Allen: "The Fumble" Context

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

It’s a stupid stupid play. Mind boggling stupid. A QB sneak should never be attempted on your own goaline. Especially with the personnel we have. It’s why I’m officially done with McD/Dorsey. 

You have a 250 pound 6 foot 5 quarterback and you have had zero problems with snaps between him and Morse all game and maybe the season?  It's the safest play you could do with the least likelihood of taking a safety.  Allen blew it in the worst possible way but you have to trust your 43 million dollar man to handle the snap cleanly.  Allen absolutely choked but it was the right call.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 hours ago, Beast said:

I don’t know if the sneak was the proper call. Why? Because we arguably have the worst interior line in the league. 
 

What is the proper call there? I’m not sure. Maybe a quick pitch to the outside? A greater chance for a loss and a safety but the Bills had some success today outside running the ball. Maybe a quick pass from the shotgun? 

Honestly I was saying throw the ball. Possibly early in the season they throw it. Maybe coaches lost a little confidence in Allen.

[Gisele]

The big problem I see is that we are doing the Gabe push way too often.  The defense knew when we were going to snap the ball because Davis stopped behind Josh.   Dorsey isn't calling anything different week to week and defenses have figured us out.  Dorsey is new and I expect this from him.  McDermott is not and he has veto power.  

[without a drought]

If you can't get the snap right, it doesn't matter what the play was.

[BuffaloRebound]

It was the right call, but how about a hard count when you know the defense is gonna jump the snap?  Worst case, the ball gets moved back 6 inches and you do it again.  At this point, it’s really hard to have any faith that our coaching staff can do what it needs to do to finish games.   

[Airseven]

The context is how bad the OL is. Allen knows they’re about to get blown back and you can see it coming as soon as the lines form up for the snap. Allen panics and presses. It’s happened time and time again. 
 

The question is: why QB sneak it when you know you have no leverage, no push from the OL? Should have been some kind of rollout (shotgun?) where Allen has the chance to run for a couple yards or throw it away.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, John Gianelli said:

Why not roll out Josh? If he's sure he can gain a yard or two, let him run. If he thinks he'll get sacked, throw the ball away.

Now that the pain has subsided a little I’ve come around to the sneak…I don’t think we had ever been stopped on a traditional qb sneak up to that point in the josh Allen era and now you add in the fact that he can get pushed from behind.  
 

the rollout SHOULDVE been riskier but of course we all have the power of hindsight now lol 

[LabattBlue]

14 minutes ago, without a drought said:

If you can't get the snap right, it doesn't matter what the play was.

^^^ This is all that needs to be said. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

^^^ This is all that needs to be said. 

Yep…a rollout you’ve got the same snap risk and you’re risking ints too imo.  Unfortunately we had two 100 to 1 miracle plays go against us this game 

 

Of course it never should’ve come to that though 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Dan Darragh]

10 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

Johnston is a complete moron for even suggesting it.

Johnston is a complete moron even if he doesn't suggest it.  What an awful broadcast team.

[Airseven]

21 minutes ago, without a drought said:

If you can't get the snap right, it doesn't matter what the play was.

Clear difference between Allen rushing a snap where he knows he has to burrow forward behind a blown up line vs. a snap where he can move back and away from pressure.

[Ned Flanders]

10 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t think we had ever been stopped on a traditional qb sneak up to that point in the josh Allen era

The MNF game last year at Tennessee on fourth down and a yard to go.

[Dan Darragh]

8 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

 I’m officially done with McD/Dorsey. 

Just wondering, is there an office, like the County Clerk's Office, where you have to record that you're done in order for it to be "official"?  Otherwise you could just revoke it or deny it and then what's the point?

 

Maybe it's like the Putative Father Registry (yes, there really is such a thing).

[pocoboy]

The thinking man would have burned a delay of game (what do you lose, 3 inches?) and tried like hell to draw them Offside. You get them to jump, you win. Plain and simple.

 

If that ends up failing, I guess you stick with the same play you ran anyway.

[JohnnyBuffalo]

10 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It's really tough when you can't reliably win short yardage situations on offense

This is the most concerning issue IMO.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, Ned Flanders said:

The MNF game last year at Tennessee on fourth down and a yard to go.

I don’t think that was a designed sneak but I’ll check it out again cuz a couple people have said that…looked like a different play where josh had the option of calling his own number 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[dorquemada]

10 hours ago, Beast said:

I don’t know if the sneak was the proper call. Why? Because we arguably have the worst interior line in the league. 
 

 

 

Yup.  Maybe strait up worst OL in the league.  Is Dawkins supposed to be good?  All i've seen of him the last 3 games or so is being an example of how not to play OL

[Brandon]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I thought it was the correct call.  Just horrible execution and a complete choke job.  Better days ahead.

 

Yeah,  I don't have an issue with the playcall.  It's been working all year and it's the only thing resembling a consistent short yardage play that they have. 

[without a drought]

13 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Clear difference between Allen rushing a snap where he knows he has to burrow forward behind a blown up line vs. a snap where he can move back and away from pressure.

No one was being asked to do anything that isn't basic fundamentals.

[Beast]

I just think a snap from the shotgun spreads a defense out more and gives a better opportunity, whether Allen or the RB carry the ball or a pass. That Minnesota defense was stacked over center. Yes, maybe they don’t get caught for a safety with a clean exchange. I’m just not betting on that.

[Olliemets]

I am haunted by something I said yesterday just before the snap.

 

We're relieved by the stand on 4th and goal. My daughter says "Thank God this is over".

 

She's 31 and loves sports and especially sports movies.

I told her.  They are on their own  1 with 40 seconds left. Haven't you seen "All the Right Moves?"

 

She said no, One of the rare films she hasn't seen.

 

After the play I told "Well....you don't have to see it now. You just saw it"

 

Unbelievable. The Karmic, superstitious part of me thinks it's my fault.🙄

 

 

[WyoAZBillfan]

8 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

It’s a stupid stupid play. Mind boggling stupid. A QB sneak should never be attempted on your own goaline. Especially with the personnel we have. It’s why I’m officially done with McD/Dorsey. 

[4merper4mer]

33 minutes ago, pocoboy said:

The thinking man would have burned a delay of game (what do you lose, 3 inches?) and tried like hell to draw them Offside. You get them to jump, you win. Plain and simple.

 

If that ends up failing, I guess you stick with the same play you ran anyway.

Interesting.  Is there a limit I the rules to how any delay of games in a row can happen before it’s called a safety?  Could they have kept trying until next Thursday?

[Ned Flanders]

17 minutes ago, Olliemets said:

Haven't you seen "All the Right Moves?"

I actually thought the same thing afterwards...poor Rifleman, put into that position by a coach who was nothing more than a typing teacher.

[Back2Buff]

11 hours ago, John Gianelli said:

Why not roll out Josh? If he's sure he can gain a yard or two, let him run. If he thinks he'll get sacked, throw the ball away.

 

Yeap, McDermott should have went to Josh before the series and said immediately roll to the right out of the pocket and if you have the opportunity to run, then do it, if not launch it as far as you can.  How many seconds would have came off it they did that three times.  Probably gets you down to 15 secs on 4th.  At that point to look into a safety.

[Motorin']

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

I didn’t say we’re at that point.   
 

He’s rebuilt the team with Beane and Allen is THE reason for the success.  
 

So that it?  He’s untouchable because he’s benefiting from everything being awful here for 20 years.  
 

Nope.  Excellence only.  And avoid losses for the ages.  

 

When the 'Fire McD' thread popped up last season, my only contribution was to contemplate "what if he's a Dan Reeves" type figure. A guy that can always make his team competitive and just on the cusp of greatness, but never seal the deal.

 

Elway was 37 when he finally won his first Super Bowl. They had fired Reeves and brought back his former OC, Mike Shanahan. 

 

And I put it out to the board, when do we ask that question? 

 

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

1 hour ago, pocoboy said:

The thinking man would have burned a delay of game (what do you lose, 3 inches?) and tried like hell to draw them Offside. You get them to jump, you win. Plain and simple.

 

If that ends up failing, I guess you stick with the same play you ran anyway.

yep.  That’s what I said above.  There’s no downside to trying to draw them Offside at least once.  And probably a better than 70% chance the Vikings would’ve jumped.  And even if they don’t, it makes them think twice about jumping the snap.  

McDermott hasn’t shown the ability to think on his feet.  Josh hasn’t for that matter either.  

[Shaw66]

The 49ers ran a QB sneak for a TD against the Chargers last night, sometime in the second half.  From the one.  The Chargers had three defensive linemen nose-to-nose with them.  They were lined up on the goal line, their heads between the one and the goal line.  After the play, all three of those guys were two-yards+ deep in the end zone.   One center and two guards, alone, drove all three of them back there. 

 

There's been continuing discussion on this board about how the Bills ignore the offensive line in the top of the draft.   Yesterday, again, they paid the price for bottom feeding for offensive linemen.  

[pocoboy]

52 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Interesting.  Is there a limit I the rules to how any delay of games in a row can happen before it’s called a safety?  Could they have kept trying until next Thursday?

 

I think you have a decent chance of drawing them off the first time, especially if you rush to the line and follow your normal cadences. The defenders would be so keyed up to stop that dive.

 

Have no clue if there's a limit, but even one hard sell (to the point your OL move, how does that hurt you as well?) gets them to be even more cognizant on the next one.

 

[damj]

12 hours ago, John Gianelli said:

Why not roll out Josh? If he's sure he can gain a yard or two, let him run. If he thinks he'll get sacked, throw the ball away.

If we hold in the end zone, it's a safety and we're back to square one. 

 

The sneak was the right call, just poorly executed

[QCity]

1 hour ago, without a drought said:

If you can't get the snap right, it doesn't matter what the play was.

 

[damj]

According to WGR this isn't the first time Josh has fumbled a snap inside his own one.

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, damj said:

According to WGR this isn't the first time Josh has fumbled a snap inside his own one.

…it is the first time that if he didn’t fumble the snap, the game would have been over. 

[damj]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

…it is the first time that if he didn’t fumble the snap, the game would have been over. 

 

That is true. 

 

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. First time .. okay, a freak thing. That he has now done it twice is concerning.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Allen has a hard time under center with a QB sneak.  He cost us this game and he cost us Tennessee game last yea, also recall the Dallas Thanksgiving day fumble which he did pick up and wrestled for a massive first down.'

 

I dont trust Josh at all on QB sneaks.

 

Brady at his peak was almost a guaranteed first down on QB sneaks, so quick and fluid, Allen is not, a lot of excess motion and kinda of lumbers through it allowing the defense a micro second longer to get to the ball.

 

 

• He needs extensive practice or we should abandoned QB sneaks,

8 minutes ago, damj said:

According to WGR this isn't the first time Josh has fumbled a snap inside his own one.

How many snaps has he taken inside huis own one, in his entire pro career yesterday may have been the first.

[peterpan]

Are people really questioning the sneak!?!? The problem is Josh sucks at sneaks.  He fumbles and slips and for some reason can’t execute them.  The team now designs it where Davis or a TE motions over and pushes Allen forward bc he can’t get them on his own.  It’s embarrassing really.

Edited November 14, 2022 by peterpan

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, dorquemada said:

 

Yup.  Maybe strait up worst OL in the league.  Is Dawkins supposed to be good?  All i've seen of him the last 3 games or so is being an example of how not to play OL

He's inconsistent. Sometimes good. Sometimes not.

[CountDorkula]

12 hours ago, Big Turk said:

They had 3 downs to make sure we get out of the endzone to be able to run the clock out. The sneak was dumb because everyone knew it was coming. Allen running from the shotgun to the outside would have likely sealed the game.

Everyone knows a run is coming on 4th and inches yet it’s somehow nearly impossible to stop. 
 

I’ve seen that play countless times, I’ve only seen it botched that badly once, and that was yesterday. 
 

the call was fine, the execution was not. 

[Allen2Moulds]

I didn't like the call, because it was too obvious. In my opinion, the safety is worse in that situation. Why can't we just run our offense? Would we normally try a sneak from that close in? Use Josh's legs, with th run/pass option.

 

We were out coached all game.

[dorquemada]

7 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

I didn't like the call, because it was too obvious. In my opinion, the safety is worse in that situation. Why can't we just run our offense? Would we normally try a sneak from that close in? Use Josh's legs, with th run/pass option.

 

We were out coached all game.

 

4 games in a row now.  If Green Bay wasn't a dumpster fire things might be even worse