Offensive Line

[klos63]

29 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I meant through the draft.  That 2nd Round Pick people were banging on the table for a RB would probably be much better used on IOL.  
 

I think this off-season is probably much like last… just re-signing our own guys. 

and draft BPA

[entropyrules]

After seeing the O line improvement over the last several games I am wondering where the Bills medical staff is keeping those seed pods and how they are slipping them under the O line beds before they go to sleep

[Doc]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I meant through the draft.  That 2nd Round Pick people were banging on the table for a RB would probably be much better used on IOL.  
 

I think this off-season is probably much like last… just re-signing our own guys. 

 

Gotcha.  Yeah, I don't think RB is a priority after spending 2-3rd rounders and with the resurgence of the OL.  Unless a stud falls.  I think CB will have to be the first pick.

[Old Coot]

The O line should get a game ball for this win.  They gave Josh time to work his magic and opened some holes for Motor, to say nothing of those pulling center plays.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

12 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

i was going to post something similar. It’s not just the interior play either— both tackles have been playing so much better also. 
 

I think you have scheme and talent and execution coming together at the same time. 
 

(Don’t think they had a single penalty on them either). 

 

Dawkins getting Covid a second time seemed to have cured him!  Playing great ever since.

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

Morse matching McKenzie stride for stride on the sweep to the right was a sight to behold.

 

From left to right, Dawkins appears to be finally recovered from COVID and back to the player we're used to seeing. Bates has been a revelation and shored up our weakest link on the line. The emergence of more pin-and-pull runs has brought out the best in Morse. Williams has been steady. And you have to think that every day that passes, those twin mountains of raw athleticism in Spencer Brown and Tommy Doyle are just going to get better and better. 

 

Draft an IOL on Day 2 to eventually replace Morse and/or Williams whenever that time comes and I'd say we're in pretty good shape. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1. Offensive line play is something that can typically be fixed during the course of a season. Sometimes it's new personnel (Bates), new blocking schemes, and/or new offensive strategy in general; typically it's a combination of all of the above. 

2. Coaches tend to overvalue mediocre/replacement level players.* Feliciano, Ford, Boettger: all poor performers this year. The value of continuity is often less than the value of improved individual performance. Daboll was kind of dragged into trying new personnel by injuries. Not surprisingly, the result was better play.

 

*As a kind of test, I've been informally tracking the performance of classic replacement-level QBs - guys signed off the street and forced into action due to injury/COVID, etc. We've seen a few this year (Josh Johnson, Garrett Gilbert) and of course many over the last decade or so (Thad Lewis anyone?). Typically there either is no clear drop-off in performance from the nominal starter, or not much of a drop-off. Small sample, but highly suggestive of my proposition: we overvalue mediocrity.

 

 

 

[FarrellsFinest]

It makes you wonder why this staff didnt give him a shot when the interrior oline was struggling so bad? Concerning to me. 

[HamptonBillsfan]

Who are these guys? This line is opening holes for Motor and Josh, giving the protection Josh needs to pick teams apart and imposing their will on good defenses. All credit must go to O-line coaches and the lineman who have taken responsibility for this offense being successful. 

[LyndonvilleBill]

3 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Who are these guys? This line is opening holes for Motor and Josh, giving the protection Josh needs to pick teams apart and imposing their will on good defenses. All credit must go to O-line coaches and the lineman who have taken responsibility for this offense being successful. 

Maybe Johnson has been reading this board and said "Crap, I better fix it or I'll get fired"!😁

[HamptonBillsfan]

5 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

Maybe Johnson has been reading this board and said "Crap, I better fix it or I'll get fired"!😁

Whatever he's doing, it's working. It's like we finally have defenses having to protect against runs by our backs and that's giving Josh time to find all these receiving options. The check downs are even wide open. 

[Doc]

They’ve made quite a few errors with respect to the offensive line: drafting Cody, trading Teller, cutting Spain, passing on Humphrey and waiting to start Bates.  Hopefully those things are in the past.

[SoCal Deek]

I mentioned this earlier. Something’s definitely changed with the O Line. This isn’t due to the RBs. Both the pass protection and run blocking have improved tremendously, and all of it without a single free agent signing or trickery. I’m guessing they’ve finally got these five guys in their five correct spots. It took most of the season but I’m glad they got it sorted out. After locking up Dawkins. and Willams (after what they thought were the two tackle spots) it’s an outright gift that Spencer Brown appears to be an outstanding RT for years to come on a rookie contract.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

16 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Having Tommy Doyle next to Spencer Brown and Darryl Williams in those extra OL sets doesn’t hurt either! But yes, Bates is awesome. I would argue that he is a better player than Feliciano and Boettger 100%.

 

Wish the coaches would have figured this out sooner

 

 

[Bangarang]

Is Ryan Bates a potential long term solution at LG?
 

I’d still like to see us draft someone in the first 3 rounds though if possible. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

17 hours ago, AlfaBill said:

OL needs a nickname. 
 

 

 

not yet, need more time of consistency

 

 

16 hours ago, Doc said:

Maybe they've been saving this for the playoffs?  4D chess, ya know?

 

Maybe but i doubt it. I just think at halftime of the Tampa game coach said we are going to be aggressive from now on and now we are showing our potential.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

22 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Is Ryan Bates a potential long term solution at LG?

No. I mean, I don't think so.

The dreaded PFF grades this year for our Guards:

Feliciano 59.7

Boettger 59.8

Ford 47.4

Bates 64

 

I didn't include Williams because it looks like the only score I have access to blends his snaps at T and G. But FYI he's at 67.5.

 

I use PFF because it's readily available, not because it's authoritative in any way. But this basically agrees with the eye test.

We found a guy playing at an adequate level (Bates) - kind of a B-/C+ type level of PFF's scale - who filled in for guys playing at a replacement (D) or sub-replacement (F) level. That makes you better right away. It doesn't mean it makes you set for the future.

 

EDIT: I guess I should say that you can't be above average everywhere and still under the cap. If Morse retires, Bates could move to C. I don't know what to say about his skills as a C, but if he can handle that move he'd be perfectly adequate. Dawkins got stronger/better as the season went on, Brown got much better as he got a little experience, and Williams looks better suited to play at RG than RT. So maybe, just maybe you've got 4 good performers coming back with Feliciano as a perfectly acceptable C/G backup. If you can sign/draft one plus performer that's a pretty good O line after all. And who knows, Doyle may be more than an offensive lineman reporting as eligible ... 

Edited January 16, 2022 by The Frankish Reich

[london_bills]

Great thread, I was wondering what the changes were here other than Bates being in the line up

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Gotcha.  Yeah, I don't think RB is a priority after spending 2-3rd rounders and with the resurgence of the OL.  Unless a stud falls.  I think CB will have to be the first pick.

I think the Bills still lack speed and size.  They need a back like Henry who can pound the DL to submission especially in the playoffs.   I hope they invest a mid round pick as Moss appears to be not the answer.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Watch the blocking at the bottom. Bates, Morse, Williams, and Brown. 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Doc]

If the Bills designed their offense like the Ravens do for Lamar, Josh would have as many yards as Lamar.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

If the Bills designed their offense like the Ravens do for Lamar, Josh would have as many yards as Lamar.

and possible same number of injuries

[In Summary]

If I had to give a game ball to a position group it would be the O line.  The run game likely (can't confirm) brought the NE D up a bit to help the passing game while keeping the Bills D rested.  Maybe someone on the board saw if we got big pass plays against their 3-4 base or if we were running against their dime??  

 

I am not ready to buy the "Pass first - pass always" narrative of Schopp and Jeremy White - two folks who almost get apoplectic when we try to run.  In the 90's the Dolphins passed their way into the record books and out of the championship game in part because they lacked balance - when the pass was shut down, so were they.

[Doc]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

and possible same number of injuries

 

Josh would get more injured, but less than Lamar has.

[maryland-bills-fan]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:30 AM, klos63 said:

and draft BPA

Well it is always a blend of BPA and need.   We do NOT have a gaping hole anywhere, but several positions have a bigger fall-off as we go to the 1st replacement player. 

 

So we are balancing what position needs some buttressing or has a player who might retire VERSUS the value of the draft pick and what might be available on the FA market.  I'm definately thinking the weight of the ceiling/need balance is a little towards need in the first 3 rounds.  There are a number of 2022 players who will be drafted in the top 20, that I would take in a heartbeat-  but they will not be there at the 30-32 pick.

 

QB we are fine and there are a number of veteran stop-gap QB's available.

WR  there is plenty of depth and savy veterans.

RB we are okay with Motor and can probably find a retread as an adequate backup. The only way for a "draft pick" is if some complicated thing works out with N.Harris and the QB-less Steelers.

CB SS/FS we are okay and have our stud CB coming back next year. We can take a flyer on a 4th or 4th+ development guy.

DE we are okay with young guys and remaining veterans.

DT Star should be let go and we have good starters with Oliver and Philips.   Zimmer and Ankou are depth but a veteran FA or 4/4+ draft pick might be taken

 

#1   Offensive center.    We have backups but they are starters at other positions.  Morse is a good player but could disappear with another concussion and might decide to retire.  We should draft a center, if Linderbaum falls to us in the first round.  We should shoot for high ceiling rather than high floor.  Another way to skin this cat is to take  a superior OT in the first round (not JAG starter) and shuffle people around if Morse retires/(is missing from injury), or let the new guy work his way into the o-line.  We could make this a real strength for sure rather than a questionable part of the team.

 

#2  Linebacker.    OK, I like Edmunds in the middle although many Bills posters complain that he doesn't make splash plays and is not Dick Butkus.  He is big and fast and has great length and hinders other teams with the passing game over the middle (like a good safety) and is big enough to hold up against the running game.  Having said all that, we keep him at LB along with Milano.<<both these guys are speedy and good pass defenders.  We do NOT have a good replacement in house>>>  From there the next guy is Klein, who is a downhill player but not as good against the pass and in space..  We lose a lot of things if he has to start in a 2 linebacker formation.  So we really do NEED another quality linebacker with good coverage skills and speed to handle superior TE & RB.   There are also several guys in the draft.  Demone Clark,   D.Llyod and N. Dean would be my top 3 picks here.  There is some posability to trade back from our high 1st round pick (30-32) and get a mid 2nd round pick and a mid third round pick and still ***** one of those 3.

On 1/16/2022 at 12:05 PM, Doc said:

 

Gotcha.  Yeah, I don't think RB is a priority after spending 2-3rd rounders and with the resurgence of the OL.  Unless a stud falls.  I think CB will have to be the first pick.

We have the top rated defense right now AND have Tre'Davious White coming back from injury next year. We should be fine there. A high ceiling guy in the 4th to 9th round is the thing to do.  We are thin at pass defending LB and offensive line. That is where the first two picks should go.

[maryland-bills-fan]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:02 PM, ganesh said:

I think the Bills still lack speed and size.  They need a back like Henry who can pound the DL to submission especially in the playoffs.   I hope they invest a mid round pick as Moss appears to be not the answer.

Our mid-round picks have not provided us a game changer.  the 2nd round is the place to get a

<<Dobbins   round 2  pick 55 >>>    

<<<Taylor  round 2  pick 41....>>>.

<<<<Henry (2016 2nd round pick 45>>>>  type.

 

Or cycle through FA and PS guys until you find a keeper.

Edited January 18, 2022 by maryland-bills-fan

[klos63]

2 hours ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

Well it is always a blend of BPA and need.   We do NOT have a gaping hole anywhere, but several positions have a bigger fall-off as we go to the 1st replacement player. 

 

So we are balancing what position needs some buttressing or has a player who might retire VERSUS the value of the draft pick and what might be available on the FA market.  I'm definately thinking the weight of the ceiling/need balance is a little towards need in the first 3 rounds.  There are a number of 2022 players who will be drafted in the top 20, that I would take in a heartbeat-  but they will not be there at the 30-32 pick.

 

QB we are fine and there are a number of veteran stop-gap QB's available.

WR  there is plenty of depth and savy veterans.

RB we are okay with Motor and can probably find a retread as an adequate backup. The only way for a "draft pick" is if some complicated thing works out with N.Harris and the QB-less Steelers.

CB SS/FS we are okay and have our stud CB coming back next year. We can take a flyer on a 4th or 4th+ development guy.

DE we are okay with young guys and remaining veterans.

DT Star should be let go and we have good starters with Oliver and Philips.   Zimmer and Ankou are depth but a veteran FA or 4/4+ draft pick might be taken

 

#1   Offensive center.    We have backups but they are starters at other positions.  Morse is a good player but could disappear with another concussion and might decide to retire.  We should draft a center, if Linderbaum falls to us in the first round.  We should shoot for high ceiling rather than high floor.  Another way to skin this cat is to take  a superior OT in the first round (not JAG starter) and shuffle people around if Morse retires/(is missing from injury), or let the new guy work his way into the o-line.  We could make this a real strength for sure rather than a questionable part of the team.

 

#2  Linebacker.    OK, I like Edmunds in the middle although many Bills posters complain that he doesn't make splash plays and is not Dick Butkus.  He is big and fast and has great length and hinders other teams with the passing game over the middle (like a good safety) and is big enough to hold up against the running game.  Having said all that, we keep him at LB along with Milano.<<both these guys are speedy and good pass defenders.  We do NOT have a good replacement in house>>>  From there the next guy is Klein, who is a downhill player but not as good against the pass and in space..  We lose a lot of things if he has to start in a 2 linebacker formation.  So we really do NEED another quality linebacker with good coverage skills and speed to handle superior TE & RB.   There are also several guys in the draft.  Demone Clark,   D.Llyod and N. Dean would be my top 3 picks here.  There is some posability to trade back from our high 1st round pick (30-32) and get a mid 2nd round pick and a mid third round pick and still ***** one of those 3.

We have the top rated defense right now AND have Tre'Davious White coming back from injury next year. We should be fine there. A high ceiling guy in the 4th to 9th round is the thing to do.  We are thin at pass defending LB and offensive line. That is where the first two picks should go.

Need to draft CB high. Always a need and no guarantee that Tre comes back 100% or when he comes back.

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Need to draft CB high. Always a need and no guarantee that Tre comes back 100% or when he comes back.

 

Yup.  Especially there is a strong chance Wallace is  gone.

[Brand J]

The average, full grown silverback gorilla stands about 5’5”, but weighs between 300-485 pounds, has an 8 foot reach, and is 4-9x stronger than the average human.
How do you think something so small, yet so powerful, would fare at offensive guard or defensive tackle in the NFL? 🦍

[The Frankish Reich]

10 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

The average, full grown silverback gorilla stands about 5’5”, but weighs between 300-485 pounds, has an 8 foot reach, and is 4-9x stronger than the average human.
How do you think something so small, yet so powerful, would fare at offensive guard or defensive tackle in the NFL? 🦍

To properly prepare to answer that question, I must first review the science:

 

 

 

[Mat68]

Every year I think Buffalo should take a day 3 olineman and db.  This year maybe 2 olineman.  

[Brand J]

9 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

To properly prepare to answer that question, I must first review the science:

 

 

 

I had the orangutan for the win!

[SCBills]

I like this team going BPA (within reason) RD’s 1-4, and then hitting OL & DB every year RD’s 5-7.  
 

However, if we’re going to have a DB and OL poached off the Practice Squad, we may have to rethink that strategy.  
 

Can’t be wasting picks with the big contracts we have on the books now. 

[The Jokeman]

17 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Every year I think Buffalo should take a day 3 olineman and db.  This year maybe 2 olineman.  

With 8 picks I'm expecting in no particular order CB, WR, RB, OG, TE, P, LB, CB. 

[AuntieEm]

11 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

The average, full grown silverback gorilla stands about 5’5”, but weighs between 300-485 pounds, has an 8 foot reach, and is 4-9x stronger than the average human.
How do you think something so small, yet so powerful, would fare at offensive guard or defensive tackle in the NFL? 🦍

  Not very well, maybe the biggest bully on the field but without football smarts not gonna get the job done.  

[GreggTX]

The right side of our OL is a huge liability that other teams will exploit if we don't get serious about upgrading there. I have little confidence in either Brown or Bates.

[Simon Says]

11 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

The average, full grown silverback gorilla stands about 5’5”, but weighs between 300-485 pounds, has an 8 foot reach, and is 4-9x stronger than the average human.
How do you think something so small, yet so powerful, would fare at offensive guard or defensive tackle in the NFL? 🦍

They lack discipline and prefer to freelance 

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

The right side of our OL is a huge liability that other teams will exploit if we don't get serious about upgrading there. I have little confidence in either Brown or Bates.

I wouldn’t say it’s a huge liability.. it’s a huge unknown.  
 

Both are young players that we don’t know what they are yet.  
 

Brown because he didn’t play for a year and then was thrust into a starter role as a rookie.   Bates, because we’ve been enamored with him being the ultimate utility backup.  
 

I would have zero issue with us drafting OL high, but I don’t know that it’s fair to already label those two as a liability. 

[DCbillsfan]

39 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Can’t be wasting picks with the big contracts we have on the books now. 

I believe the Bills have 8 draft picks and I could see at least 6 drafted players make the 53 roster.  They have 4 roster openings (CB, WR, LB, and OT) where a player drafted at the position would have a clear path.  A fifth roster spot could be at OG because Boettger is going to start the season on PUP imo.  TE and LB are possible draft upgrades.  So there's probably another roster spot.  Also White could start season on PUP as well.  I agree with you on wasting draft picks.  Beane probably hated losing those drafted guys.

[Rigotz]

24 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

The right side of our OL is a huge liability that other teams will exploit if we don't get serious about upgrading there. I have little confidence in either Brown or Bates.

 

So you're OUT on on Brown, the guy we drafted in the 3rd round last year... who started 10 games, and is known to be a developmental prospect....

 

And you're also OUT on Ryan Bates, who we've seen play a total of 4 games and tangibly made the entire O-line better when he was in, and several other teams tried to sign...

 

Dude. You need to be a little more optimistic in life.