, currently top-10 in the league for several receiving categories (receptions, receiving yds, TD, 1D etc)

Singletary just behind him, 72% or 49/game, used a lot in pass pro and as an outlet

McKenzie has been averaging 55% snaps of the snaps per game.  Catches 67% of his targets, 3.7 Tch/G, 9.7 Y/Tch, 5 TD, 21 1D.

Shakir, 16 snaps per game, about 25% - loud and persistent clamoring to see more of him

Cook is the caboose, averaging about 17% or 10 snaps per game - again, loud and persistent clamoring to see more of him.

 

Hines, in his 4 games here, has actually averaged 6 snaps per game.  He's gotten 3 touches, and 1.3 Y/Tch. 

 

So which of these guys do you want to take off the field to give Hines more snaps?

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Beck Water

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

BOBBB-Y Hart doo doo doo doo doo doo 🎶

 

 

Wait, this can't be true.  I read on TSW that Bobby Hart is not good.  How could this be?  

[Process]

Greg Edmunds and Mitch all practicing 

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

When a question and answer session begins with “hope you can hear me, I’m out doing my Christmas shopping”, you can immediately lower your expectations for insight.   How many times do we hear questions start and then transform to 40 to 50 word meanderings that are 1/3 follow up and 1/3 lists of possible answers to the original near question?

 

“Hey, coach, thanks for taking my question.   I notice you don’t run as much in the first half as you do in the second half and is that because you feel the need to get Diggs engaged because of his energy or are you worried about the loss of Edmunds and have a desire to keep the defense off the field especially with a lead or when playing from behind and how does Josh work that strategy into his preparation in light of his injury?

 

Um, well, we prepare for everything and then, looking at the situation, pick the play we feel has the best probability of success.

 

Ok, thank you.”

🤣😮🤨🤦‍♂️

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by YoloinOhio

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

Oh, Geesh.  Some kind of bug running through the locker room.  Yikes.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

So which of these guys do you want to take off the field to give Hines more snaps?

 

James Cook for me. He flashes potential here and there but I'm not excited to see him playing a significant role now on a team fighting to win a championship. He's too easy to bring down, for one. Bulk up in the offseason and apply what he's learned and try again next year. I trust Hines more and at this point in time he brings more to the table.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

James Cook for me. He flashes potential here and there but I'm not excited to see him playing a significant role now on a team fighting to win a championship. He's too easy to bring down, for one. Bulk up in the offseason and apply what he's learned and try again next year. I trust Hines more and at this point in time he brings more to the table.

 

OK, fair enough, you have a reasonable, thought-out answer. 

 

And yet, Cook has 369 yds/scrimmage (4th on the team of players not named Allen) and 6.7 yds/touch; that's better than Hines managed in his 2 best years 2018 and 2020.  Cook has better yds/rush than Singletary at 5.6 vs 4.5 (which may reflect when and how he's used), and again, better than Hynes with Indy this year (4.9) or in Hines best years.

 

I think Hines, to fans, is the "new shiny" "greener grass" who just has to be better than what we've got - doesn't he?  Well, maybe.  Or maybe not. 

 

Personally, I think Beane traded for Hines for exactly the role he's filling: 1) take over at KR/PR, improving the return game and freeing Shakir to focus on becoming the best receiver he can be this season. 2) learn the offense and be ready to fill in at RB or in the slot/as the gadget guy if (avert) injuries strike.

 

The Bills currently have the #2 offense in the league by most parameters - PPG, Y/G, plays/g, 1D/g - and the difference is slight - 2 PPG, 5 y/g, 3 pl/g.  #3 in y/pl and again difference is slight, 0.2/y per pl

 

Where the Bills stink most markedly is in turnovers per game - where we are tied for 30th in the league at 1.73/game.  This suggests to me that where the Bills need to raise their game is in the turnover arena, and largely in INT.  "Only Josh Allen can Beat the Bills". 

 

Now maybe part of that is more creative play design that schemes guys open more.  And maybe that involves Hines, or maybe it involves better use of the guys who've been here all along, grinding.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, fair enough, you have a reasonable, thought-out answer. 

 

And yet, Cook has 369 yds/scrimmage (4th on the team of players not named Allen) and 6.7 yds/touch; that's better than Hines managed in his 2 best years 2018 and 2020.  Cook has better yds/rush than Singletary at 5.6 vs 4.5 (which may reflect when and how he's used), and again, better than Hynes with Indy this year (4.9) or in Hines best years.

 

I think Hines, to fans, is the "new shiny" "greener grass" who just has to be better than what we've got - doesn't he?  Well, maybe.  Or maybe not. 

 

Personally, I think Beane traded for Hines for exactly the role he's filling: 1) take over at KR/PR, improving the return game and freeing Shakir to focus on becoming the best receiver he can be this season. 2) learn the offense and be ready to fill in at RB or in the slot/as the gadget guy if (avert) injuries strike.

 

The Bills currently have the #2 offense in the league by most parameters - PPG, Y/G, plays/g, 1D/g - and the difference is slight - 2 PPG, 5 y/g, 3 pl/g.  #3 in y/pl and again difference is slight, 0.2/y per pl

 

Where the Bills stink most markedly is in turnovers per game - where we are tied for 30th in the league at 1.73/game.  This suggests to me that where the Bills need to raise their game is in the turnover arena, and largely in INT.  "Only Josh Allen can Beat the Bills". 

 

Now maybe part of that is more creative play design that schemes guys open more.  And maybe that involves Hines, or maybe it involves better use of the guys who've been here all along, grinding.

Dirsey definitely needs to be better, or they need to find a replacement 

[Rockinon]

55 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, Geesh.  Some kind of bug running through the locker room.  Yikes.

There were a bunch of guys sick last week too

[Playoffs?]

20 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Dirsey definitely needs to be better, or they need to find a replacement 

Dorsey just needs to figure out how and when to use the weapons he has. 

[Boatdrinks]

24 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

Dorsey just needs to figure out how and when to use the weapons he has. 

That’s what he’s charged with yes. There’s cause for concern as to whether he’s capable. After starting f fast out of the gate, he hasn’t broken tendencies and defenses have caught up. His red zone design has been suspect all season. 

[Success]

8 players not practicing due to illness - has anyone heard anything about that?  Flu?

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

45 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

Dorsey just needs to figure out how and when to use the weapons he has. 

I mean, he's had all off-season and 11 weeks to do so. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, Geesh.  Some kind of bug running through the locker room.  Yikes.

Again. This season is ridiculous.

[zow2]

Fyi- for the uniform crowd…i saw a video online of Patriots practice today and it looked like they were wearing white helmets with the old Patriots logo,

the guy hiking the football.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, zow2 said:

Fyi- for the uniform crowd…i saw a video online of Patriots practice today and it looked like they were wearing white helmets with the old Patriots logo,

the guy hiking the football.

Saw that posted upthread 

[RiotAct]

51 minutes ago, Success said:

8 players not practicing due to illness - has anyone heard anything about that?  Flu?

 

Black Plague.

[WideNine]

Last year Allen's confidence was soaring and Daboll was game planning.

 

Dorsey is going to have to up his game finding ways to get receivers free and Allen will need more options to get rid of the ball on time.

 

Wonder if we will see Smoke on the field and if so, does he fill that slot role that has been missing that veteran component?

 

There have not been many games lately where the Bills have dominated and I suspect this will not be an easy one either. 

 

Tough group though that has had to claw for so many wins and endure close gut-wrenching defeats.

 

We will see.

 

 

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Question: what exactly does "squandering the trade" mean to you? 

 

Again: the trade was an RB who the Bills weren't using much and a 6th round pick, for a pass catching RB with KR/PR chops who the Colts weren't using much. 

All 3 of our starting WR, our TE, and our starting RB had higher production per game than Hines at the time of the trade.  Only James Cook and Khalil Shakir on the active roster have fewer receiving yards, and most fans are clamoring for more use of Shakir and of Cook.

 

Hines has immediately made a contribution, taking over KR/PR duties and appearing solid at both.

 

What do you think was the Bills intent in making the trade and acquiring Hines?

Who do you want to see less of, so we can see more Hines? 

Who should get fewer practice reps, so Hines can get more?

All fair questions. I obviously can’t speak for the Bills. But given the buzz over and attempts at getting a pass-catching RB (eg, McKissick), I saw the Hines trade as more than just a ST specialist. 
 

I was expecting a guy who would basically be no less than a third round back, and would be catching at least 4-5 balls per game, and being mixed in with the other RB’s with a few Carries here and there.  That would be the floor on expectations. The ceiling would Be a guy who would essentially be our slot WR, with the versatility to move into the backfield. 
 

Some of my expectations were driven by  Hines’s contract. I guess the Bills could let him walk after this season, but if they aren’t, his contract justifies higher usage. 
 

[jkeerie]

Over the past two games the Bills have had only one day of regular practice.  That might account for Hines not being part of the game plan as well as the vanilla play calling.  Hopefully we'll see more in coming weeks.

[Beck Water]

17 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

All fair questions. I obviously can’t speak for the Bills. But given the buzz over and attempts at getting a pass-catching RB (eg, McKissick), I saw the Hines trade as more than just a ST specialist. 
 

I was expecting a guy who would basically be no less than a third round back, and would be catching at least 4-5 balls per game, and being mixed in with the other RB’s with a few Carries here and there.  That would be the floor on expectations. The ceiling would Be a guy who would essentially be our slot WR, with the versatility to move into the backfield. 
 

Some of my expectations were driven by  Hines’s contract. I guess the Bills could let him walk after this season, but if they aren’t, his contract justifies higher usage. 
 

 

Re: the contract, Hines is earning $1.83M salary this year.  Panthers gave Andre Roberts $1.75M 1 yr to return kickoffs and punts.  Previously the Bills were paying Roberts $2.3M per year as KR/PR.  So I think his current salary is right in line for a KR/PR

 

I’m sure the Bills would like him to be more than a ST guy, but I thought he came in with the expectation to lock down the KR/PR position, as a backup/ “pony” back with Cook, and potentially/hopefully as a backup at the slot position.

 

Hines is being mixed in for 6 snaps a game so far, and what happens on those snaps I’m sure will determine which way his usage trends.

 

I’ve totally not understood the fan expectation that Hines must be force-fed 10-12 touches a game right now or Beane/Dorsey are negligent or whatever it was, but to me Hines was a nice acquisition for depth and as a punt returner with Crowder being out so all the clamor has me puzzled.  Thanks for taking the time to give me a reasonable answer!

[Gunsgoodtime]

Its good to rather you like it or not

Zayed Jones  future HOF bills wr if all time

[Kenosha2Buffalo]

40 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

Its good to rather you like it or not

Zayed Jones  future HOF bills wr if all time

 

Good post there buddy, you should pay for my stroke medicine because your beautiful use of the English language just gave me one.

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, RiotAct said:

Black Plague.

I thought it was scurvy. The Bills have been running low on citrus.  No wait, rickets, no gout, no chronic halitosis.

 

All kidding aside, it was probably the flu.  Remember before COVID, the most common virus every flipping year.

 

Who cares?  We won and now it’s time to destroy this Opponent!  It’s time to make it 6 out of 7 times in 3 years.  In a few more weeks it will be 7 out of 8 times.

[Frez]

I have a feeling Buffalo shows up this Thursday night and plays a great game we have all been waiting for. 
 

Bills 23 Pats 17

[Playoffs?]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Again. This season is ridiculous.

It is absurd. The guys that aren’t injured are sick. You can’t make this up. 

19 minutes ago, Frez said:

I have a feeling Buffalo shows up this Thursday night and plays a great game we have all been waiting for. 
 

Bills 23 Pats 17

I feel ya… but if it’s the great game we’ve all been waiting for, would prefer 40-7, and maybe not another couch heart attack.