Would you be okay if Allen sat the entire preseason?

[GunnerBill]

On 7/23/2022 at 3:49 PM, Nextmanup said:

Nah, that's just fan speak.  Pre-season doesn't need to exist and only does so for money---nothing to do with football development.

 

 

So I disagree that it is "nothing to do with football development" but the idea that Josh needs to play to get used to a new playcaller or a tweaked scheme I agree is an exagerration of the use of pre-season. 

 

It's use in a football development sense is really evaluate the back end of your roster. Your top 20-30 guys are your top 20-30 guy whether they are in practice of an exhibition game but think if it like a pyramid the further you go down the pyramid the more players there are at a similar level of ability and there is merit there to working out which of them look good against friendly fire in practice and which can actually produce when the live bullets are firing. 

 

I am totally with McVay on this. I wouldn't play my 'starters' at all with the exception of a series or two for the rooks. I'd use as much of the 3 games as possible to evaluate the guys who are fighting over the last 10 or 15 spots on my roster and the spaces on my PS. 

[T master]

I know these guys stay in better shape now than ever before and as far as staying in shape there is no real off season ut ever since i can remember i have always heard players say they need to get into playing shape meaning there must be a difference in the playing in a game rather than practice .

 

So i would like for him to at least get some reps in the pre season because the speed is definitely different in a game & then they say when they are in the play offs the intensity ratchets up even more .

 

Which given all the talk by fans & players alike i never understood why they wanted to do away with more & more pre season games because of the difference between practice & game speed/intensity . I know it is more apt to have a injury but if they ramp up slow in camp then ramp up again in pre season then again in the real season that would be better but i'm just a fan !! 

[dollars 2 donuts]

I thought it was going to be a majority for "no".  

 

When I voted "yes" and until the next person votes, I broke a 134 a piece vote.

 

Wow, really didn't think it was that close.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

I voted Yes, because if that is what the Bills decide then I'm fine with. McD, Dorsey, and Beane see him everyday in practice. If they thought there was no need for him to get reps at the risk of injury, then I trust that decision and wouldnt complain or lose any sleep. Fine by me.

 

The only score that matters in the preseason is the number of players that end up on the injury report.

[BigAl2526]

My guess is they will play him for a drive or two in one preseason game.

[without a drought]

I don't think he should sit all preseason, he should at least get up and move around some.

[Dr.Sack]

I’m cool w

[Orlando Tim]

I think sitting the whole preseason would be a bad decision. He might only need 4 series all preseason to get up to speed but we need to have a better game one than last year 

[Beerball]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:50 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

So I disagree that it is "nothing to do with football development" but the idea that Josh needs to play to get used to a new playcaller or a tweaked scheme I agree is an exagerration of the use of pre-season. 

 

Why is it that HS (that's American for high school) and collegiate teams can do it?

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Beerball said:

Why is it that HS (that's American for high school) and collegiate teams can do it?

 

Can do what?

[ddaryl]

You cannot go into game 1 against the LA Rams without the 1st unit in full getting a few series in

Completely against sitting Allen all preseason. I'm also against removing preseason games in general.

[Greg S]

6 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

You cannot go into game 1 against the LA Rams without the 1st unit in full getting a few series in

Completely against sitting Allen all preseason. I'm also against removing preseason games in general.

 

Especially with a new OC and some new plays to the offense. Yesterday at TC one of papers reported that Allen was frustrated as the offense looked out of sync. On the plus side they said the defense looked really good. I think the starters on offense will play more than usual in the preseason needing the reps with Dorsey's offense.

[Jerry Jabber]

In the season opener against Pittsburgh last year, the offense looked rusty and still in preseason mode. IMO, Josh should play in the preseason.

[Beerball]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Can do what?

Do

without

a

preseason

[FilthyBeast]

I'd be fine with it but I think with a new offense under Dorsey and what happened last year out of the gate against the Steelers it probably doesn't make sense at this point especially when guys like Brady are still out there slinging it in meaningless preseason games after all these years.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Beerball said:

Do

without

a

preseason

 

Well I think the NFL could for the purposes of "scheme" or "knocking rust off starters". The football argument for keeping a pre-season in the NFL is entirely about evaluation of and decisions regarding the bottom half of the roster which is not an issue on college because the same roster limits and regulations do not apply. 

[eball]

I'd like to give Josh and Dorsey at least one half's worth of real football working together before we hit the regular season.

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

I'm OK with Josh sitting the entire preseason. I'd leave it up to him if he wants to sit or play a few series

[Beerball]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well I think the NFL could for the purposes of "scheme" or "knocking rust off starters". The football argument for keeping a pre-season in the NFL is entirely about evaluation of and decisions regarding the bottom half of the roster which is not an issue on college because the same roster limits and regulations do not apply. 

Scheme and knocking rust off aren’t important to college kids? One loss by most teams ruins any chance at the playoffs yet they’re able to handle things just fine. Freshmen need less evaluation than pros with miles of film?  There are 90 players at SJF. Roster size is not an issue.

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Beerball said:

Scheme and knocking rust off aren’t important to college kids? One loss by most teams ruins any chance at the playoffs yet they’re able to handle things just fine. Freshmen need less evaluation than pros with miles of film?  There are 90 players at SJF. Roster size is not an issue.

 

I think you should read what I wrote. I am saying scheme and knocking rust off are NOT good reasons to have pre-season. There is nothing to be gained in that regard by pro teams. Nobody really shows anything scheme wise in any event, and while knocking rust off is nice that can be achieved through practice. 

 

However, I disagree on roster evaluation. It isn't that freshman need less evaluation it is that college teams can keep 125 players on their roster. You are not having to make decisions on the bottom half of your roster in the same way and while college teams don't maybe have control of the kids in the way they used to with the transfer portal etc the fact is of the 90 at Fisher the Bills have to expose almost half to the market in a month's time. The value of pre-season in the NFL is to give teams the opportunity to evaluate the bottom half of their rosters. It is a fact that pretty much every year in the NFL there are UDFAs who make rosters based on pre-season performances. Want proof? In 2020 without a pre-season 30.8 fewer UDFAs made NFL rosters when compared with the 10 year average. That is the value of pre-season in the NFL.

[machine gun kelly]

Good points GB.  I would add I see value in competitive practices with opposite conference teams.  They are more controlled when both coaching staffs are aligned.  Prior to the snafu on McKissic, I would’ve thought McD and Rivera could work something out as they don’t play the NFCE this year.

 

It has to be nice to have both coaching staffs monitoring the players, keeping them civil and working on the various tasks over a couple of days.

[Beerball]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think you should read what I wrote. I am saying scheme and knocking rust off are NOT good reasons to have pre-season. There is nothing to be gained in that regard by pro teams. Nobody really shows anything scheme wise in any event, and while knocking rust off is nice that can be achieved through practice. 

 

However, I disagree on roster evaluation. It isn't that freshman need less evaluation it is that college teams can keep 125 players on their roster. You are not having to make decisions on the bottom half of your roster in the same way and while college teams don't maybe have control of the kids in the way they used to with the transfer portal etc the fact is of the 90 at Fisher the Bills have to expose almost half to the market in a month's time. The value of pre-season in the NFL is to give teams the opportunity to evaluate the bottom half of their rosters. It is a fact that pretty much every year in the NFL there are UDFAs who make rosters based on pre-season performances. Want proof? In 2020 without a pre-season 30.8 fewer UDFAs made NFL rosters when compared with the 10 year average. That is the value of pre-season in the NFL.

At what date will you release your "final" roster, or have you already?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beerball said:

At what date will you release your "final" roster, or have you already?

 

I don't have to make a final roster. You want Beane, Brandon. 

[Beerball]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't have to make a final roster. You want Beane, Brandon. 

common man, you do mock drafts. Why do you play Beane then and not now?

 

Point is (as you know, but are ignoring) a casual fan can do a 53 and be remarkably accurate. Why is that? Because only a handful of backup positions are up for grabs. Those casual fans don't have the luxury that Beane does. He gets to view practice and get honest to goodness real answers from the coaching staff, yet they'll get 45+ people correct. 

 

I know you're unable to do it, but for once shout uncle.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Beerball said:

common man, you do mock drafts. Why do you play Beane then and not now?

 

Point is (as you know, but are ignoring) a casual fan can do a 53 and be remarkably accurate. Why is that? Because only a handful of backup positions are up for grabs. Those casual fans don't have the luxury that Beane does. He gets to view practice and get honest to goodness real answers from the coaching staff, yet they'll get 45+ people correct. 

 

I know you're unable to do it, but for once shout uncle.

 

I agree most fans can get 45 or so right with a roster projection. That doesn't change my view at all on the merits of pre-season games for the bottom half of the roster. The evidence is there and it is clear. Players at the bottom end of the roster, particularly UDFAs win jobs based on pre-season games. When you take them away the average fell by practically 1 UDFA per team. Now maybe you take the view that doesn't matter. I don't. I take the view that they are an important opportunity for guys who might be unheralded to make football teams. There are more UDFAs in the HoF than 1st round picks. Personally I'd be completely fine with the NFL actually restricting established vet starters with X number of games under their belt from playing in pre-season. I agree it serves no purpose for them. It will never happen because that isn't gonna help you sell tickets for those games. I'd reduce the number from 3 games to 2, but I'd retain some element of pre-season to give those under the radar guys a chance to make rosters. It is an important part of the evaluation process. 

 

As for shouting uncle (I had to look that up, it must be an American thing) I am perfectly happy to accept when I'm wrong, I've done it multiple times on this board. On this, I am afraid I do not think I am wrong. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Kirby Jackson]

In lieu of the Poyer injury (and Hyde getting dinged), does anyone want to change their stance on “the importance of preseason reps?” 

[Greg S]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In lieu of the Poyer injury (and Hyde getting dinged), does anyone want to change their stance on “the importance of preseason reps?” 

 

New OC some added wrinkles to the offense. I get nobody wants injuries in TC and preseason but they happen. I don't want the offense looking out of sync either on opening night. I wouldn't play them to much just a couple of series but they need the reps with a new OC to get ready for week 1. 

[corta765]

I have said for each Bills preseason home game Buffalo goes 3 wide with Allen ten yards back under max protection first play of the game. Upon snap the 3 WRs all run verts as fast as they can, Allen throws it as far as possible and walks off for the game. Everyone gets to see Josh throw something fun, he is healthy, and that is it

[C.Biscuit97]

Scared money don’t make money. Play him a couple games. Does anyone remember how awful that Pittsburgh game was?

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In lieu of the Poyer injury (and Hyde getting dinged), does anyone want to change their stance on “the importance of preseason reps?” 

 

Absolutely no.  This is a new defense line with other players changed as well.  This is new OC with lots of changes to Offense pieces.

 

The coaching staff can substitute some backups in more often but all starting players need reps.  We have seen games where Bills are flat going into first live game and the Bills schedule is front loaded so Bills cannot afford that this year.

[ColoradoBills]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:29 AM, eball said:

I'd like to give Josh and Dorsey at least one half's worth of real football working together before we hit the regular season.

 

 

That's a good point.  Josh has also said that just hearing a different voice in the helmet is strange.  A few drives in preseason is ok with me.

[boater]

Do you mean preseason games? Or, also no practices?

 

I'm would like to see 17 at practices, but missing the preseason games.

 

At practice, because I working on timing with the receivers is important, and also the new rookie OC needs practice play calling with his QB1.

 

Not at preseason games, because injury potential.

[Greg S]

3 minutes ago, boater said:

Do you mean preseason games? Or, also no practices?

 

I'm would like to see 17 at practices, but missing the preseason games.

 

At practice, because I working on timing with the receivers is important, and also the new rookie OC needs practice play calling with his QB1.

 

Not at preseason games, because injury potential.

 

They need to get some reps against a real opponent. Injuries can happen at anytime so might as well put them in for the preseason. There is no substitute for game action. Practicing against your own defense when they won't hit you will not help against the Rams..

[SBbeliever]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:58 PM, The Wiz said:

I only say no because he's gonna want to play even if it's pre-season.

 

It will likely be very little, maybe 15-20 snaps in total, but he's going to want them.

I agree.  Josh is too competitive to just sit for 3 weeks!