John from Riverside Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 I’m just here for the Memes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, Doc said: OK, so 12%. Thanks for that info. Do you know what was his production was on those 23 targets? Haven't managed to find that anywhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaenon Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 Last 3 seasons: Player 1 331 REC for 4,082 yards and 29 TDs Player 2 293 REC for 3,890 yards and 24 TDs Pretty comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BigDingus said: He could be, but he may not have more success tonight (don't hate me 😅) Diggs is going up against Ramsey, while Cupp is going up against Dane Jackson (7th round pick in 2020) & a rookie 1st rounder in Elam. Or maybe our 6th round rookie Benford Will be paired up against him on occasion... Either way it's a lot of green, young players being asked to go up against the #1 WR in the league last year & a top 10 player in the league (according to players). According to GMF, when matched up together, Ramsey held Diggs to 2 receptions for 9 yards on 4 targets the last 2 games they went at it (I didn't check to verify though). So Diggs may be "better" in terms of talent, but Cupp is in the better position to put up numbers. Kupp principally lines up in the slot. He is expected to line up against Taron Johnson, our nickel or "slot" corner, who is ranked as one of the top 5 slot corners in the league. If Kupp goes deep, he'll be handed off to whoever is responsible for the next "zone" in the Bills predominantly zone D. The Bills do play man, but the chances that they'll put Dane Jackson alone in man on Kupp are pretty small. -------------------------------------- I don't understand stuff like "when matched up together" stuff. The Bills have only played the Vikings once since Diggs became a Bill, in 2020. So they're basically looking at 2 games played 5 years apart, when both players were on different teams in different systems, and then looking at a portion of that game when they decided that Ramsey was covering Diggs in man, not even the whole game. In 2020, how the Rams covered Diggs was moderately successful, as Diggs had 4 receptions on 6 targets for 49 yds and 1 TD. That's not a huge game, especially for Diggs in 2020, but it's not exactly a shutout, either. By contrast, Beasley killed them for 100 yds and Davis "ate" for 81, so it's fair to say that the Rams probably focused on taking Diggs away and at times, maybe Ramsey was covering someone else who got receptions. It's not 2 receptions for 9 yards for Diggs on the game. If you go back further than that, then you're talking Diggs in a different system with a different QB in Minnesota and Ramsey in a different system with a different DC in Jacksonville. And Diggs caught 3 passes on 5 targets for 55 yds that day, so again, it's not a great day - But it's not 2 receptions for 9 yards on the game either. Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Richard Noggin said: Diggs has fewer plays designed to get HIM open quickly as a product of bunches and picks and motions and et cetera. Diggs plays a more traditional X role more often than Kupp does. Right on the line, out wide, releasing and running routes. Working against presses and brackets and doubles and buzzes and et cetera. Kupp gets a lot of defensive attention, no doubt, but there's more scheming designed to disrupt that attention and get him the ball nonetheless. Methinks the Bills have sought to play it slightly more "straight-up" so that extra attention paid to Diggs opens up other favorable matchups. Or, conversely, a lack of extra coverage attention means Diggs sees the ball, a lot. In theory. So in another thread, there were some tweets linked where this guy who is evidently a DB coach dissected some Rams offensive plays. I think the opposing teams were SF, GB, and SEA. And Kupp made them look baaaaaaaadddddd. It was surgical how McVay's offense allowed them to smoothly dissect the opponent's zone, and Kupp was ridiculously open with ridiculous room to run. Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Fixit Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 I miss real Bills fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 (edited) On 9/7/2022 at 8:59 AM, nucci said: and Diggs isn't helped by Allen and Bills system? Not to the same degree, no. They're really playing very different roles as WR. Diggs has succeeded in two very different offensive systems. In the Bills system, he primarily lines up outside, where he draws the lion's share of the coverage. A lot of his receptions come on "secondary route concepts" or "scramble drills" which depend more upon the WR's "mind meld" with the QB and ability to exploit the coverage he sees in real time. Josh throws him a fair number of "my ball, or no one's ball" completions into tight coverage. This is reflected in his YAC, which are puny. 8.7 YBC, 3.2 YAC similar the year before. Kupp primarily (Edit: just read 88% of the time) lines up in the slot. A lot of his success depends on play designs which exploit the gaps in the zone, as well as his ability to juke a slot corner out of his cleats or outrun him when covered in man. That said, once he gets the ball in his hands, Kupp's success depends upon his extraordinary RAC abilities. In 2 of Kupp's 4 years in the league, he's had more YAC than YBC. 2021, 7.6 YBC 5.8 YAC. Partly this is the result of play design that leaves him so wide open it's embarrassing, but it also depends upon undeniable skill from Kupp - "body control" and a keen awareness of the play picture. Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyobills89 Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Wyobills89 said: Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. Yes. Well, it was 2020, not last year as we didn't play the Rams last year. But yes, yes he did. https://www.nfl.com/videos/stefon-diggs-beats-jalen-ramsey-for-td-in-back-of-the-end-zone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsrul120 Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 12 hours ago, billsbackto81 said: I love Diggs! I think he helped propel JA into elite status in the NFL. BUT...... Diggs in the playoffs was 3 rec/ 60 yds, 0 TDs against the Pats and 3 rec /7 yds 0 TDs against KC Kupp in the playoffs was 5 rec/ 61 yds 1TD against Arizona, 9 rec/ 183 yds 1 TD against TB, 11 rec/142 and 2 TDs against SF and 8 rec / 92 yards 2 TDs against Cinn in the SB. Now as I said I'm a big Diggs fan and we could compare the body of work over their careers, but if we go by last years playoffs and if this were an actual debate I would literally destroy you to the point you would walk out the room in tears. I don't have much of an opinion about whether Diggs or Kupp is better but in the interest of having a real debate and bringing people to tears: The Bills scored an 47 and 36 points in 2 postseason games The Rams scored 34, 30, 20, 17 So whatever Diggs was bringing to the table was clearly helping the Bills more than Kupp was helping the Rams. If Diggs wasn't being targeted much it was because teams sold out to stop him and all costs and Bills offense was prolific. So from a team scoring standpoint Diggs had a huge effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 1 hour ago, billsrul120 said: I don't have much of an opinion about whether Diggs or Kupp is better but in the interest of having a real debate and bringing people to tears: The Bills scored an 47 and 36 points in 2 postseason games The Rams scored 34, 30, 20, 17 So whatever Diggs was bringing to the table was clearly helping the Bills more than Kupp was helping the Rams. If Diggs wasn't being targeted much it was because teams sold out to stop him and all costs and Bills offense was prolific. So from a team scoring standpoint Diggs had a huge effect. I think maybe this thread has run its course? Having said that, I’m hoping that after tonight it’s back in full force, Diggs having proven the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 4 hours ago, Wyobills89 said: Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. Two years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said: Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. They have jalen Ramsey to cover diggs and on que Edited September 9, 2022 by Buffalo716 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Diggs owns Ramsey 2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. Kupp against rookie and safeties, Diggs against Ramsey and making him look silly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 15 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: They have jalen Ramsey to cover diggs and on que I did say “not better than Kupp.” I think we’re seeing they’re two of the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I did say “not better than Kupp.” I think we’re seeing they’re two of the best. I don’t think Kupp could operate on the outside like Diggs Diggs would also excel in the slot I think Diggs is more versatile … Kupp is a slot nightmare … Even when he’s by himself he’s usually in line closer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 10 hours ago, Beck Water said: Kupp principally lines up in the slot. He is expected to line up against Taron Johnson, our nickel or "slot" corner, who is ranked as one of the top 5 slot corners in the league. If Kupp goes deep, he'll be handed off to whoever is responsible for the next "zone" in the Bills predominantly zone D. The Bills do play man, but the chances that they'll put Dane Jackson alone in man on Kupp are pretty small. -------------------------------------- I don't understand stuff like "when matched up together" stuff. The Bills have only played the Vikings once since Diggs became a Bill, in 2020. So they're basically looking at 2 games played 5 years apart, when both players were on different teams in different systems, and then looking at a portion of that game when they decided that Ramsey was covering Diggs in man, not even the whole game. In 2020, how the Rams covered Diggs was moderately successful, as Diggs had 4 receptions on 6 targets for 49 yds and 1 TD. That's not a huge game, especially for Diggs in 2020, but it's not exactly a shutout, either. By contrast, Beasley killed them for 100 yds and Davis "ate" for 81, so it's fair to say that the Rams probably focused on taking Diggs away and at times, maybe Ramsey was covering someone else who got receptions. It's not 2 receptions for 9 yards for Diggs on the game. If you go back further than that, then you're talking Diggs in a different system with a different QB in Minnesota and Ramsey in a different system with a different DC in Jacksonville. And Diggs caught 3 passes on 5 targets for 55 yds that day, so again, it's not a great day - But it's not 2 receptions for 9 yards on the game either. I honestly didn't know how accurate the Diggs stats against Ramsey were, just sharing what they said on GMF. However, we've already see Kupp lined up against our 6th & 7th round corners today, beating them consistently (along with Johnson & our safeties). It's pretty clear so far that my prediction about him having a good performance against our DBs was accurate. 8 receptions on 9 targets for 56 yards & 1 TD. Diggs has been good too though, 6 receptions on 6 targets for 62 yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 I had diggs hot sauce tonight and I guarantee it kicks kupp’s ass Diggs has 69 yards. Nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 42 minutes ago, BigDingus said: I honestly didn't know how accurate the Diggs stats against Ramsey were, just sharing what they said on GMF. However, we've already see Kupp lined up against our 6th & 7th round corners today, beating them consistently (along with Johnson & our safeties). It's pretty clear so far that my prediction about him having a good performance against our DBs was accurate. 8 receptions on 9 targets for 56 yards & 1 TD. Diggs has been good too though, 6 receptions on 6 targets for 62 yards. Yeah but Kupp against rookies and safeties and Diggs against All-Pro Ramsey. A little difference there. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynamemike Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Honestly I was a little hesitant about Jordan Phillips coming back. Man it’s good seeing him back wreaking havoc, plus bringing that juice. This has the potential to be very fun this season 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Lol. Doing this to Ramsey. Live on national TV. In a huge game. Diggs owns Ramsey. 2 3 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills404 Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Kupp wouldn’t be jack if he didn’t have the biggest stat padder in the NFL throwing him the ball 4 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 I think they're two sides of the same coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Doug Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 33 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: Lol. Doing this to Ramsey. Live on national TV. In a huge game. Diggs owns Ramsey. And remember Ramsey pooping all over Allen? Lol of the century. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, Saint Doug said: And remember Ramsey pooping all over Allen? Lol of the century. Josh is 3-0 against him. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Well, at least as good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 They are both excellent. As others have said, you have to mention who they played against. Bottom line is Diggs tonight was so good against their ace and it opened up the field for everyone else, even as good as Kupp played, he couldn't accomplish that for his team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Tonight showed a bit what I was trying to say the other day. Kupp was excellent because he absolutely understand his role in that offense and executes it to a tee. He had the nice run after the catch late on... but largely the scheme gets him open and he executes. Stef at times gets himself open when he is perfectly defensed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Just now, GunnerBill said: Tonight showed a bit what I was trying to say the other day. Kupp was excellent because he absolutely understand his role in that offense and executes it to a tee. He had the nice run after the catch late on... but largely the scheme gets him open and he executes. Stef at times gets himself open when he is perfectly defensed. They are both awesome. Diggs is the absolute *goods* for this team and QB. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 I’ll take Stef. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Allen > Stafford. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 9 hours ago, Doc said: Yeah but Kupp against rookies and safeties and Diggs against All-Pro Ramsey. A little difference there. Kupp roasted Poyer in the endzone first TD. It wasn't the secondary that made the difference, it was the QBs. Stafford sailing balls over Kupps head all night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Kupp roasted Poyer in the endzone first TD. It wasn't the secondary that made the difference, it was the QBs. Stafford sailing balls over Kupps head all night. Yeah, he's a safety. And there appeared to be confusion as to who was supposed to take which receiver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Doc said: Yeah, he's a safety. And there appeared to be confusion as to who was supposed to take which receiver. He shouldn't be confused--it's not like they had a lot of field to defend. . He was the only guy near a receiver running a flag route in the EZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 This felt like a statement game for Stef. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: He shouldn't be confused--it's not like they had a lot of field to defend. . He was the only guy near a receiver running a flag route in the EZ. The receivers crossed and Elam (I think) took the inside guy leaving Poyer taking Kupp. Poyer hesitated as if he was supposed to take the other guy. Never mind that Kupp makes top CBs look silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Kupp looks like he wants to come play for the Bills 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefan66 Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 Kupp is a dang good receiver. Great routes, good YAC. Dude is a baller regardless of system. Diggs is a also a dang good receiver. He’s a great route runner, good YAC. Dude is also a baller and elevates those around him. Love his relationship with Josh. They both top 5. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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