Isiah McKenzie as a Returner

[Warcodered]

Saw this highlight that got posted of McKenzie that had several of his returns even some that got called back.

 

How many mistakes did he really make as a returner in a year where we seemed to play in a lot of crappy weather?

I think he's getting more of a shot at the slot this year, but he really does have upside as a returner.

[Mcdermott]

3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Saw this highlight that got posted of McKenzie that had several of his returns even some that got called back.

 

How many mistakes did he really make as a returner in a year where we seemed to play in a lot of crappy weather?

I think he's getting more of a shot at the slot this year, but he really does have upside as a returner.

I know it was a long time ago but Denver cut McKenzie almost entirely because of his fumbles during return. Some guys just can’t handle it.

[StHustle]

2 minutes ago, Mcdermott said:

I know it was a long time ago but Denver cut McKenzie almost entirely because of his fumbles during return. Some guys just can’t handle it.

 

His one fumble in the past few years was a flukey non contact fumble..him have some fumbling issue is TOTALLY overblown.

 

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Saw this highlight that got posted of McKenzie that had several of his returns even some that got called back.

 

How many mistakes did he really make as a returner in a year where we seemed to play in a lot of crappy weather?

I think he's getting more of a shot at the slot this year, but he really does have upside as a returner.

 

I don’t think he gets a real shot unless something changes.  He has some talent as a punt returner, but he was frankly bad at Kickoffs with multiple fumbles including a time he was not even hit.  A few bursts that were huge, but the mistakes were way more costly.

 

He also let to many punts and even kick offs hit the ground without getting to them.

 

I did not want to see him returning kicks last year and he did little to make me say - we gotta put this guy back there again.

 

Rather see a battle with a draft pick and Stevenson and if the Rookie wins - Stevenson maybe looking at a PS position because Stevenson was not impressive either - especially as a punt returner.

 

 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t think he gets a real shot unless something changes.  He has some talent as a punt returner, but he was frankly bad at Kickoffs with multiple fumbles including a time he was not even hit.  A few bursts that were huge, but the mistakes were way more costly.

 

He also let to many punts and even kick offs hit the ground without getting to them.

 

I did not want to see him returning kicks last year and he did little to make me say - we gotta put this guy back there again.

 

Rather see a battle with a draft pick and Stevenson and if the Rookie wins - Stevenson maybe looking at a PS position because Stevenson was not impressive either - especially as a punt returner.

 

 

By multiple fumbles do you mean 2?

[Rochesterfan]

11 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

By multiple fumbles do you mean 2?

Yes 2 on 24 kick returns - so a rate of over 8% of kick off returns he fumbled last year.

 

You combine that with his 6 fumbles as a rookie and 4 more the next year - almost all on special teams and perhaps there is an issue.

 

It was an issue that cost him his job in Denver and got him benched with miscues last year.  
 

I would much prefer to let him focus on being a WR and find someone else that can handle the special teams aspect with fewer issues.

 

 

[LeGOATski]

28 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

His one fumble in the past few years was a flukey non contact fumble..him have some fumbling issue is TOTALLY overblown.

 

The coaching staff didn't think so.

[Peace Frog]

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Yes 2 on 24 kick returns - so a rate of over 8% of kick off returns he fumbled last year.

 

You combine that with his 6 fumbles as a rookie and 4 more the next year - almost all on special teams and perhaps there is an issue.

 

It was an issue that cost him his job in Denver and got him benched with miscues last year.  
 

I would much prefer to let him focus on being a WR and find someone else that can handle the special teams aspect with fewer issues.

 

 

Or maybe, they can use him on kick returns by having someone lateral the ball to him.  Kind of like a homerun throwback, if you will.

 

Still too soon?

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Yes 2 on 24 kick returns - so a rate of over 8% of kick off returns he fumbled last year.

 

You combine that with his 6 fumbles as a rookie and 4 more the next year - almost all on special teams and perhaps there is an issue.

 

It was an issue that cost him his job in Denver and got him benched with miscues last year.  
 

I would much prefer to let him focus on being a WR and find someone else that can handle the special teams aspect with fewer issues.

 

 

You know who had 3 fumbles this year, and hell had 3 the year before? Andre Roberts.

 

All pro both those years and Pro Bowl as well in 2020.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Warcodered

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

His one fumble in the past few years was a flukey non contact fumble..him have some fumbling issue is TOTALLY overblown.

 

 

When you fumble 6 times in a regular season on only like 275 yards of return production........and a bunch more in the preseason....as McKenzie did in 2017.........you are always going to have a short leash.

 

That figure is almost inconceivable.......one of the most epic fumbling seasons in NFL history.

 

For perspective........last year only 1 of the top 100 KOR'ers even fumbled more than once(Byron Pringle with 2).........and in TOTAL there were only 20 fumbled kickoff returns all season.

 

And McKenzie has never had less than 2 fumbles in a regular season so he must have fumbled after one of his scant few WR catches last year too.

 

And he also had a fumble on a punt return in the preseason against Chicago last year which naturally caused pause given his history.

 

He is an ADVENTURE catching kicks.........the ball hits his body like a brick.........go back and watch the punt return TD he had against the Dolphins in week 17 that opened the door for him to get some return work against the Bills better judgement.......he BOBBLED that catch too.

 

For 24 yards per KOR and 7.7 per PR the juice isn't worth the risk of turning the ball over and that's why McD benched him.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

27 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t think he gets a real shot unless something changes.  He has some talent as a punt returner, but he was frankly bad at Kickoffs with multiple fumbles including a time he was not even hit.  A few bursts that were huge, but the mistakes were way more costly.

 

He also let to many punts and even kick offs hit the ground without getting to them.

 

I did not want to see him returning kicks last year and he did little to make me say - we gotta put this guy back there again.

 

Rather see a battle with a draft pick and Stevenson and if the Rookie wins - Stevenson maybe looking at a PS position because Stevenson was not impressive either - especially as a punt returner.

 

 

Letting punts hit was pretty much Hyde's modus operandi. It seems to me Mckenzie is not changing his ball security technique or something else the coaches are concerned about and that's leading to the quick pull.

[Rochesterfan]

20 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

You know who had 3 fumbles this year, and hell had 3 the year before? Andre Roberts.

 

All pro both those years and Pro Bowl as well in 2020.

 

Yes he had 3 fumbles on nearly 140 returns - a fumble rate of about 2%.

 

On that number of returns at his rate - McKenzie would of had 11 fumbles.  The difference is the Bills pulled him and benched him early - when the pattern re-emerged.

 

As an aside - with limited returns - a 2-3 % fumble loss rate is about normal for returns (1-3 per year) and an 8% rate on kick-offs means you need to replace that guy.

 

His Punt return average was not horrible - although I believe he had 2 balls on punt returns that he fumbled along the sidelines out of bounds during the season and a third in the playoffs that slide out of bounds.  Those were not lost.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin]

I was at the Colts game and that fumble right before half really hurt you could feel it tangibly in the stadium.  We needed that drive to do something before half and then...that.  Really sucked. Lots of things went wrong that game but that one was crucial

[Rochesterfan]

11 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Letting punts hit was pretty much Hyde's modus operandi. It seems to me Mckenzie is not changing his ball security technique or something else the coaches are concerned about and that's leading to the quick pull.

 

I think the Bills staff knew it was an issue in Denver.  It was an issue here after the Bills picked him up in year 1 (after cutting Ray Ray McCloud because of his difficulties handling kicks).  
 

Also reading training camp notes - it was an issue in training camp with dropped kicks and mis judgement of the ball.

 

Then there were fumbles lost and additional balls on the ground that slide out of bounds - so the Bills pulled the plug.  
 

 

[Warcodered]

47 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Yes 2 on 24 kick returns - so a rate of over 8% of kick off returns he fumbled last year.

 

You combine that with his 6 fumbles as a rookie and 4 more the next year - almost all on special teams and perhaps there is an issue.

 

It was an issue that cost him his job in Denver and got him benched with miscues last year.  
 

I would much prefer to let him focus on being a WR and find someone else that can handle the special teams aspect with fewer issues.

 

 

Actually it's 2 on 43 returns or 1 on 24 returns, which would be more like 4%

[Big Turk]

I mean I prefer the edge of your seat returns by Stevenson where he runs into his own blockers every time and ends up in crazy positions when he gets tackled and you hold your breath hoping he doesn't fumble, then afterward on replay wonder how the hell he held onto the ball.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[uninja]

He’s just so much more valuable as a slot/speed/jet sweep guy imo. 
 

Yeah he busts out some big returns but I don’t like boom/bust players in that role. In that respect the 2 years of Andre Roberts we had were perfect. He practically always caught the ball and always turned it into 10 yards and sometimes a bit more. 
 

I’d much (MUCH) rather have a boring dependable returner that occasionally busts a long one than an exciting one where I’m clenching my ####### tight the moment the ball flies into the air. I don’t want another Leodis McKelvin back there, ever. 

[Blank Stare]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

I was surprised when I saw  him back there as a returner to start the game against NE in the wild card… only to fumble it yet again(thankfully the ball went OOB).

Interesting you bring this fumble up. I was watching a replay of that game a while back (and even when I saw it live) where I remember thinking we really dodged a bullet there. I still think we would’ve won that game, but could’ve really taken the wind out of our sails early and either kept them in it or kept it closer for longer. Hard to really gripe about it knowing how dominant the team was that day, but really fortunate that went out of bounds. None of us want to relive any McKelvin-like returning moments in a big game against the cheats. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by TheProcess

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Maybe they draft a WR who has return experience.  But even if they do, will they want to put a rookie back there doing it?

 

Once they signed Crowder, IMO not so sure McKenzie's role chances much from what he did last season.

 

So by default McKenzie may be main return guy.  Only other choice likely would be Stevenson.  Not sure he even makes the roster though if they do draft a rookie. WR high.

[Blank Stare]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yep… he should never return punts/kicks  on this team again… but I believe he was out there for kick offs the following week against KC.

Yeah, you can count me in the “let him focus on being a WR” camp. I’m hoping that Stephenson makes a leap there this off-season and/or they try to address it in the draft. At least make it a competition. Best guy gets the job. 

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

I would prefer if he goes all-in on becoming a dependable slot receiver instead of a kick/punt returner. He has had a bunch of miscues as a returner and it's just in his head at this point.

 

I think we draft at least one receiver and they can battle Stevenson for the job.

[Paul Costa]

The only game I went to this year was the Miami home game. Lil dirty tried to field a punt at the goal line that definitely would have been a touchback. He fumbled it and Kumarow alertly punched it out of the end zone. This pic is Diggs ripping McKenzie after the play on the sidelines. I blew it up which doesn’t help for this discussion. McKenzie had a few of these we forgot because we got the ball. 

[BADOLBILZ]

53 minutes ago, Paul Costa said:

The only game I went to this year was the Miami home game. Lil dirty tried to field a punt at the goal line that definitely would have been a touchback. He fumbled it and Kumarow alertly punched it out of the end zone. This pic is Diggs ripping McKenzie after the play on the sidelines. I blew it up which doesn’t help for this discussion. McKenzie had a few of these we forgot because we got the ball. 

 

 

Yep.......5 years into his career he still makes inexplicable mental errors like that.     The fumbled KOR that got him benched was one of the crazier bonehead plays you will ever see in an an NFL football game.   

 

[John from Riverside]

Team would be better off using one of these draft picks on a guy that they can count on as a returner I am looking for Vilas Jones in the draft

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Actually it's 2 on 43 returns or 1 on 24 returns, which would be more like 4%

 

And you have to take into account how he came to be a  Buffalo Bill. Claimed off of Waivers by the Broncos who let him go after he fumbled SIX returns in his rookie season. He fumbled two more times between Denver and Buffalo the following season. He wasn't used on returns again until last season. So those fumbles he had weren't an anomaly.

 

Hopefully we draft someone who can provide more and be safer with the ball than either Stevenson or McKenzie.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[GunnerBill]

I think returner remains an unfilled position. Of the current roster, I'd prefer McKenzie do it than the other options despite the fumbles. Stevenson sucks. But I am expeting another late round receiver with some return ability in the draft. 

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

His one fumble in the past few years was a flukey non contact fumble..him have some fumbling issue is TOTALLY overblown.

 

 

 

Four fumbles in his 3.5 years in Buffalo.

 

All on returns.

 

Not overblown.

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, Warcodered said:

You know who had 3 fumbles this year, and hell had 3 the year before? Andre Roberts.

 

All pro both those years and Pro Bowl as well in 2020.

 

 

Yeah, Roberts had 1 in 2019 in Buffalo and 3 in 2020 in Buffalo. And then he was let go. Funny how that happens.

 

In 2019 Roberts had 94 returns and one fumble.

 

In 2020 Roberts had 89 returns and three fumbles and they let him go.

 

In his four years here, McKenzie has had 76 returns and four fumbles. That's worse than Roberts by a significant margin. And McKenzie made some other mental mistakes returning here. He's just not very instinctive at it, whereas Roberts made very few of those mental mistakes.

 

 

[StHustle]

25 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Four fumbles in his 3.5 years in Buffalo.

 

All on returns.

 

Not overblown.

True or false? The last time he got hit and dropped the ball or muffed a return was over 3 seasons ago?

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, StHustle said:

True or false? The last time he got hit and dropped the ball or muffed a return was over 3 seasons ago?

 

False.

 

He dropped or muffed several kicks last year after being hit - we just did not lose it.  
 

He had at least 2 returns where he got hit and the ball ended up bouncing out of bounds including 1 in the playoffs.

 

He also muffed a kick in the field of play that luckily was ruled a muff and the ball was forced out of the end zone by I believe Kumerow.  That resulted in a touchback - but could easily have been a turnover and those do not end up in his official counts.

 

He easily put the ball on the ground at least 6 times on returns last season and was a limited returner for only the first part of the season.

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

If you want WR Lil Dirty, then you don’t want KR Lil Dirty anyway…

[Matt_In_NH]

12 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

His one fumble in the past few years was a flukey non contact fumble..him have some fumbling issue is TOTALLY overblown.

 

 

I don't disagree based on in game situations.  The "flukey" fumble is hard to excuse though but at the same time people will fumble, it is part of the game.  The thing we dont know is what other information the coaches are working with, fumbles in practice for instance.   The fact he got benched after that makes me think there was more to it than that one play.

[Gugny]

He was one of the best returners in the NFL before he was inexplicably benched by McDermott.  

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think returner remains an unfilled position. Of the current roster, I'd prefer McKenzie do it than the other options despite the fumbles. Stevenson sucks. But I am expeting another late round receiver with some return ability in the draft. 

Didn't Crowder return kicks? 

[frostbitmic]

I root for punts and kickoffs to sail out of bounds or out of the end zone, it's safer that way.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

If you want WR Lil Dirty, then you don’t want KR Lil Dirty anyway…

 

 

Yup. Ten career fumbles. Zero on runs. Zero on receptions. All ten on returns.

 

 

7 hours ago, StHustle said:

True or false? The last time he got hit and dropped the ball or muffed a return was over 3 seasons ago?

 

 

False.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McKeIs00.htm

 

Did you really forget this one? I found it impossible to forget.

 

https://www.colts.com/video/highlight-t-j-carrie-recovers-isaiah-mckenzie-s-fumble

 

The other was in the Jets game on 1/10/22.

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Didn't Crowder return kicks? 

 

Think he has done it at some points. 

[PrimeTime101]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Think he has done it at some points. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2576716/jamison-crowder

 

2015, 2016, 2017 he returned punts not kickoffs 

[Warcodered]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, Roberts had 1 in 2019 in Buffalo and 3 in 2020 in Buffalo. And then he was let go. Funny how that happens.

 

In 2019 Roberts had 94 returns and one fumble.

 

In 2020 Roberts had 89 returns and three fumbles and they let him go.

 

In his four years here, McKenzie has had 76 returns and four fumbles. That's worse than Roberts by a significant margin. And McKenzie made some other mental mistakes returning here. He's just not very instinctive at it, whereas Roberts made very few of those mental mistakes.

 

 

You'd think that would have prevented us from signing him in the first place then since he had 3 the year before he came here with the Jets, and 4 the year before that.

[YattaOkasan]

12 hours ago, TheProcess said:

Interesting you bring this fumble up. I was watching a replay of that game a while back (and even when I saw it live) where I remember thinking we really dodged a bullet there. I still think we would’ve won that game, but could’ve really taken the wind out of our sails early and either kept them in it or kept it closer for longer. Hard to really gripe about it knowing how dominant the team was that day, but really fortunate that went out of bounds. None of us want to relive any McKelvin-like returning moments in a big game against the cheats. 

I cant find this fumble.  Can someone please show me.  I dont have any punt returns for Mckenzie this past playoffs

 

yes pro football reference has only 2 fumbles to his name but he misfielded the ball in the miami game week 8 (inside the 20), misfielded the kickoff in the WFT game (inside the 20), and fumbled in the colts game that lead to 7 points (inside the 20).  the stats are not capturing all the critical mistakes he made.  For the record Stephenson is not the answer either.

 

Miami (@ 1:13:30)

 

WFT (@ 40:42)

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by YattaOkasan