Bills disappointed in Elam's potential to contribute this year? (unfounded internet rumor)

[SCBills]

Everyone I’ve listened to that has studied tape says Elam looks good on film.

 

No idea what the problem is. 
 

I’d say our coaches have given us no reason not to trust them, re: the secondary, but man.. Dane is testing my patience.  

[djp14150]

I’m not local

 

has anyone heard of what he might have done to get into the doghouse?  
 

late from practice? Late fora team flight?  

[Dirtbag]

4 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

I’m not local

 

has anyone heard of what he might have done to get into the doghouse?  

pretty sure it involved ranch dressing.

[DrDawkinstein]

45 minutes ago, FireChans said:

NotGreatBob.gif

 

 

Folks are fliping out, but yall need to realize that if everyone (Tre) had been healthy from the start of the season then this is exactly what we would have been seeing all along. With no big worry as to when the kid would develop.

Tre obviously has the #1 spot down. And even with the 1st round pedigree, the 3 year vet has the edge over Elam. We'll see if/when the kid can develop and beat out the vet but I'd be surprised if it happened this year.

 

I'll start to get concerned if he is still sitting next year.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Folks are fliping out, but yall need to realize that if everyone (Tre) had been healthy from the start of the season then this is exactly what we would have been seeing all along. With no big worry as to when the kid would develop.

Tre obviously has the #1 spot down. And even with the 1st round pedigree, the 3 year vet has the edge over Elam. We'll see if/when the kid can develop and beat out the vet but I'd be surprised if it happened this year.

 

I'll start to get concerned if he is still sitting next year.

Counterpoint:  Tre White as a rookie (#27 overall) was an unquestioned starter out of the box, which he maintained his entire rookie year. Kaiir Elam (#23 overall) went from rotational starter, to full time starter for a few games, to benched.  This after letting our unquestioned #2 CB walk in FA which basically opened up a starting spot in our defense.

 

That's... less than ideal

[DrDawkinstein]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Counterpoint:  Tre White as a rookie (#27 overall) was an unquestioned starter out of the box, which he maintained his entire rookie year. Kaiir Elam (#23 overall) went from rotational starter, to full time starter for a few games, to benched.  This after letting our unquestioned #2 CB walk in FA which basically opened up a starting spot in our defense.

 

That's... less than ideal

 

He was an unquestioned starter while competing with the likes of EJ Gaines, Leonard Johnson, and Lafayette Pitts for playing time.

We started Nathan Peterman as a rookie that year too.

 

Heck, all the rookies started considering the lack of talent on the team, Beane wanting to see what he had as he took over, and the Bills' sights set on drafting a QB as high as possible the next year.

 

Tre was great right out of the blocks, I wont deny that. But the situation, and talent levels, were completely different. He wasnt coming to an established team with talented vets in an established system.

 

Elam mostly got playing time early this year for the same reason Benford and JaMarcus Ingram got playing time. Injuries forced the rookies in. We'll see how he develops.

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He was an unquestioned starter while competing with the likes of EJ Gaines, Leonard Johnson, and Lafayette Pitts for playing time.

We started Nathan Peterman as a rookie that year too.

 

Heck, all the rookies started considering the lack of talent on the team, Beane wanting to see what he had as he took over, and the Bills' sights set on drafting a QB as high as possible the next year.

 

Tre was great right out of the blocks, I wont deny that. But the situation, and talent levels, were completely different. He wasnt coming to an established team with talented vets in an established system.

 

Elam mostly got playing time early this year for the same reason Benford and JaMarcus Ingram got playing time. Injuries forced the rookies in. We'll see how he develops.

We started Nate Peterman midway through the year, not week 1.

 

I think it's crazy to think that it's not bad news that Elam can't get on the field when he was definitely drafted to be a starter. He was our first round pick lol.  The plan was not healthy scratch and then 1 snap on ST by the midpoint of the season lol.

 

Rousseau with a similar draft status and a similar log jam of vets at his position was routinely playing 50% of snaps all of last year. Just because McBeane don't regularly make rookies focal points doesn't mean they don't expect them to be contributors.

[artmalibu]

27 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Counterpoint:  Tre White as a rookie (#27 overall) was an unquestioned starter out of the box, which he maintained his entire rookie year. Kaiir Elam (#23 overall) went from rotational starter, to full time starter for a few games, to benched.  This after letting our unquestioned #2 CB walk in FA which basically opened up a starting spot in our defense.

 

That's... less than ideal

 

Big difference is whan Tre came in in 2017 the other CBs were not very good..  

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, artmalibu said:

 

Big difference is whan Tre came in in 2017 the other CBs were not very good..  

Do you think Dane Jackson is immensely superior to Elam?  If yes, then I would argue that's not good lol

[DrDawkinstein]

26 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Rousseau with a similar draft status and a similar log jam of vets at his position was routinely playing 50% of snaps all of last year. Just because McBeane don't regularly make rookies focal points doesn't mean they don't expect them to be contributors.

 

The DL rotates. The DBs dont. Rousseau wasnt close to starting over Hughes and Addison.

[Dr.Sack]

Elam will be fine and my bet is he will play significant snaps come playoff time as the Bills will likely move him to D up the likes of Kelce.

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The DL rotates. The DBs dont. Rousseau wasnt close to starting over Hughes and Addison.

Rousseau was also not a healthy scratch lol

[KDIGGZ]

The coaches are weird about the db's saying even before the season started that Dane earned that spot and someone would have to take it from him. What exactly did he do to earn that spot besides have Wallace walk to a different team? I'm sick of this coaching bias where such and such guy earned their spot. How about best player on Sundays plays? That goes for Shakir over McKenzie too. It should be open competition at every position every week

[Locomark]

8 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

The coaches are weird about the db's saying even before the season started that Dane earned that spot and someone would have to take it from him. What exactly did he do to earn that spot besides have Wallace walk to a different team? I'm sick of this coaching bias where such and such guy earned their spot. How about best player on Sundays plays? That goes for Shakir over McKenzie too. It should be open competition at every position every week

Except Shakir much like Cook misses blocking assignments all the time which is a major sin and will cut your time in this offense. In means you don’t know your fundamentals. I think they see that in Elam at times too. They refuse to lose a playoff game on a blown coverage so they instead will let Dane blow tackles instead. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Locomark

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

 

Until the last drive Dane was burned a lot in the second half. He's been bad the last 3 to 4 games. He's undersized & reacts late. It's been commented on by Joe Bascaglia, Greg Cosell & others & showed up today. This stubborn insistence to rely on Vets by McD is a short sighted weakness. He should play the best player & Dane ain't it. 

 

 

 

 

I mean this “short sighted weakness”  to not play Elam over Dane has resulted in defensive dominance these past 2 weeks giving up 10 points each week only.  
 

I think maybe he sorta knows what he’s doing with those kind of results.  
 

I honestly don’t understand why so much talk about defensive concerns when the defense is thriving and the offense is what has been struggling more with consistency.  

[Donuts and Doritos]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I mean this “short sighted weakness”  to not play Elam over Dane has resulted in defensive dominance these past 2 weeks giving up 10 points each week only.  
 

I think maybe he sorta knows what he’s doing with those kind of results.  
 

I honestly don’t understand why so much talk about defensive concerns when the defense is thriving and the offense is what has been struggling more with consistency.  

 

It's not the Jets or Pats pass offense that concerns me (easier to look good on D versus them). It's KC, Cinci, Miami we need to be ready for. Dane doesn't look like he's up for those tests. Should see what Elam has & get him ready, he looked good 2 weeks ago (Joe Bascaglia even thought his reps were going to increase, instead he was inactive). Hopefully they're right, Dane just seems to get beat consistently. We shall see next week & in 3 weeks against Cinci. 🤞

 

I completely agree offense is way more concerning than D at this point. But this was a D./Elam thread.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Donuts and Doritos

[NewEra]

The fact that he can’t beat out Dane is a big problem.  Maybe it’s just the way McD handles his rookies…..but it’s alarming considering Danes level of play this year

[SCBills]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I mean this “short sighted weakness”  to not play Elam over Dane has resulted in defensive dominance these past 2 weeks giving up 10 points each week only.  
 

I think maybe he sorta knows what he’s doing with those kind of results.  
 

I honestly don’t understand why so much talk about defensive concerns when the defense is thriving and the offense is what has been struggling more with consistency.  

For me, personally, Dane is fine if he can get out of his slump and start playing the ball better .. but he doesn’t have the talent Kaiir Elam has. 
 

We drafted a corner in RD1 (traded up even).   Many of us were hopeful to see White/Elam heading into the playoffs to battle with the high powered offenses we may see.  
 

Dane has been a weak point in - yes - some recent dominant defensive performances.    Elam, on tape, has done nothing to warrant this pseudo-benching. 
 

It is what it is.  This staff knows corners. We’ll have a better feel soon enough with Miami and Cinci coming up. 

[CoudyBills]

9 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Elam will be fine and my bet is he will play significant snaps come playoff time as the Bills will likely move him to D up the likes of Kelce.

Awesome, benched to covering Kelce in a loser goes home situation.  ***** great, no problems there.

[CoudyBills]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I mean this “short sighted weakness”  to not play Elam over Dane has resulted in defensive dominance these past 2 weeks giving up 10 points each week only.  
 

I think maybe he sorta knows what he’s doing with those kind of results.  
 

I honestly don’t understand why so much talk about defensive concerns when the defense is thriving and the offense is what has been struggling more with consistency.  

This brain trust spent a 1st round pick on a corner rather than bolstering the offense.  The glaring weakness on the defensive side is Dane Jackson.  Elam is bigger, faster, and seems to be more of a ball hawk.  Jackson gets beat routinely when covering talented receivers.  Wasting a 1st round pick is bad for business.  

[Warriorspikes51]

I know Dane had a couple nice pass break ups yesterday....he also has been getting destroyed.  Almost everything thrown his way is a completion. 

I don't understand why Xavier was inactive? I thought he's played well enough when given the chance.  Also, if Elam is going to dress then rotate him into the game
 

None of this makes sense to me 

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

 

It's not the Jets or Pats pass offense that concerns me (easier to look good on D versus them). It's KC, Cinci, Miami we need to be ready for. Dane doesn't look like he's up for those tests. Should see what Elam has & get him ready, he looked good 2 weeks ago (Joe Bascaglia even thought his reps were going to increase, instead he was inactive). Hopefully they're right, Dane just seems to get beat consistently. We shall see next week & in 3 weeks against Cinci. 🤞

 

I completely agree offense is way more concerning than D at this point. But this was a D./Elam thread.

 

Fair point on level of competition, and I do agree that I would like to see Elam getting back on the field.  He looked good earlier this year, so wonder what it is that is just keeping him from seeing some snaps.  
 

My main point is that the defense has been a strength when healthy, yet the offense has been mostly healthy and wildly inconsistent.  
 

I’ve got serious concerns about Dorsey still who I don’t think has been good at adjustments thus far or using the personnel better.  

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I know Dane had a couple nice pass break ups yesterday....he also has been getting destroyed.  Almost everything thrown his way is a completion. 

I don't understand why Xavier was inactive? I thought he's played well enough when given the chance.  Also, if Elam is going to dress then rotate him into the game
 

None of this makes sense to me 

 

Elam has been bad in run support.  The last 2 games were against teams that hurt us in the run game. Now, if he is not in against a team with a bad run game like the Fins, then maybe I will think there is something more involved.  Right now, I think it's they don't like his run support and don't want to take a chance teams run at him.

[TheFunPolice]

The kiss of death for getting playing time here is the team drafting you with a first or second round pick. This does seem to be a recent change, though.

 

Logically, one might think it's due to the increased talent level here, but at CB and RB that's a stretch. 

 

Nothing but respect for Singletary's work ethic and effort, but is he SO TALENTED that our 2nd round RB can't see the field? If so, why isn't Singletary more of a focal point?

 

Also, nothing against our non Tre White CBs, but are they SO GOOD that Elam can't crack the lineup? Really? 

 

It's a legitimate concern at this point. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[FilthyBeast]

24 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

The kiss of death for getting playing time here is the team drafting you with a first or second round pick. This does seem to be a recent change, though.

 

Logically, one might think it's due to the increased talent level here, but at CB and RB that's a stretch. 

 

Nothing but respect for Singletary's work ethic and effort, but is he SO TALENTED that our 2nd round RB can't see the field? If so, why isn't Singletary more of a focal point?

 

Also, nothing against our non Tre White CBs, but are they SO GOOD that Elam can't crack the lineup? Really? 

 

It's a legitimate concern at this point. 

 

This regime has shown over the years that they believe in sticking with certain players no matter what because they are either afraid of causing locker room issues/disruptions, or really believe in the 'you have to earn playing time' garbage.

 

But in reality not giving your high draft picks more playing time shows both coaching ineptitude and poor drafting especially when you look at a team like KC whose rookie draft classes make major contributions every year, including their 2022 haul which is may be Veach's best yet.

[DrDawkinstein]

29 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

The kiss of death for getting playing time here is the team drafting you with a first or second round pick. This does seem to be a recent change, though.

 

Logically, one might think it's due to the increased talent level here, but at CB and RB that's a stretch. 

 

Nothing but respect for Singletary's work ethic and effort, but is he SO TALENTED that our 2nd round RB can't see the field? If so, why isn't Singletary more of a focal point?

 

Also, nothing against our non Tre White CBs, but are they SO GOOD that Elam can't crack the lineup? Really? 

 

It's a legitimate concern at this point. 

 

Ehh, coming into this season everyone in and out of Buffalo raved that we had the most talented roster on paper. And if not the most talented, easily a top 3 roster.

 

With that, it makes it harder and harder for rookies to crack into playing time. Even when it is a 1st rounder competing with a former 7th rounder who now happens to be a 3 year vet.

 

In 2017 and 2018, everyone saw playing time because our roster sucked so any new player was an improvement. Now, not so much.

 

Heck, folks wanted Beane to trade picks away because we didn't even have that many open spots on the roster for rookies to even make the team, let alone win a starting spot.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

32 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

The kiss of death for getting playing time here is the team drafting you with a first or second round pick. This does seem to be a recent change, though.

 

Logically, one might think it's due to the increased talent level here, but at CB and RB that's a stretch. 

 

Nothing but respect for Singletary's work ethic and effort, but is he SO TALENTED that our 2nd round RB can't see the field? If so, why isn't Singletary more of a focal point?

 

Also, nothing against our non Tre White CBs, but are they SO GOOD that Elam can't crack the lineup? Really? 

 

It's a legitimate concern at this point. 

Rousseau started every game last year. 

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

The kiss of death for getting playing time here is the team drafting you with a first or second round pick. This does seem to be a recent change, though.

 

Logically, one might think it's due to the increased talent level here, but at CB and RB that's a stretch. 

 

Nothing but respect for Singletary's work ethic and effort, but is he SO TALENTED that our 2nd round RB can't see the field? If so, why isn't Singletary more of a focal point?

 

Also, nothing against our non Tre White CBs, but are they SO GOOD that Elam can't crack the lineup? Really? 

 

It's a legitimate concern at this point. 

Bang on.… ***** makes no sense to me

[Einstein]

So, Frazier said this today. It sounds like he thought Dane Jackson was playing well.

 

 

[The Wiz]

34 minutes ago, Einstein said:

So, Frazier said this today. It sounds like he thought Dane Jackson was playing well.

 

 

Frazier: "we were gonna put Elam in to play but after White went out of the game, we decided to stick with Dane to give him some confidence after giving up 9 catches and 124 yards.  I think it worked out well for him"

[Goin Breakdown]

38 minutes ago, Einstein said:

So, Frazier said this today. It sounds like he thought Dane Jackson was playing well.

 

 

What this tells me is that Frazier has a gambling problem. Just doesn't know when to call

it quits. "The next hand will

be a winner" 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Goin Breakdown

[CoudyBills]

10 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Frazier: "we were gonna put Elam in to play but after White went out of the game, we decided to stick with Dane to give him some confidence after giving up 9 catches and 124 yards.  I think it worked out well for him"

White went out of the game?

[The Wiz]

17 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

White went out of the game?

Mike white.  Sorry.  But he came back also.

 

My comment was a joke either way 

[Ya Digg?]

7 hours ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

Rousseau started every game last year. 

True but Epenesa, Basham, Elam, and Cook have all been healthy scratches at some point 

[KOKBILLS]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

So, Frazier said this today. It sounds like he thought Dane Jackson was playing well.

 

 

 

This is just my opinion...I have not talked to anyone. Don't know anything on the inside. I just have hunches. I had a feeling the Bills might try what I think is going on here when Tre came back. But with Elam being a 1st Round pick, I doubted it would happen. Dane Jackson is LOVED by the coaching staff. He stepped in last year and played pretty well. I think McD and Frazier are going with the assumption that Dane is the #2 until someone beats him out. I don't really care that they're giving the perception of it still being a competition...It's not...At least up to this point. Look at how they handled Levi. They LOVED Levi in that locker room, and I think they love Dane similarly. They are going to need to see something that makes them believe it's a no-brainer if they're going to play Elam over Dane. Of course some will argue that has already happened...They may be right.

 

BTW...I can't explain the week Rhodes started. I have no idea. But Dane was 1st in that week too.

 

Anyway...The problem is, IMHO, they've waited too long already. If Dane truly was playing that well, and Elam had really struggled it would be one thing. But we're going into Week 15, and Elam needs to play. They need to see what he's got in coverage...ESPECIALLY on 3rd and long...For the life of me I don't understand why that kid is not on the field in obvious passing situations. With Tre back, this is the time to see. And Miami, weather permitting of course, is as good a time as any.

 

Look...I doubt very much Hill or Waddle will beat Elam any more than Dane. But one is a 1st round caliber bigger, longer CB with ball skills...The other is Dane Jackson...We're 10-3. If we're at the level of fragility that chancing Elam over Jackson is a threat to winning, then we're not as good as we think we are anyway. Again, JMO...

 

We'll see...

 

[VaMilBill]

24 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

This is just my opinion...I have not talked to anyone. Don't know anything on the inside. I just have hunches. I had a feeling the Bills might try what I think is going on here when Tre came back. But with Elam being a 1st Round pick, I doubted it would happen. Dane Jackson is LOVED by the coaching staff. He stepped in last year and played pretty well. I think McD and Frazier are going with the assumption that Dane is the #2 until someone beats him out. I don't really care that they're giving the perception of it still being a competition...It's not...At least up to this point. Look at how they handled Levi. They LOVED Levi in that locker room, and I think they love Dane similarly. They are going to need to see something that makes them believe it's a no-brainer if they're going to play Elam over Dane. Of course some will argue that has already happened...They may be right.

 

BTW...I can't explain the week Rhodes started. I have no idea. But Dane was 1st in that week too.

 

Anyway...The problem is, IMHO, they've waited too long already. If Dane truly was playing that well, and Elam had really struggled it would be one thing. But we're going into Week 15, and Elam needs to play. They need to see what he's got in coverage...ESPECIALLY on 3rd and long...For the life of me I don't understand why that kid is not on the field in obvious passing situations. With Tre back, this is the time to see. And Miami, weather permitting of course, is as good a time as any.

 

Look...I doubt very much Hill or Waddle will beat Elam any more than Dane. But one is a 1st round caliber bigger, longer CB with ball skills...The other is Dane Jackson...We're 10-3. If we're at the level of fragility that chancing Elam over Jackson is a threat to winning, then we're not as good as we think we are anyway. Again, JMO...

 

We'll see...

 

I like what you’re saying. Absolutely spot on in my opinion. 
 

my fear is they make the switch too late. Obviously if they do it now Elam will be facing Hill/Waddle then the trifecta of Boyd/ Higgins/ Chase. Obviously we will have the bears then patriots. But at that point you’re messing with chemistry going into the playoffs. 
 

dane has shown himself to be in relatively good position, but he just can’t make a play on the ball. We need playmakers and Elam gives us that ability. 

[Solomon Grundy]

9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Elam has been bad in run support.  The last 2 games were against teams that hurt us in the run game. Now, if he is not in against a team with a bad run game like the Fins, then maybe I will think there is something more involved.  Right now, I think it's they don't like his run support and don't want to take a chance teams run at him.

If so, then why have him active for the game and sit Rhodes? 

[Beck Water]

23 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Are we sure about that? I haven’t taken a look at his rep count, but I thought I saw his jersey.

 

No D snaps.  1 ST snap.

 

I guess Frazier isn't swayed by the input of the TBD experts who feel Jackson is part of a contest for which Bills player sucked worst

[Big Turk]

12 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I know Dane had a couple nice pass break ups yesterday....he also has been getting destroyed.  Almost everything thrown his way is a completion. 

I don't understand why Xavier was inactive? I thought he's played well enough when given the chance.  Also, if Elam is going to dress then rotate him into the game
 

None of this makes sense to me 

 

Do you realize Jackson has the lowest completion rates of all the Bills DBs? A little over 60%. Passer Rating of 85

[KOKBILLS]

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Elam has been bad in run support.  The last 2 games were against teams that hurt us in the run game. Now, if he is not in against a team with a bad run game like the Fins, then maybe I will think there is something more involved.  Right now, I think it's they don't like his run support and don't want to take a chance teams run at him.

 

That's fine...And very possible...

 

But it still does not explain why Dane is on the field getting beat regularly in obvious passing situations...At this point is there a Bills fan alive that does not think Dane will be targeted on 3rd and long? I mean. I know it's not going to happen every time. And it's not like Hamlin has helped a ton. But it sure seems like it's Dane a high percentage of times when an Offense does convert...I can't find specific Defensive rankings on 3rd and 10 or more, but the Bills have the 17th ranked 3rd Down Defense...This is an area that has plenty of room for improvement. I realize CB is not the only problem. But it's hard to believe Elam is behind Dane in coverage. It's possible, but tough to believe...

Edited December 13, 2022 by KOKBILLS