Erik Turner: Ken Dorsey bears the brunt of the blame for red zone woes

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Yes. You cannot be a successful defensive coordinator if you don't understand what offenses are doing and what the rules are within the schemes they are attacking you with.

 

Why people can't understand this is a puzzlement.

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Yes. You cannot be a successful defensive coordinator if you don't understand what offenses are doing and what the rules are within the schemes they are attacking you with.

Even so, there will be a drop off in expertise as far as knowledge on offense is concerned. Especially if you’re comparing McD to Reid or McD to McVay. He will never be in that class.

 

The Bills could hire just about anyone to come coach here. Why not find the next McVay? I mean, literally the brightest minds would be salivating to come here. Why go with the DC whose teams fall apart in big moments? Allen is our best player, bar none, get a QB whisperer to come here to help him realize his true potential. At that point we have permanent stability on offense.

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

Even so, there will be a drop off in expertise as far as knowledge on offense is concerned. Especially if you’re comparing McD to Reid or McD to McVay. He will never be in that class.

 

The Bills could hire just about anyone to come coach here. Why not find the next McVay? I mean, literally the brightest minds would be salivating to come here. Why go with the DC whose teams fall apart in big moments? Allen is our best player, bar none, get a QB whisperer to come here to help him realize his true potential. At that point we have permanent stability on offense.

Why do you say this?

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Why do you say this?

It’s the truth. Offenses are what win games in this league. McD is a good coach, but his expertise is on defense. I want a HC whose expertise is on offense to get the most out of Allen. 

[HoofHearted]

Just now, Victory Formation said:

It’s the truth. Offenses are what win games in this league. McD is a good coach, but his expertise is on defense. I want a HC whose expertise is on offense to get the most out of Allen. 

I'm asking why you think there's drop off in expertise of offensive knowledge.

[JohnNord]

15 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

He isn't involved in the offensive gameplan so this makes zero sense.

It makes perfect sense if you want to blame McDermott for everything 

[ColoradoBills]

16 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

It’s the truth. Offenses are what win games in this league. McD is a good coach, but his expertise is on defense. I want a HC whose expertise is on offense to get the most out of Allen. 

 

But it's the OC who is calling the plays.  It's how well these plays are called in sequence and how well they are disguised.

 

Look at Reid.  After Hill left the O is taking what the D gives them.  Mahomes is meticulously moving the ball down the field.

It's not rocket science, it's cat and mouse.  That's as much of a skill as designing the plays (which is also important).

 

Dorsey is new to all of this.  He and McDermott know what has to be done, they just have to execute it better.

Josh being off is hurting BUT a good OC has to know how to get a QB back on track.

 

Like I posted earlier, IMO Dorsey started out on fire and now DCs got tape on him.  The ball is literally back in his court.

We will have to see how he handles it.

[CoudyBills]

At about the 38 second mark of that video, 1st Vikings pick with the long return.  Who is the idiot receiver who runs himself out of bounds allowing the DB to fall off of him and pick that ball?

[mjt328]

I see a lot of smart@$$ comments, about how the Bills still rank high statistically in offense.

 

The problem is, we ran up the stats big in Week 1-2 and then against Pittsburgh with two really big passing plays.  Things have been trending down very quickly since that point, especially in the Red Zone.  Starting in Week 3 (against the Dolphins), the offense has been very spotty and only played good for 1-2 quarters per game.  They either start strong and fade after halftime, or start really flat and need to catch-up.

 

With all the injuries on defense, the Bills can't afford to take multiple weeks to "figure things out" on the offensive side too.  If we don't fix things quickly, this season is going to spiral out of control, and this team will be in serious danger of missing the playoffs.

 

[CSBill]

10 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Heard a stat on NFL radio about this. They said that it was only the second time in the last 10 years that a QB trying to sneak the ball out of their own EZ fumbled it away for a defensive TD. The crazy thing was that the other time was also Josh Allen. Does anybody else remember that?

I’m too lazy to scroll through the thread, did this get answered? I don’t remember it. 

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

There is no Beasley in this offense.  If Crowder doesn’t get hurt, I think the offense looks more in sync.  

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, CoudyBills said:

At about the 38 second mark of that video, 1st Vikings pick with the long return.  Who is the idiot receiver who runs himself out of bounds allowing the DB to fall off of him and pick that ball?

Isaiah McKenzie

[billsbackto81]

12 hours ago, CSBill said:

 

Really? 70,000 people in the stadium knew what was going to be called, and should be called. How about they just did not execute it correctly. It was a 1 in a 100 times failure. Unfortunately, the 1 really bites.

To a regular team, maybe.

 

For the Bills, it's 50/50

[Billsforumsucks]

10 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

We never adequately replaced Beasley thinking McKenzie could just slide into his place. Cole meant alot to Josh and was his safety blanket till that gets rectified with maybe Shakir or someone else these things are still going to happen 

Crowder was the replacement.

5 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

Bellichick is a terrible coach and has WON ZERO SB'S without Brady, FACT!

9 hours ago, Toyo321 said:

It just pisses you off when you watch these games and then rewind some of these plays when they get down in the redzone,  and when you as a fan see they have other options underneath for 5 to 8 yards in which Josh and the OC ignore,  these coaches and players are not on same page.   Josh and our OC constantly ignore the players that are open with a higher percentage of gaining 5 to 8 yards if it was selected.  We go down there inside the 20, 1st down pass incomplete, 2nd down play a piss poor run call selection with no motion or pulling on the line that goes for 2 or 3 yards sometimes a loss of yardage up to 5 yards.  The 3rd pass is incomplete because they are forcing the throw into receivers that are covered and its either incomplete or its picked off.  Then the the 4th down mistakes speak for themselves.

 

There is such terrible play calling when down in the redzone the percentage of these plays working is got to be less than 40%.

 

Everyone on this forum has seen these bone headed play calls and missed opportunities.   How in the world does the OC & his assistants up in the booth watching this game not see these as we do.   Then try to incorporate that into the game at some point.  There is zero improvising with our OC and his play calling.   It's really like watching a college OC call plays, the same stuff is called over and over that is so generic there is no chance of these plays working against a good team.

 

Dorsey has to start realizing that he is not going to get in trouble running plays from last year's playbook that worked.  Why in would someone not continue to use what worked and then expand upon that.  It's not like you are going get fined or sued for using plays that were from a previous OC that actually worked.

 

Our coaching is really pathetic and it is the single biggest fault with this team, and it's true on both sides of the ball, Frazier does not get a free pass on this issue either for not adapting his D during games when its sorely needed.

If this is true, how are we the #2 scoring offense in the league?

[Scott7975]

20 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔

 

If you have a good OC then it makes no difference.  There is a reason the OC position exists just like the DC position exists.  If the OC is good then it doesnt matter if we have a defensive coach.  Most people hate defensive coaches because they think they aren't aggressive enough because they would rather rely on their D and run the football too much or something along those lines.  This isnt the case with McD.  He is one of the more aggressive coaches in the league.

 

You think those guys all started as head coaches?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

A heady player makes sure to subtly bring the DB out of bounds with him. But again I'm not necessarily blaming McKenzie for that, it's a tough play and maybe he doesn't know the rule. The problem is as Peterson intercepts the ball McKenzie still just stands there casually watching him run down field while our QB with an injured elbow makes the extra effort to bring him down. If I'm the coach he's sitting down for the next couple games after that disgusting lack of effort.

 

Its tough to get a look at it but I swear that Petersons foot went OOB as well.  I mentioned this in another thread the other day.  Someone said that rule only applies to the offensive player.  I do not know if that is true or not but in the rule book it only mentions offensive player not a corner. Unless they consider the corner a receiver upon interception.  I just dont know.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

But it's the OC who is calling the plays.  It's how well these plays are called in sequence and how well they are disguised.

 

Look at Reid.  After Hill left the O is taking what the D gives them.  Mahomes is meticulously moving the ball down the field.

It's not rocket science, it's cat and mouse.  That's as much of a skill as designing the plays (which is also important).

 

Dorsey is new to all of this.  He and McDermott know what has to be done, they just have to execute it better.

Josh being off is hurting BUT a good OC has to know how to get a QB back on track.

 

Like I posted earlier, IMO Dorsey started out on fire and now DCs got tape on him.  The ball is literally back in his court.

We will have to see how he handles it.

This is an excellent objective perspective.

I am so pissed at Dorsey I could spit , But.... it Is his 1st year and a bit above his skill set.
he has till the SB to grow into these new shoes.
For now I will remain hopeful he see the challenges and responds to them mightily.

Allen needs better coaching/calling from Ken.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Even so, there will be a drop off in expertise as far as knowledge on offense is concerned. Especially if you’re comparing McD to Reid or McD to McVay. He will never be in that class.

 

The Bills could hire just about anyone to come coach here. Why not find the next McVay? I mean, literally the brightest minds would be salivating to come here. Why go with the DC whose teams fall apart in big moments? Allen is our best player, bar none, get a QB whisperer to come here to help him realize his true potential. At that point we have permanent stability on offense.

 

Teams around the league every season are looking for the next Reid or McVay.  Most of those teams fail every season.  McD is a top coach in this league.  It doesnt matter if he is offensive or defensive coach.  He is a damn good coach and way underappreciated.

[Victory Formation]

47 minutes ago, Flucod said:

Bellichick is a terrible coach and has WON ZERO SB'S without Brady, FACT!

Didn’t he win two with the Giants? 🤔

[Teddy KGB]

This guys an idiot.   It’s Dorsey’s fault Allen keeps throwing the ball right to cornerbacks ? 🤦🏼‍♂️

[Toyo321]

2 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

There is no Beasley in this offense.  If Crowder doesn’t get hurt, I think the offense looks more in sync.  

I was not impressed with Crowder even when he did play, in training camp at SJF he was way to inconsistent.  Now that he is on IR with a a broken ankle I don't see him playing another game as a Bill.  I would rather have Beasley back at this point.  Anything to try and get some type of short slot passing game established again.

 

People may dislike Beasley but he is one tough SOB on the field and he gave us everything he had when he was on the field.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Toyo321

[BarleyNY]

3 hours ago, CSBill said:

I’m too lazy to scroll through the thread, did this get answered? I don’t remember it. 

It did not 

[DrPJax]

23 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Those were both blown plays by Allen imo…although there’s probably plenty of evidence of suspect playcalling by Dorsey I’m sure.  Peterson is kind of full of sh*t there lol 

 

allen had gabe in the back of the end zone for a likely td with minimal risk of anything worse than an incompletion and he completely missed the throw.  
The route concept was perfect  against that defense and Peterson was beat by a step

 

 

the sneak I still believe was the right call Allen just botched that one too…doesn’t at all matter that they telegraphed it.  When have you seen a sneak lose a half yard in nfl history even if the defense is loaded up to stop it and that’s before you could even get leverage from someone pushing from behind.   I think Allen was looking ahead and trying to take away some of the potential difficulty of the following play on the off chance they lost some fraction of a yard and he tried to run before securing the snap. 
 

 

Fumble was 100% on Allen , it’s obvious as the ball hit him I the hands as he was trying to go to the right.  My issue is lack of awareness by gabe about the fumble and as you mentioned , it’s obvious with the motion when the snap is coming.  Dorsey is not adjusting to his own tendencies. 
 

The pass play just didn’t need to even be called at that point. We were driving the ball and we had time.  Dorsey giving up on the run is to common and he is interested in “ balance” of playcalling, not really staying focused or sticking with what has been working or going on in the game.  If Dorsey’s play calling was good , we wouldn’t have gone 3 games without a td in the second half.   Those route are  concepts , if you watched Eric’s video, have not been perfect. They look terrible, predictable, unimaginative, and the spacing between players is repeatedly so poor that they are dragging defensive players into the plays!   It’s gone on for at least 3 games now. Allen gies thru the progressions , most of the time no one is open and they are not good enough scrambling to make up for covered routes and Allen is getting hung out to dry.  
 

We won’t beat quality teams with the offense being called and executed like it is now.  Other than Diggs , no one is making plays in the red zone and Dorsey keeps refusing to run consistently.  This looks like a hot mess right now. Mcd better realize this as well in the red zone and quit giving up fgs and take the points when available. Being up 13 in this game would have sealed things. People focused on it still only being two possessions for the vikes to tie , forget we could have been under less pressure and added a second fg perhaps , either keeping or retaking the lead unless the vikes got 2 tds with 2, 2 point conversions.
 

The coaching decisions are losing games. Unless they suddenly reverse these offensive failures in the second half , this team is in trouble regarding the playoffs. Even if they make it they have will most likely have lost home field advantage once more and that’s a shame.  I don’t see them running the table or the rest of their afc east schedule unless Dorsey improves , Davis improves his consistency, they run better , and both White & Poyer return and stay healthy.  There is just too much talent in the division and the Chiefs and Titans are coming on again and we likely would end up playing them once again away from Buffalo.  injuries and Dorsey’s inexperience as an OC I think have probably derailed this teams SB run without all those changes I mentioned happening. It could be another “ learning “ season under Mcd , but it didn’t have to go that way if Dorsey was more creative.  Hope They turn it around , but I’m not counting on it unless  they prove they can control the next two winnable games. 

[78thealltimegreat]

7 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

This guys an idiot.   It’s Dorsey’s fault Allen keeps throwing the ball right to cornerbacks ? 🤦🏼‍♂️

Yes it is against the Jets Josh didn’t throw a single pass between the hashmarks despite plays being there all day that’s play design 

8 hours ago, Flucod said:

Crowder was the replacement.

Bellichick is a terrible coach and has WON ZERO SB'S without Brady, FACT!

If this is true, how are we the #2 scoring offense in the league?

Well that didn’t work out too well now did it 

[UKBillFan]

Like on defense, I’d say the issue is more execution than play calling. I’m not sure how Dorsey is to blame for Josh throwing utterly incomprehensible interceptions in moments that matter? Obviously there are situations where we can say the calling could be better but it’s not the principle reason we lost to either the Jets or the Vikings. Individual mistakes are.

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Yes it is against the Jets Josh didn’t throw a single pass between the hashmarks despite plays being there all day that’s play design 

Well that didn’t work out too well now did it 

I sincerely hope that you are right and that it’s not Josh just going for the kill when he knew he had the underneath route

 

honestly, I think he’s on the benefit of the doubt but that’s just me

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Like on defense, I’d say the issue is more execution than play calling. I’m not sure how Dorsey is to blame for Josh throwing utterly incomprehensible interceptions in moments that matter? Obviously there are situations where we can say the calling could be better but it’s not the principle reason we lost to either the Jets or the Vikings. Individual mistakes are.

The question about offensive coaching arises from the complete lack of production in the 2nd half of the last 3 games.  That is a big enough sample size to wonder if Dorsey and company are up to making the proper halftime adjustments.

 

The Bills have scored 62 points in the 1st half of the last 3 games.  This prorates out to about 40 points per game.  So player execution and game plan have been excellent in the 1st half of the last 3 games.  Allen has also been excellent turning the ball over only once during the 1st half. 

 

The drop off in the 2nd half can be more rationally explained by a failure to adjust the offensive game plan then a sudden, mysterious collapse in payer performance - including Allen.  A bad 2nd half game plan will look a lot like poor player execution every time.

 

IMO part of this can be blamed on the Bills lack of a running game when they need it and defensive inconsistency (long time consuming drives or quick scoring strikes) that lead to Allen and the offense pressing to much.  And pressing against defenses that have adjusted from their first half beating at the hands of the Bills offense is a license for turnovers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UKBillFan]

 

The question about offensive coaching arises from the complete lack of production in the 2nd half of the last 3 games.  That is a big enough sample size to wonder if Dorsey and company are up to making the proper halftime adjustments.

 

The Bills have scored 62 points in the 1st half of the last 3 games.  This prorates out to about 40 points per game.  So player execution and game plan have been excellent in the 1st half of the last 3 games.  Allen has also been excellent turning the ball over only once during the 1st half. 

 

The drop off in the 2nd half can be more rationally explained by a failure to adjust the offensive game plan then a sudden, mysterious collapse in payer performance - including Allen.  A bad 2nd half game plan will look a lot like poor player execution every time.

 

IMO part of this can be blamed on the Bills lack of a running game when they need it and defensive inconsistency (long time consuming drives or quick scoring strikes) that lead to Allen and the offense pressing to much.  And pressing against defenses that have adjusted from their first half beating at the hands of the Bills offense is a license for turnovers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a valid point though, in none of the last three games, did the offense need to over press or feel the need to score quickly. We were ahead in each. We just needed to protect the ball and dink and dunk. In all three interceptions, for example, Josh had dink and dunk opportunities available to him but he didn't take them. If you're down by a sizeable amount then perhaps you need to press but not when leading - not to the extent we appear to press.

[78thealltimegreat]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I sincerely hope that you are right and that it’s not Josh just going for the kill when he knew he had the underneath route

 

honestly, I think he’s on the benefit of the doubt but that’s just me

A week ago people where talking Tommy John surgery for him and when your QB has over 400 yards of total offense and people thinks he’s playing terribly it goes to show you how spoiled this fan base is with him. Those of us that remember the days of trying to get Kyle Orton out of retirement get used to 10 years of that coming up if this board gets its wish and hes traded at the end of the season. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

We need a larger sample size before we can determine things are truly different or gone south from Daboll to Dorsey. So far, this season is nearly identical to last season through the same number of games. If anything, Allen was even better in September/October to start this season then he was last season. And then come November the offense stalled, and Allen's play went down. Allen and the offense seemed to regain form on Thanksgiving last year (I'm throwing out the wind storm game the following week). We have the Thanksgiving game coming up in less than a week. Let's see if this recent skid in the offense will just be a 2-3 game skid like it was last season.

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

We need a larger sample size before we can determine things are truly different or gone south from Daboll to Dorsey. So far, this season is nearly identical to last season through the same number of games. If anything, Allen was even better in September/October to start this season then he was last season. And then come November the offense stalled, and Allen's play went down. Allen and the offense seemed to regain form on Thanksgiving last year (I'm throwing out the wind storm game the following week). We have the Thanksgiving game coming up in less than a week. Let's see if this recent skid in the offense will just be a 2-3 game skid like it was last season.

Hope the down trending will turn into some self evaluation that makes the Bills Coaching staff work harder to take corrective actions.
 For me I would like to see more steady rhythm type offense, get that run game established.
Make them play the line of scrimmage to create single coverage over.

 Dink and dunk is fine. Play horizontal like Daboll used to talk about.
Spread the ball around and please, lets gets the YAC route going.

 

Hines/ Cook would be great option here

 Go Bills

[frostbitmic]

We suck in the Red Zone ? ... It's like De'ja vu all over again.

 

We were bad in the Red Zone last year too. Once we get inside the 40, we need to go for the End Zone on every play.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:58 PM, Victory Formation said:

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

 

[Victory Formation]

27 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

And if Brady was his QB in that matchup instead of Mac Jones?

[Nextmanup]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:53 PM, Victory Formation said:

McD is a good coach, not a great one. He’s a defensive guru whose defenses crap the bed in big moments. He’s not the offensive innovator that Josh Allen needs.

This is why they have an offensive coordinator...to handle offense.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not really related to McDermott at all.  

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

6 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

And if Brady was his QB in that matchup instead of Mac Jones?

What does that have to do with their defense giving up 47 points ? Does Brady play corner back ?

[Scott7975]

9 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

We suck in the Red Zone ? ... It's like De'ja vu all over again.

 

We were bad in the Red Zone last year too. Once we get inside the 40, we need to go for the End Zone on every play.

 

The Bills were #1 in red zone scoring last season.

[BuffaloBill]

Really good analysis. The crime is that if an unprofessional blogger can figure all of this out do you not think professional coaches can?  

[finn]

32 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

Really good analysis. The crime is that if an unprofessional blogger can figure all of this out do you not think professional coaches can?  

So you think only professional coaches can spot their own patterns? And that they will necessarily respond effectively if they can? 

 

I think it's quite plausible that other teams have figured out Dorsey's tendencies in the red zone and Dorsey, a rookie coordinator, has been slow to respond. Even the Bills' opponents have been crowing about how predictable the Bills offense has become. 

[Big Turk]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:02 AM, Not at the table Karlos said:

The head coach should be involved in everything. Belichick was a defensive coordinator and a defensive head coach. He called up Urban Meyer to learn the spread and how to score more points. Great coaches learn the entire game. That's why belichick has his coaches start on the opposite side of the ball so you can understand how defenses will try to stop you and you know how to adjust.  He should be able to help Dorsey with his game plans or designs. If he's not or can't we seriously need to look into replacing him 

 

 

How's that working out for them? Their offense is a trainwreck. Defensive players are calling out the plays they are running with regularity 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Big Turk