Allen refusal to throw underneath is killing us. Killing drives. This was on 17 strictly

[timekills17]

7 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

He refuses to just get a quick 6 7 yards to the RB or TE real quick, always looking to push and get the intermediate routes and he's phenomenal but you have to also take these easy 5 10 yard passes. 

He killed so many drives because of this.

D played phenomenal 

ST played phenomenal 

O played decent,  but Allen's refusal to throw underneath quickly, when you're facing a ton of pressure is his Worse trait and I love him for it at the same time but today it lost us what should have been a 2 TD win. He killed multiple drives directly because of this against one of the worse teams in the game. 

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

 

Already discussed in other posts - including you - but it's a combination of both taking the "checkdown" and instituting/taking the quick, short pass.

JA17 took the checkdown against the Jags. A bunch. Problem is it was often:

1) taking too long to get to it, leading to pressure and bad throws.

2) A CHECKDOWN. If plays were designed for more of the *short* crossers (*cough* pick plays *cough*) they'd allow for at least an opportunity to get YAC.

 

So it's a combination of JA17 and the play.

 

I'll also add we're saying our run game sucks which doesn't help - and blaming the RBs and Oline.

Both could be a LOT better, sure - but JA17 needs to improve his RPO choices too. He almost always keeps it to run himself when there is an opportunity, and waits so long when he gives it to the RB that there's no chance for a gain.

 

This delay in the hand-off is supposed to help in the play-action, because it makes the defense bite. But if you notice, the PA is always a quick fake. It's obvious to the defense who have to choose what to key on when the Bills are actually going to run.

It also makes it VERY hard on the OLine because they have to stay in a pass block until they're sure it's a run due to protecting JA17 and ensuring they don't get >1yd past LOS if it's a pass.

 

If they did a few PA snaps with the RPO delayed hand-off and then he either bootlegs (or preferably moves the pocket with a pass) - but the Oline *knows* that's the play rather than an actual RPO - we might see the RB and Oline look a lot better at run blocking.

Edited November 8, 2021 by timekills17

[Meatloaf63]

9 minutes ago, Chaos said:

This should have ended the this trolling thread 

It didn’t because it’s not the whole story…

[Brian3488]

Do what worked last year.. spread em 5 wide and dink and dunk down the field.. idk why the spread offense went out the window when it always worked for us 

[Meatloaf63]

4 minutes ago, timekills17 said:

 

Already discussed in other posts - including you - but it's a combination of both taking the "checkdown" and instituting/taking the quick, short pass.

JA17 took the checkdown against the Jags. A bunch. Problem is it was often:

1) taking too long to get to it, leading to pressure and bad throws.

2) A CHECKDOWN. If plays were designed for more of the *short* crossers (*cough* pick plays *cough*) they'd allow for at least an opportunity to get YAC.

 

So it's a combination of JA17 and the play.

 

I'll also add we're saying our run game sucks which doesn't help - and blaming the RBs and Oline.

Both could be a LOT better, sure - but JA17 needs to improve his RPO choices too. He almost always keeps it to run himself when there is an opportunity, and waits so long when he gives it to the RB that there's no chance for a gain.

 

This delay in the hand-off is supposed to help in the play-action, because it makes the defense bite. But if you notice, the PA is always a quick fake. It's obvious to the defense who have to choose what to key on when the Bills are actually going to run.

It also makes it VERY hard on the OLine because they have to stay in a pass block until they're sure it's a run due to protecting JA17 and ensuring they don't get >1yd past LOS if it's a pass.

 

If they did a few PA snaps with the RPO delayed hand-off and then he either bootlegs (or preferably moves the pocket with a pass) - but the Oline *knows* that's the play rather than an actual RPO - we might see the RB and Oline look a lot better at run blocking.

I would like to know how many times Josh keeps the ball during RPO’s and the success rate of them. It doesn’t appear very high, but it may just be we are noticing the failures more.

[colin]

allen was pretty much trash yesterday, he said as much.  the issue in our o is not allen turning chicken poop into chicken salad every play, he does that too much as it is.  the issue is trash OL play and just terrible overall OC scheme.  dabol loves to dial up creative stuff and odd formations, but we never find a good rhythm and we just make everything so difficult.  

 

we have the best QB/WR combo in the nfl, our overall stats from crushing cans shows that, but our O just friggen disappears way too often.  OL talent, OL coaching (i think biggest hole on the team) and our OC's lack of big picture understanding is killing us.

 

both miami games, pittz, and this jags game our O was in complete disarray.  That's half the games we have played this year. 

 

with the cans we have played, the d getting so many turnovers, and just the talent on O, we have some sick stats, but that's nothing consistent or repeatable, and that's a function of coaching more than anything else.

 

to all those who say it could be or is an execution issue more than a coaching issue: look at our penalties.  a lack of discipline comes from the top, and it's gotten to be way too much. 

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, Brian3488 said:

Do what worked last year.. spread em 5 wide and dink and dunk down the field.. idk why the spread offense went out the window when it always worked for us 

 

Ravens, KC, Pittsburg

[Buffalo03]

This loss was because of the oline and him having someone in his face on every play. A lack of a running hame also had to do with it. It was not on Allen

[Trogdor]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Taiwan didn't have a very good game yesterday but ordinarily he is a very good player for us in the kicking game. 

I hate carrying these special teams guys in a position that clearly needs help. You can't tell me they can't find a gunner who can also see the field sometimes.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I hate carrying these special teams guys in a position that clearly needs help. You can't tell me they can't find a gunner who can also see the field sometimes.

 

I'm telling you the Bills have two of the very best gunners around in Jones and Neal. You want the proof? So far this year we are 9th best in kickoff coverage and lead the NFL in punt coverage. Sure you can find "a gunner" you can't find ones as good as Jones and Neal. And honestly, the majority of teams in the NFL carry a coupe of special teams guys who almost never see the field in other spots. Fans undervalue STs. There are far bigger issues with this team right now than Taiwan Jones dressing ahead of Matt freaking Breida. 

[Trogdor]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm telling you the Bills have two of the very best gunners around in Jones and Neal. You want the proof? So far this year we are 9th best in kickoff coverage and lead the NFL in punt coverage. Sure you can find "a gunner" you can't find ones as good as Jones and Neal. And honestly, the majority of teams in the NFL carry a coupe of special teams guys who almost never see the field in other spots. Fans undervalue STs. There are far bigger issues with this team right now than Taiwan Jones dressing ahead of Matt freaking Breida. 

You're acting like Breida is some scrub or a Rugby player with no NFL experience. If Jones didn't dress and they instantly became significantly worse on kick offs I'd believe it's him. Then sit Singletary, I don't care but they need to do something new. And for the love of God chip with a TE against these fast DEs. 

[FilthyBeast]

So I was ready to start heaping on the blame on JA17, until I saw a stat that yesterday was the 3rd game of the season in which the oline gave up 20+ pressures in a single game. Just think about how pathetic and sad that is especially against a Jags defense that struggled all season until of course they played the Bills.

 

Yes Allen can do some things better at times but playing behind such an atrocious oline is the reason this team is struggling and may likely miss the playoffs altogether down the stretch.

 

Bottom line, if we do in fact miss the playoffs and/or one and done in the playoffs it won't be JA17 fault and this is coming from one of his biggest critics at times.

[Trogdor]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

So I was ready to start heaping on the blame on JA17, until I saw a stat that yesterday was the 3rd game of the season in which the oline gave up 20+ pressures in a single game. Just think about how pathetic and sad that is especially against a Jags defense that struggled all season until of course they played the Bills.

 

Yes Allen can do some things better at times but playing behind such an atrocious oline is the reason this team is struggling and may likely miss the playoffs altogether down the stretch.

 

Bottom line, if we do in fact miss the playoffs and/or one and done in the playoffs it won't be JA17 fault and this is coming from one of his biggest critics at times.

Their inability to scheme for teams with good edge pressure is a problem. They just don't adapt well. 

[FilthyBeast]

Just now, Trogdor said:

Their inability to scheme for teams with good edge pressure is a problem. They just don't adapt well. 

 

And that's on the coaching staff obviously

 

There's a reason why Daboll's offenses in the NFL sucked prior to last year and why he wasn't hired as the chargers or other teams HC last year.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

This is the worst state of TSW I have seen in a long time.  Never seen so many useless, fact-less, uniformed, absurd and completely wrong hot takes like this in forever…heck maybe ever.  
 

Funny, I have a bunch of private messages from long standing sane posters all talking about how we may need to avoid this place the rest of the week as it’s getting worse by the hour.  

[Jauronimo]

 

Just a guess here, so go easy on me, but I think the right guard may have picked up the wrong guy.

[transplantbillsfan]

Wait... have you seen the film? Did we have tons of WRs running open underneath on most plays?

 

I remember Allen checking down short multiple times and our WRs and RBs gaining very few yards after the catch.

 

Beasley's first 7 catches were for less than 30 yards. Doesn't that alone negate your premise?

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

We do not have a RB capable of accelerating and Sweeney is a huge drop off from Knox.

It's almost as if we went into the season with no depth behind a developing TE in Knox and no outside running threat other than a reclamation project in Matt Breida.

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

It's almost as if we went into the season with no depth behind a developing TE in Knox and no outside running threat other than a reclamation project in Matt Breida.

 

Yep I think failing to upgrade the RB room was our biggest failure in the offseason. The o-line has been bad but Beane didn't really do anything wrong. He brought back the same o-line that was capable of pass blocking last year, but Dawkins and Williams and Feliciano have inexplicably regressed. He also added two OTs in the draft one of whom looks like a knockout pick.

 

Meanwhile with RBs we decided to run it back with the same below average RBs we had last year. I believe a quick passing game to a dynamic RB would cover up a lot of our pass protection issues right now. I wish we had tried to add one.

[The Frankish Reich]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yep I think failing to upgrade the RB room was our biggest failure in the offseason. The o-line has been bad but Beane didn't really do anything wrong. He brought back the same o-line that was capable of pass blocking last year, but Dawkins and Williams and Feliciano have inexplicably regressed. He also added two OTs in the draft one of whom looks like a knockout pick.

 

Meanwhile with RBs we decided to run it back with the same below average RBs we had last year. I believe a quick passing game to a dynamic RB would cover up a lot of our pass protection issues right now. I wish we had tried to add one.

I agree with the idea that they've regressed, but I don't think it's inexplicable. Dawkins came into came greatly weakened by a bout with COVID, and at this point I'm not sure he'll regain his form during the course of the season -- he may need a full offseason to put back the weight and strength. Feliciano was always kind of a marginal starter (he'd be best suited on a strong line as a backup guard/center) and, of course, whoever is playing at LG will suffer from Dawkins' reduced strength.

So ... it's a problem, and one that probably will be there all season. I view the failure to make some kind of deal before the trade deadline as GM malpractice. We have a tremendous window of opportunity now as the Chiefs are starting to look like they're into a down cycle and nobody else has shown they're quite ready to emerge as the favorites in the AFC. I'm not saying mortgage the future, but there were opportunities to upgrade and/or plug some holes on the O line and at RB, and that simply didn't happen in the offseason or even before the trade deadline.

[cale]

This O Line sucks. Especially the right side. Almost every snap he was under pressure. Until the line is fixed, this is going to be an issue. They need to move the pocket now to protect Josh. It plays to his strengths too.

Please refer to Titans v Rams last night for how to beat these pass rush heavy teams. Especially ones where the secondary is vulnerable.

 

Time to drop the 11 personnel for now and go 21. Or try Kumerow in a hybrid WR/TE position. He is a big big man.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, cale said:

This O Line sucks. Especially the right side. Almost every snap he was under pressure. Until the line is fixed, this is going to be an issue. They need to move the pocket now to protect Josh. It plays to his strengths too.

Please refer to Titans v Rams last night for how to beat these pass rush heavy teams. Especially ones where the secondary is vulnerable.

 

Time to drop the 11 personnel for now and go 21. Or try Kumerow in a hybrid WR/TE position. He is a big big man.

Lee Smith, Bills Nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

[Toyo321]

9 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

And that's on the coaching staff obviously

 

There's a reason why Daboll's offenses in the NFL sucked prior to last year and why he wasn't hired as the chargers or other teams HC last year.

 

The problem is now we are stuck with Daboll and have to live with Beane's unwilling attempt to bring in any OL help at all.  We all know Ford sucks, how in the world does Beane not bring anyone in to permanently put Ford on the bench.  Anything at this point is a upgrade over Ford....

 

[CincyBillsFan]

21 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

No.   

 

He actually did take the underneath stuff today and there was minimal yac 

 

Beasely and Singletary combined for 15 catches - for 76 yards.  

 

Cole had 8 catches for 33 yards.  

 

How's that even possible????

Great point backed up by actual game data.  These people keep flogging the dead horse that Allen won't take the check down throws when he clearly does.  And the amount of YAC produced by our RB's and TE's not named Knox is anemic.  And yesterday Beasley was clearly not healthy so we lost the YAC he normally produces.

 

And to claim yesterday's loss was strictly on Allen can only be called trolling as it completely ignores an O-line performance that with the missed blocks and awful penalties may have been the worst performance by an O line in years.

 

 

 

 

[JerseyBills]

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:45 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

This is the worst state of TSW I have seen in a long time.  Never seen so many useless, fact-less, uniformed, absurd and completely wrong hot takes like this in forever…heck maybe ever.  
 

Funny, I have a bunch of private messages from long standing sane posters all talking about how we may need to avoid this place the rest of the week as it’s getting worse by the hour.  

 

 

I avoid the GDTs and sparsely visit the SB. 

 

AND my tongue 👅 is sore from biting it 

 

 

With all the “Woe is us” threads. 
 

Calling them “Corrupt Refs” when calling them incompetent is sufficient 

Edited November 10, 2021 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

 

 

Jesus is that guy clueless 

 

JA has the same stats through 8 games in 2021 as he had in 2020

The only thing down is completion % by 

 

2 whole points 😳

[3rdand12]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:35 PM, The Frankish Reich said:

Lee Smith, Bills Nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

Tis true enough. Lol Frankish

 

Reggie Gilliam project has not panned out whatsoever.

 

[JaCrispy]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:03 AM, JerseyBills said:

He refuses to just get a quick 6 7 yards to the RB or TE real quick, always looking to push and get the intermediate routes and he's phenomenal but you have to also take these easy 5 10 yard passes. 

He killed so many drives because of this.

D played phenomenal 

ST played phenomenal 

O played decent,  but Allen's refusal to throw underneath quickly, when you're facing a ton of pressure is his Worse trait and I love him for it at the same time but today it lost us what should have been a 2 TD win. He killed multiple drives directly because of this against one of the worse teams in the game. 

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

 

 

Completely agree...

 

In fact, I was saying the same thing about Josh after the Titans game...he did the same thing on the 2nd to last drive, by continuing to throw deep 3 straight times (with the lead) instead of moving the chains, and running out the clock...

 

His biggest strength is his biggest weakness, and he’s going to have to get over being bored with short passes, because that’s how the league is going to keep playing him...

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Just now, JaCrispy said:

Completely agree...

 

In fact, I was saying the same thing about Josh after the Titans game...he did the same thing on the 2nd to last drive, by continuing to throw deep 3 straight times (with the lead) instead of moving the chains, and running out the clock...

 

His biggest strength is his biggest weakness, and he’s going to have to get over being bored with short passes, because that’s how the league is going to keep playing him...

 

Watched a full breakdown, he was early or late underneath passes. Lots of them.

[JerseyBills]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:45 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

This is the worst state of TSW I have seen in a long time.  Never seen so many useless, fact-less, uniformed, absurd and completely wrong hot takes like this in forever…heck maybe ever.  
 

Funny, I have a bunch of private messages from long standing sane posters all talking about how we may need to avoid this place the rest of the week as it’s getting worse by the hour.  

You're actually the delusional one.

I love Allen. I wouldn't trade him for anyone.  But I'm also going to point out his flaws and last week his flaws cost us a W. The tape clearly shows a ton of yards left on the field. 

It's become everyone's fault but 17 on here. I knew I'd catch major flack for this post but it's becoming a trend for him and a drive killer. 

 

[billsfan1959]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:45 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

This is the worst state of TSW I have seen in a long time.  Never seen so many useless, fact-less, uniformed, absurd and completely wrong hot takes like this in forever…heck maybe ever.  
 

Funny, I have a bunch of private messages from long standing sane posters all talking about how we may need to avoid this place the rest of the week as it’s getting worse by the hour.  

 

I really think it is a small percentage of posters. However, they have absolutely taken over the board this week. I thought it would have started to subside by now...

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

You're actually the delusional one.

I love Allen. I wouldn't trade him for anyone.  But I'm also going to point out his flaws and last week his flaws cost us a W. The tape clearly shows a ton of yards left on the field. 

It's become everyone's fault but 17 on here. I knew I'd catch major flack for this post but it's becoming a trend for him and a drive killer. 

 

Its hard to stray to far from what gave Buffalo the most explosive O in the league last season without an alternative that works well. I'm not sure we have one. Allen likes to make big plays and I refuse to call it a flaw. 

 

I think most of the blame starts at the top with Daboll, or even higher If McD doesn't get the Bills O on track somehow. Buffalo needs to run the ball better for starters. Its not something that can be approached as an afterthought IMO. We have to establish a good run game.

[UKBillFan]

14 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I really think it is a small percentage of posters. However, they have absolutely taken over the board this week. I thought it would have started to subside by now...

To be fair, Sunday was an utter embarrassment - people won’t forget quickly, even if we somehow blowout the Jets.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

 

This what I was afraid of.

 

Clear evidence that Josh has regressed 

[John from Riverside]

44 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

You're actually the delusional one.

I love Allen. I wouldn't trade him for anyone.  But I'm also going to point out his flaws and last week his flaws cost us a W. The tape clearly shows a ton of yards left on the field. 

It's become everyone's fault but 17 on here. I knew I'd catch major flack for this post but it's becoming a trend for him and a drive killer. 

 

I dont even have words.....the cockroaches really do come out on this board after losses

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

This what I was afraid of.

 

Clear evidence that Josh has regressed 

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

 

This is what is meant by "regression." No, Josh Allen did not get "worse" than he was last year. No, Josh Allen did not unlearn the important things he learned in 2019 and 2020. Unless we're talking about a veteran mediocrity who suddenly has a great season in his mid-30s (Rich Gannon?), we never know when a guy is having a career season until after the fact. You could say the same thing about Patrick Mahomes' sophomore NFL season, his first as a starter.

We still have a very, very good QB, and he'll still do great things. He may have seasons that equal or even exceed his 2020 season. But absolutely everything fell into place just right last year, and no one should realistically expect that to happen year after year after year. 

[UKBillFan]

Just now, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

 

 

And if he’d had an average game on Sunday his 2021 stats would have probably been ahead of 2020. Saying that, at this point last season you could argue we had played a tougher schedule - minus two matches against the Jets plus the Dolphins we had faced the Rams, the Raiders, the Patriots, the Chiefs and the Titans.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:

You're actually the delusional one.

I love Allen. I wouldn't trade him for anyone.  But I'm also going to point out his flaws and last week his flaws cost us a W. The tape clearly shows a ton of yards left on the field. 

It's become everyone's fault but 17 on here. I knew I'd catch major flack for this post but it's becoming a trend for him and a drive killer. 

 

 

Im delusional?  You started a thread about him NOT throwing under neath when he probably threw UNDERNEATH more in this game than he has all season.  Sorry, your thread is ridiculous in that nature as many others have already pointed out to you and showed you the actual facts of how much he did throw underneath.  

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I really think it is a small percentage of posters. However, they have absolutely taken over the board this week. I thought it would have started to subside by now...

 

Funny a lot of them are people I have never even heard of or rarely see around here (not saying the OP here, but in general).  Suddenly they are in like 100 threads whining about all this doom and gloom nonsense, McD and Beane suck, Allen sucks, our receivers suck, our DL sucks...and so on and so on.  Just say something negative in the thread title and these ghosts will post 100 times in that thread.  Once we win again, we wont hear from them until the next loss.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

Jesus is that guy clueless 

 

JA has the same stats through 8 games in 2021 as he had in 2020

The only thing down is completion % by 

 

2 whole points 😳

What do his stats through 8 games tell you about his performance last week?