What prompted the change to our offense, and other questions?

[Virgil]

Like many of you, I am both frustrated and perplexed by our offensive performance this season.  While I understand the need to evolve schemes before the league catches up to you, I can't quite figure out when that happened to us.  We were able to move the ball just fine at the end of last season, were good against the Colts, played a good defense in windy conditions against the Ravens, and then puttered against the Chiefs.  In the Chiefs game, I don't know that they "figured us out" so much as the matchup wasn't in our favor and we just had the wrong plan.  More so, I think about the Ravens offense.  They dominate the regular season and flop in the playoffs.  I get needing to make a change for the playoffs and practicing that in parts of the season, but the Ravens usually stick with what works during the regular season for the past few years. 

 

So with that, why did we effectively change our scheme that was apparently working?  Here are my questions?

 

1 - With Gabe Davis leading us in Red Zone TDs last season, why is he no longer in those packages as much?  While I understand Sanders new role in the offense, red zone packages are typically different

 

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem?  Additionally, where is the extra eligible blocking receiver?  Teams are rarely stacking the box against us, which means it's 5 vs 4 on the line.  If we bring in an additional OL as an eligible receiver, then it's 6 vs 4.  That should be more than enough to get decent yards on each run play.  However, what percentage of our run plays come from the shotgun versus Josh under center.  Are we too obvious when we call a rushing play?  Is it possible that both Motor and Moss suck, or is the offensive line that bad?  I mean, these are NFL talented players who can't win a 5 vs 4 matchup?  I argue that alone seems illogical.  With that, for me, I believe it is our lack of creative scheme.  I think about our rushing attack before and after Greg Roman.  The man had a system out of the shotgun that couldn't be touched and we torched the league in rushing.  Why is that not something we can somewhat emulate?

 

3 - Even with other teams playing two safeties deep, the deep crossing routes shouldn't be effected by this as much.  If the safety does shade over, then the seam down the middle should be free.  Josh rolling out and hitting someone deep on the sideline was a majority of our highlights last season, but I can't think of more than a few times we've hit that play or even tried.

 

4 - Is it me, or did we move the pocket with Josh more last season? 

 

5 - I understand that teams are more consistently double covering Diggs, but that typically doesn't take affect until he's more than 10 yards down field?  What happened to the quick stutter-step routes that got him going early in games that brought the safeties up?  Our best games are when we fed Diggs and Beasley early, forcing the defense to react, and then killed them deep with throws to Davis and whoever else. 

 

6 - While Sanders has made some great plays for us, it feels to be at the expense of the other receivers.  Is this intentional or is really just the only person getting open?

 

7 - Where the hell is the McKenzie sweep plays?  We would at least keep the defense on their guard with those plays and creep towards the LOS, but nothing this year.

 

8 - When Josh went off on the sidelines against the Dolphins, who was he yelling at?  It looked like he was targeting his offensive line.  Has that relationship soured a bit?  I'm not saying they are tanking in response, but the tension is real.  Josh has not looked relaxed all season.

 

That's all I got.  I'm as frustrated as Josh is and I equally see the articles about him not taking the check-downs, but I also believe there is more to it.  I don' t have answers, just wanted to put the thoughts out there and see if anyone had similar thoughts or answers.

[BruceVilanch]

3 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Josh has not looked relaxed all season.

I think this is the root of all the issues, he looks visibly uncomfortable on like 75% of his drop backs. I don't know how it gets fixed, he's shown the ability to make improvements in his game, let's hope he can adapt. BTW, I still think he's playing at a high level, I just think the offense overall is suffering, I am optimistic they will start clicking, jets are a good "get right game"

[HappyDays]

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

[Virgil]

Just now, BruceVilanch said:

I think this is the root of all the issues, he looks visibly uncomfortable on like 75% of his drop backs. I don't know how it gets fixed, he's shown the ability to make improvements in his game, let's hope he can adapt. BTW, I still think he's playing at a high level, I just think the offense overall is suffering, I am optimistic they will start clicking, jets are a good "get right game"

.

I wonder if the frustration is coming from the playcalling and adjusting to a different scheme.  He knows what they can do, and he's running plays that aren't working as well

[CSBill]

1 - Agree

2 - Agree

3 - Agree

4 - Agree

5 - Agree

6 - Agree

7 - Agree

8 - Agree

[Virgil]

Just now, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

 

That's what I'm saying though.  When did they catch up to us?  I feel like we stopped running our scheme in anticipation of people shutting us down.  The Chiefs game was the only one where our normal play wasn't working, and I would say that was more the offensive line not protecting Josh. 

[Rc2catch]

While I love sanders and what he brings, I’ve felt since game one he’s become the focal point of our offense somehow. He seems to be the only guy they target deep on the majority of attempts. A lot of plays seem designed to get coverage on Beasley and Diggs to open sanders up. I do believe our main keys are of course the offensive line and the coveted McKenzie sweep. We rarely handed it to him, even rarer it seemed we threw it his way on those plays, but that extra second or so the defense had to take to make sure he didn’t get the ball might be the difference in the pass rush affecting the play. If McKenzie is too important as a returner to risk injury on those then somebody else needs to take over that role. Rather it’s Breida or sanders or whoever. I do agree with all Virgil’s points as well. 

[realtruelove]

It appears that they are intentionally throttling the offense and using the regular season to test a multitude of plays, so teams in the playoffs will not be prepared for what will be unleashed on them.  

[Maine-iac]

If you are going to throw 80 percent of the time you better have an Oline that can block and is smart enough to find their man on stunts.  While I'd rather just run the ball more I'm not above admitting we could probably still throw all the time and move the ball and score points if our starters were healthy (both the OL and Knox).  I still wish we had a more adaptable offense that could put in two TE's and run it in some games and then go 3 or 4 wide in others and throw it.  In both cases Josh is going to have to understand who's out there with him and not throw picks, not fumble, and end drives with (as he'd tell you himself) kicks.  As much as I like him sitting in the pocket and making thows if they are going to do shell coverage and spead out their defenses I'm also all for Josh running more.  Be smart and don't take a ton of hits but if it gives us an extra blocker and he can run for 5 or 6 all day go ahead and take it till they start changing up coverages.

[CincyBillsFan]

18 minutes ago, Virgil said:

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem?  Additionally, where is the extra eligible blocking receiver?  Teams are rarely stacking the box against us, which means it's 5 vs 4 on the line.  If we bring in an additional OL as an eligible receiver, then it's 6 vs 4.  That should be more than enough to get decent yards on each run play.  However, what percentage of our run plays come from the shotgun versus Josh under center.  Are we too obvious when we call a rushing play?  Is it possible that both Motor and Moss suck, or is the offensive line that bad?  I mean, these are NFL talented players who can't win a 5 vs 4 matchup?  I argue that alone seems illogical.  With that, for me, I believe it is our lack of creative scheme.  I think about our rushing attack before and after Greg Roman.  The man had a system out of the shotgun that couldn't be touched and we torched the league in rushing.  Why is that not something we can somewhat emulate?

 

3 - Even with other teams playing two safeties deep, the deep crossing routes shouldn't be effected by this as much.  If the safety does shade over, then the seam down the middle should be free.  Josh rolling out and hitting someone deep on the sideline was a majority of our highlights last season, but I can't think of more than a few times we've hit that play or even tried.

 

7 - Where the hell is the McKenzie sweep plays?  We would at least keep the defense on their guard with those plays and creep towards the LOS, but nothing this year.

(2) On Sunday the issue was that our below average RB's combined with a worst in the NFL injury plagued O-line.  When healthy (Dawkins/Feliciano/Morse/Williams/Brown) we have an average O-line.  This is enough for Allen, Knox & the WR's to go off on teams.  We can't forget that prior to the Jaguars game the Bills were at or near the top in every offensive category that mattered.

 

(3) Before the Jaguars game Allen was hitting deep passes of every kind.  Even against Pitt he hit a couple (including the Sanders drop of a 35yard pass).  On Sunday there wasn't time to confidently sit in the pocket and hit a deep cross.

 

(7) A friend in Buffalo said that callers were claiming the Bills don't want to get McKenzie banged up as he is our only real option for kick & punt returns.  I don't know if there's any truth to this but it seems like the only logical explanation for the lack of McK gimmick plays.

 

Ultimately, our offensive problems come from the fact that we do not have anything approaching a dynamic RB and our O-line is at best average when fully healthy. When banged up like on Sunday the O-line becomes a huge liability.  Don't forget that the O-line was called for THREE PF's.  Those are hard to recover from in a drive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Virgil]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

(3) Before the Jaguars game Allen was hitting deep passes of every kind.  Even against Pitt he hit a couple (including the Sanders drop of a 35yard pass).  On Sunday there wasn't time to confidently sit in the pocket and hit a deep cross.

 

(7) A friend in Buffalo said that callers were claiming the Bills don't want to get McKenzie banged up as he is our only real option for kick & punt returns.  I don't know if there's any truth to this but it seems like the only logical explanation for the lack of McK gimmick plays.

 

3 - I agree on overall deep balls, even though we didn't try any against the Jags.  I'm moreso talking about the deep crossing routes where the boys would toe tap the sideline.  That play is gone

 

7 - If that's the case, then let someone else run that play.  Isn't that what we drafted Stevenson for?

[Big Turk]

Deep crossers can't be ran when you can't sustain blocks to allow them to develop.

 

Last year we stonewalled oncoming pass rushers for the most part, even against blitzes. This year, 4 man rushes are in the backfield constantly causing pressure...

[Augie]

37 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

 

People gave me crap when I said we NEED to be able to run the ball. “WHY?” they asked, when it looked so easy to throw, especially in meaningless preseason. 

 

We need at least two new starters on the OLine. I expect that to happen this offseason. Guys we have starting could be decent depth, but are not starting material. I also think our OL coach has at best a 50/50 chance of being back next year.

 

We have issues, but I think when we get our starters back we have a good chance to rebound. We were a top scoring team before last week, albeit against generally weak opponents.  There is ZERO doubt they will be fired up and having Knox back adds a dimension we were sorely missing last week. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Like many of you, I am both frustrated and perplexed by our offensive performance this season.  While I understand the need to evolve schemes before the league catches up to you, I can't quite figure out when that happened to us.  We were able to move the ball just fine at the end of last season, were good against the Colts, played a good defense in windy conditions against the Ravens, and then puttered against the Chiefs.  In the Chiefs game, I don't know that they "figured us out" so much as the matchup wasn't in our favor and we just had the wrong plan.  More so, I think about the Ravens offense.  They dominate the regular season and flop in the playoffs.  I get needing to make a change for the playoffs and practicing that in parts of the season, but the Ravens usually stick with what works during the regular season for the past few years. 

 

So with that, why did we effectively change our scheme that was apparently working?  Here are my questions?

 

1 - With Gabe Davis leading us in Red Zone TDs last season, why is he no longer in those packages as much?  While I understand Sanders new role in the offense, red zone packages are typically different

 

Can't answer this.  IMO we are giving Sanders a role he has not completely earned with his game performance.  He and Josh don't seem to be on the same page, for whatever reason.  He has caught less than 50% of his targets in 4 games, and Davis should be featured more.

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem? 

 

"Yes", but IMO it's more on the OL.  It may be a scheme problem, where we're asking OLmen to work in a scheme that doesn't suit them.  I'm not sure if it's coaching or play, but (for example) in a play from Erik Turner which I put up in a thread elsewhere, instead of getting a piece of the DT and ensuring the Dawkins could seal him off, Boettger moved immediately to the 2nd level for the linebacker.  Dawkins failed to seal off his man, and he got into the backfield to chase Motor down for a loss.  That said, on the other side of the line the OLmen were totally failing to open a hole (where I think the play was supposed to go)

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

However, what percentage of our run plays come from the shotgun versus Josh under center.  Are we too obvious when we call a rushing play?

 

That's an easy one to answer.  (click to embiggen).  According to this, we actually run an equal amount from shotgun vs. under center.

But in terms of play frequency, we're far more likely to pass than run from the shotgun.

 

I think the stats may be skewed by Allen's scrambles.

I also think we very likely have run play "tells" from under center.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I mean, these are NFL talented players who can't win a 5 vs 4 matchup? 

 

I'll be straight up I don't know enough about how defenses handle the possibility of a run from a pass-centric team, but recall when it's a "5 on 4 matchup" in the passing game, the defense may be using twists and stunts to overload one side of the line and to disguise who is coming.  So it's not really "5 on 4", it's more likely "3 on 4" or "2 on 3" where they're overloading half the OL while the other side goes "where'd he go, that dude I was gonna block?"

 

The Bills OL, for whatever reason, does not handle twists and stunts well at all.

 

It's kind of like the Ravens offense.  They were unstoppable in 2019, until the Bills and McDermott throttled them except for 1-2 long plays.  Then Tennessee used what they saw from us and added their own twists, and shut them down in the playoffs.  In 2020, they looked more vulnerable.  Now they've evolved somewhat.  Lamar can hit some of the passes he used to never attempt.  Defenses have to cover more of the field against them.

 

Similar thing for the Bills.  Teams have figured out what they don't have to defend with us.  They've figured out how decent front-7s can "steal our women and plunder our cattle" on OL with 4 defenders, by using stunts and twists.  That frees them to put 2 safeties over the top and flood the middle of the field with 5 DBs/LBs to take away the crossers that Allen feasted on last season. 

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

I argue that alone seems illogical.  With that, for me, I believe it is our lack of creative scheme.  I think about our rushing attack before and after Greg Roman.  The man had a system out of the shotgun that couldn't be touched and we torched the league in rushing.  Why is that not something we can somewhat emulate?

 

We don't have the quality of OL that we had then, or that the Ravens have - big strong bruisers who can eat DLmen for brekkers .  But yes, it's a valid question why we can't be more effective and creative in our run play design.  IMO Daboll tries to be creative in the wrong way, by designing these intricate schemes we don't practice enough to pull off without burbles.

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

3 - Even with other teams playing two safeties deep, the deep crossing routes shouldn't be effected by this as much.

 

It's not the 2 safeties, it's the other 5 defenders because they're creating pressure with 4

 

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

6 - While Sanders has made some great plays for us, it feels to be at the expense of the other receivers.  Is this intentional or is really just the only person getting open?

 

I haven't watched enough all-22 to answer this, but I'm not sure he's getting open enough to have earned the 84% of the snaps he's getting.  He's definitely getting snaps at the expense of Davis and McKenzie, and I think he may benefit from less workload.

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

7 - Where the hell is the McKenzie sweep plays?  We would at least keep the defense on their guard with those plays and creep towards the LOS, but nothing this year.

 

See above.  If McKenzie isn't on the field much, him being on the field is a "tell" for a reverse or a sweep.  He needs to be on the field as a WR enough for it not to be a "tell".  We're bringing him on and using him in motion, but it's actually been a decoy to get the D to pursue a sweep.

 

25 minutes ago, Virgil said:

8 - When Josh went off on the sidelines against the Dolphins, who was he yelling at?  It looked like he was targeting his offensive line.  Has that relationship soured a bit?  I'm not saying they are tanking in response, but the tension is real.  Josh has not looked relaxed all season.

 

I don't think the OL is "soured" with Josh, but he's justifiably frustrated with how they're playing at times.  If he wasn't willing to let them have it, that would be a problem.  In the Dolphins game, the coaches helped the OL adjust and they responded with strong play that gave Josh time in the 2nd half.

 

 

[Maine-iac]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

Like many of you, I am both frustrated and perplexed by our offensive performance this season.  While I understand the need to evolve schemes before the league catches up to you, I can't quite figure out when that happened to us.  We were able to move the ball just fine at the end of last season, were good against the Colts, played a good defense in windy conditions against the Ravens, and then puttered against the Chiefs.  In the Chiefs game, I don't know that they "figured us out" so much as the matchup wasn't in our favor and we just had the wrong plan.  More so, I think about the Ravens offense.  They dominate the regular season and flop in the playoffs.  I get needing to make a change for the playoffs and practicing that in parts of the season, but the Ravens usually stick with what works during the regular season for the past few years. 

 

 

 

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem?  Additionally, where is the extra eligible blocking receiver?  Teams are rarely stacking the box against us, which means it's 5 vs 4 on the line.  If we bring in an additional OL as an eligible receiver, then it's 6 vs 4.  That should be more than enough to get decent yards on each run play.  However, what percentage of our run plays come from the shotgun versus Josh under center.  Are we too obvious when we call a rushing play?  Is it possible that both Motor and Moss suck, or is the offensive line that bad?  I mean, these are NFL talented players who can't win a 5 vs 4 matchup?  I argue that alone seems illogical.  With that, for me, I believe it is our lack of creative scheme.  I think about our rushing attack before and after Greg Roman.  The man had a system out of the shotgun that couldn't be touched and we torched the league in rushing.  Why is that not something we can somewhat emulate?

 

 

Really good break down of the how and why we've ended up with a running attack that is where it is.  My take is from this video is that essentially we have mixed scheme personal that we mash into a zone block scheme because it minimizes missed blocks that blow up your running game.   Although clearly we are still missing blocks and our running game is still getting blown up.

 

 

[HappyDays]

38 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Deep crossers can't be ran when you can't sustain blocks to allow them to develop.

 

Last year we stonewalled oncoming pass rushers for the most part, even against blitzes. This year, 4 man rushes are in the backfield constantly causing pressure...

 

Yep the simple answer is probably the right one. Dawkins and Williams both played very well last year. This year they are both below average. Our interior was pretty meh last year but at least we had the outsides protected for the most part. Now we are weak everywhere on the offensive line. It's a very difficult problem to overcome.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Yep the simple answer is probably the right one. Dawkins and Williams both played very well last year. This year they are both below average. Our interior was pretty meh last year but at least we had the outsides protected for the most part. Now we are weak everywhere on the offensive line. It's a very difficult problem to overcome.

 

This is true.  I also think that opposing DCs have figured out how best to confuse and exploit our IOL.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

1 hour ago, realtruelove said:

It appears that they are intentionally throttling the offense and using the regular season to test a multitude of plays, so teams in the playoffs will not be prepared for what will be unleashed on them.  

Sadly, there are people who actually believe this.

[ProcessTruster]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

All they need is a healthy Spencer Brown and Dawson Knox.   They had the O Line fixed when Brown went in and then lost it when he went out.  The guy is a 6'8" high motor monster and a complete change up vs the softies on the rest of the line.   Knox is a good blocker on those counter plays and all that was lost when he went out.   Tommy Sweeney is strictly a backup 

[RunTheBall]

It’s very simple. If we can’t run the ball effectively (that doesn’t mean 50% of the time), we will not be going to the Super Bowl. We may not even win the division because right now the friggin Pats* (god I hate them) have a team that is playing the type of game that gives us trouble. 

 

I don’t care if it’s scheme, personnel, coaching or whatever. We’ve got a month and a half to figure it out to make a run. Next year there needs to be wholesale changes. I’m sick of this “finesse” BS line that get’s their asses kicked constantly. They are SOFT. We need some large angry men and a scheme that allows them to bury people in the run game. 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

 

Think Daboll adjusted too much by going shorter underneath game this week. Allen was late on lots of throws. When Allen watches the film he'll learn from this.  But understand Daboll reasoning to do so. Have them adjust to do that opens up different things. Teams are adjusting like you said. 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

That's what I'm saying though.  When did they catch up to us?  I feel like we stopped running our scheme in anticipation of people shutting us down.  The Chiefs game was the only one where our normal play wasn't working, and I would say that was more the offensive line not protecting Josh. 

 

I don't think the league has caught up to us except that it has seen interior pressure on the dline is a way to throw everything off. I believe both Daboll and to a lesser extend Josh have the bad oline in their heads. Daboll is trying to coach around it rather than just calling what we do well and Josh is agitated and especially when the line does hold up is trying to force something big because he knows how difficult it is to move down the field in chunks as we did last year when the line is so poor. 

 

The root cause of the issues is the offensive line. Blame coaches, blame players, blame the Quarterback.... but responsibility for that properly lies with the personnel department. They got unlucky with Dion, he is not at his best and likely won't be all year with the after effects of covid. I think Daryl Williams regression was not an obvious thing to call but the interior was not good last year and they did nothing about it. When you add all that to the league deciding to call offensive holding again the result is a mess. 

[davefan66]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

1 - With Gabe Davis leading us in Red Zone TDs last season, why is he no longer in those packages as much?  While I understand Sanders new role in the offense, red zone packages are typically different

 

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem? 

 

 

6 - While Sanders has made some great plays for us, it feels to be at the expense of the other receivers.  Is this intentional or is really just the only person getting open?

 

 

1. And 6. Go together.  If you add Sanders, someone sits.  It’s not going to be Diggs or Beas.  Davis loses.  Seems Josh has fallen in love with his bright, shiny, somewhat used toy.  Honestly, I don’t see what Sanders has brought to the team.  Taken balls from Diggs and Davis, doesn’t seem that he’s added much.  Should also be a good decoy to get the others more open, not just consume their catches.  His addition is a zero net gain.

 

2.  RB’s are not the problem.  Offensive line is for sure.  Can’t run block or hold pass blocking like they did last year, and hey weren’t great then.  Josh covered for them well last year.  Need to either change players or change blocking schemes for the players they have.  Neither is something that can be done well in the middle of the season.

 

Need to get back to shorter throws that don’t take time.  Josh has to stop trying to get it all in one throw.  Need to run fewer 5 wides and keep a TE or RB to help pass block.  Need to manufacture a run game somehow.  As long as we can’t run the ball or attempt to do so, the defense will just sit back and defend the pass.  Need balance which we do not have.  the offense will need to get points when you can, can’t always be a TD.  Defense is pretty good, just need to score 1 more point than the opposition.
 

 

 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, davefan66 said:

1. And 6. Go together.  If you add Sanders, someone sits.  It’s not going to be Diggs or Beas.  Davis loses.  Seems Josh has fallen in love with his bright, shiny, somewhat used toy.  Honestly, I don’t see what Sanders has brought to the team.  Taken balls from Diggs and Davis, doesn’t seem that he’s added much.  Should also be a good decoy to get the others more open, not just consume their catches.  His addition is a zero net gain.

 

2.  RB’s are not the problem.  Offensive line is for sure.  Can’t run block or hold pass blocking like they did last year, and hey weren’t great then.  Josh covered for them well last year.  Need to either change players or change blocking schemes for the players they have.  Neither is something that can be done well in the middle of the season.

 

Need to get back to shorter throws that don’t take time.  Josh has to stop trying to get it all in one throw.  Need to run fewer 5 wides and keep a TE or RB to help pass block.  Need to manufacture a run game somehow.  As long as we can’t run the ball or attempt to do so, the defense will just sit back and defend the pass.  Need balance which we do not have.  the offense will need to get points when you can, can’t always be a TD.  Defense is pretty good, just need to score 1 more point than the opposition.
 

 

 

 

Guys were open in the shorter throws. Allen was late in throws lots of them.  Lots of them could of been lots of yards. Even medium type yards, Allen was late. Making it harder for wr to get open. Not disagreeing what you said both are issues.

[Sharky7337]

Funny how a week or so ago I made many of the same points and I got flamed hard. I agree. 

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

Running game and also Josh needs to check the ball down to move the sticks.

[Ya Digg?]

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

Not all about check downs. Like a wr screen to Beasley sooner and right throw on money. First down rather than one yard gain. Even medium throws. Sooner lots of yards. Allen was late on lots of them. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

 

Agree. Running the ball badly and throwing check downs gets you the Steelers offense from the end of last season which couldn't move the ball. The Bills still have to attack downfield. They are not solving this crisis on offense with screens and dump offs. I think what they might need to do, however, is tweak some of Josh's progressions so that check down isn't the 4th option he gets to but is the 2nd or 3rd. Have a first option that is still a downfield throw (and I don't mean a deep shot I just mean an intermediate 10-15 yard throw) but then if the line doesn't hold Josh is immediately at check down or throw away. Try and limit the number of times Josh is trying to read 2 or 3 downfield routes behind this atrocious protection. But when the first read is there is has to come out on time. Josh cannot hold it waiting for the kill shot.

[BuffaloBillies]

Sometimes Josh needs to step straight up in the pocket vs always bubbling out right.

Case in point last week... Dawkins pushed his guy back and up the field (behind Josh) - wasn't great but was enough to keep him off Josh if he stepped into the pocket.

Instead, Josh bubbles back and right and went right into the defender for the sack.

[Robert Paulson]

11 hours ago, realtruelove said:

It appears that they are intentionally throttling the offense and using the regular season to test a multitude of plays, so teams in the playoffs will not be prepared for what will be unleashed on them.  

I've thought this as well through the year. It helps make more sense as to why we are calling such poorly designed plays/game plans

 

If OC/HC are stubbornly doing this every week thinking it will get better later and our talent will win games right now he just finally got a big enough 2 x 4 in the face last week to hopefully snap out of it.

[HappyDays]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But when the first read is there is has to come out on time. Josh cannot hold it waiting for the kill shot.

 

A good example is the very first play of the game:

 

 

I think what happened here is that Sweeney is his 2nd progression. Allen sees the FS drop back so far at the snap that he believes Sweeney will break open for a deep completion over the middle so he passes on the easy completion to Diggs, and based on the way the coverage develops you can see he is basically right. But by the time Sweeney had an opportunity to break open the offensive line is in Allen's lap. Also Sweeney is bad at separating and it doesn't look like he would have gotten open either way. Allen needs to go against his natural instinct and take the easy first read throw to Diggs every time. It's a tougher decision than people make it out to be though. You can't exclusively make 6 and 7 yard passes down the field and score TDs.

[Virgil]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

A good example is the very first play of the game:

 

 

I think what happened here is that Sweeney is his 2nd progression. Allen sees the FS drop back so far at the snap that he believes Sweeney will break open for a deep completion over the middle so he passes on the easy completion to Diggs, and based on the way the coverage develops you can see he is basically right. But by the time Sweeney had an opportunity to break open the offensive line is in Allen's lap. Also Sweeney is bad at separating and it doesn't look like he would have gotten open either way. Allen needs to go against his natural instinct and take the easy first read throw to Diggs every time. It's a tougher decision than people make it out to be though. You can't exclusively make 6 and 7 yard passes down the field and score TDs.

Why is Sweeny lining up wide at all?  That also makes no sense to me.  Sweeney should be the final check down when the rest of the play breaks down

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Why is Sweeny lining up wide at all?  That also makes no sense to me.  Sweeney should be the final check down when the rest of the play breaks down

 

We do not have a roster-worthy TE behind Knox. Daboll needs to use Sweeney exclusively as a blocker and check down option while Knox gets healthy. He cannot run seam routes.

[Nihilarian]

First off, the decline in offensive performance started last season when the Colts came into Buffalo for that playoff game. The Bills were on a 6 game winning roll and the last three games. Denver 48-19, NE 38-9, Miami 56-26. WOWSER! 

 

That Buffalo offense looked unstoppable!

 

The Colts playoff game 27-24 brought the Bills down to earth as they only won by 3 points and it was a close game. The next game against the Ravens the Buffalo offense only scored 10 points all game. The defense saved the Bills with a pick six from the end zone. -6 from them to +6 for us.

 

These two games it looked like the defenses had started to figure out how to slow the Bills scoring offense. It really looked bad in the AFC Championship game 38-24 and was exasperated with all the holding the Chiefs were doing on both sides of the ball. 

 

Dial into to that first game against the Steelers week one of 2021, a 16-23 loss. They had all offseason to study film on what the Bills were doing on offense and the Bills offense just kept rolling with the same old, same old.  

 

Allow me to point out that even one of the greatest QBs of our time in Aaron Rodgers went 6-9-1 in 2018 with little or no running game, 32nd in rush attempts that season.

Lafleur gets hired and the packers start running the ball, 13th in rush attempts in 2019. The Pack goes 13-3 with Rodgers at QB. 

 

Okay, what started this recent decline with the offensive line started with the back injury to RT Spencer Brown. The Bills replaced him by moving Williams from OG to RT along with a shuffle of other players moving around on the line. This last game the only real solid player was the center Morse. The two tackles and guards stunk it up. 

 

Most of last year the Bills line gave Josh Allen all the time he needed to make his reads, throws. The Chiefs games were exceptions. 

 

This year the QB hasn't had the luxury of being able to sit in the pocket and make his reads like last season and along with little or no run game from the RB's it lays the entire offense on the QB. 

(remember 2018 Aaron Rodgers?)

 

My take is that the decline in the Bills offense since the end of last season is for a few reasons. Opponents have figured out how to defeat the Bills passing scheme. Recently with a "cover 2 shell" and a strong four man pass rush. It seems that the Bills block with five simply can't hold off  four. Poor offensive line play.

 

Lastly, where is the innovation in the offense? Allen doesn't have time in the pocket, quick slants not in the playbook? Quick outs not in the playbook? 

 

This has heavy pressure on the QB has happened to the offense since 2018, in 2019 against the Ravens who were in Allen's face all game as they sacked him 6x. The Bills had no run game and no pass game... and ...yet ...still kept calling pass plays. Just like against the Jags this past game.

Just keep calling pass plays...something will work...

 

Want the run game to work even with a weak, poor O line? OG's stink?  Do what Cam Cameron did with the Ravens and bring in extra OT's to play TE. Five O linemen along with two extra tackles to block and they will move the ball on the ground. 

 

I've been advocating a stout Buffalo Bills run game for years and years. A strong run game to go along with the talent at receiver and this team would again be unstoppable on offense.

[CincyBillsFan]

This is an astonishing stat from the D&C:

 

‘When Allen hands off to Devin Singletary or Zack Moss, the results have generally been less than inspiring. The Bills have 22 runs of at least 10 yards this season, and Singletary and Moss have just nine combined, while Allen has 12 and Mitchell Trubisky one.’

 

When you think of how defenses are playing us the fact that Moss & Sngeterry have only broke 9 runs of at least 10 yards combined over 8 games is depressing. I would argue that there have been some 5 - 8 yard runs that should have gone for more then 10 yards as there were holes open.  Our RB's rarely break tackles, make defenders miss or accelerate away from LB's. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Lastly, where is the innovation in the offense? Allen doesn't have time in the pocket, quick slants not in the playbook? Quick outs not in the playbook? 

 

I mean look at the video @HappyDays posted above. A quick hitch was literally the first call of the game. Allen came off it to try and hit Sweeney deep and time ran out. 

 

I knew your response would be just run it but bringing in extra linemen is fine except it tips your hand that you are running. I think one of the problems as it is looks to be that the Bills offense has tells for when its run and pass. Bringing in jumbo personnel to grind out 4 yards per carry to go run, run, pass is not what this offense is built to do and it isn't what Allen does well.

[Calidiehard]

It seems to be a combination of things. I don't feel it's so much that they have figured us out as we've had certain deficiencies that that could counter what they are trying to do. Being very weak up the middle has allowed teams to rush 3 or 4 and win getting pressure in Josh's face while our tackle play has also been substantially weaker than last year. This has limited Josh's ability to escape at times and rushed throws he was able to sit back and make last year.  The deep crossers with the TE running the seam to put the safties in conflict take time, and the Oline hasn't been able to hold up like last year.  Add to that that we can't or don't really try and run the ball except in obvious situations isn't helping allowing dlines to pin their ears back and play games against the oline with almost zero risk of being burned by the run. 

I have no idea why we haven't run any motion to jet sweeps to slow the linebackers and dlinemen down? This helped with run game and playaction passes last year. We moved Diggs around much more last year with him playing in the slot at times to get better matchups, but this year almost exclusively on the outside. 

In the end our offense could still be very effective against the defenses we see if we did things to slow the pass rush down, line held up, and we could run the ball more effectively. This would force teams to change the coverage by bringing extra pressure which would allow for the bigger plays we saw last year. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I just stumbled across this troubling trend with the offense:

(starting with game 3 vs. Washington)

 

PF: 43-40-38-31-26-6

Yards: 481-450-436-417-351-301

 

And the defenses they've face (with rankings vs both)

WSH 28/29, HOU 30/28, KC 24/26, TEN 14/19, MIA 27/30, JAX 26/24

 

Downward trend vs. 5 Bad defenses and one middling. I said earlier I'm didn't think the league has us figured out. Not sure I believe that anymore. I've been saying for a few weeks now that we are relying on Allen too much. That much is true, just like KC with Mahomes. They both have covered for the Olines, but the schemes they're seeing now are causing both to try and do too much.

Edited November 11, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[Big Blitz]

I think you can put the Xs and Os to the side here honestly.  

 

 

It's underestimated how big a deal it is that the other team is just saying screw it - our front 4 is coming for the QB we don't care about your running backs.  

 

Our secondary is going to make you throw it to anyone other then Diggs.

 

 

If Allen plays well and he begins to recognize that hero ball isn't necessary AT ALL because of this defense and just takes what they give us - get to 24 points, we're going to win 7 of our last 9 games.