Allen refusal to throw underneath is killing us. Killing drives. This was on 17 strictly

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

5 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

It's just showing in general he has consistent underneath options but seems to always go for big yards. 

Sometimes you gotta take that easy 8 yards. 

You can have fun with 2nd n 2. Not so much with 2nd n 10

Look, in general, I think there’s some merit to your overall thesis.  However, scheme, play design, and progressions have a lot to do with it as well.  This is a team that wants to push the ball downfield and live in that intermediate area of the field.  That said, you picked the wrong game and still shots for your analytical evidence.
 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

You don't think there's a solid chance Moss splits the D and walks in.

We see these type of TDs every week. Only 2 defenders would have had an impact. Moss has all the momentum as well.

 

USUALLY Easy TD

I’m being totally honest…Moss won’t come available until he hits the opposite hash and I don’t think it’s likely he scores at all

[JerseyBills]

6 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

I don't have all 22 but a still shot with what looks like a free defender running towards Josh and another defender winning on the other side doesn't convince me that literally a half a second after this still shot those didn't guys get to Josh. You did say it was a sack right?

It was but he had plenty time. Held ball too long. DL didn't effect him til like 2 seconds later

I'm only posting throws where he could have def had that easy completion. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I’m being totally honest…Moss won’t come available until he hits the opposite hash and I don’t think it’s likely he scores at all

Agree, not on 3rd and goal.  On 1st or 2nd down, you make that throw and get to the 3 yd line.

[JerseyBills]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I’m being totally honest…Moss won’t come available until he hits the opposite hash and I don’t think it’s likely he scores at all

True. 

We could argue our points and have no way of knowing he'd def score. 

I think he easily does but even so, that throw was to Moss on the right sideline with him covered very well.

Wouldn't you rather try the quick dump off??

[What a Tuel]

6 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

It was but he had plenty time. Held ball too long. DL didn't effect him til like 2 seconds later

I'm only posting throws where he could have def had that easy completion. 

 

Not even a second after your screen shot. Could he have gotten the ball out? Maybe, tough to say in less than a second. Could our o line have blocked the effing terrible Jaguars defensive front 4 with 5 O lineman for more than 1 second? Sure. If Josh has that half a second longer, he dumps off to either of them for a big gain. But play was snapped at 12:23, Josh had a free runner on him at 12:22 and was sacked at 12:21. Ill defer to the o line being at fault here.

Edited November 8, 2021 by What a Tuel

[Bruffalo]

2 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

I think this is the OP's point. You can't get YAC if Allen holds the ball too long then finally decides on the short route. It leaves the reciever with nothing left to do other than being tackled immediately after the catch.

 

If the short game is in the game plan, it has to be executed with anticipation and quick throws or there will be no YAC. Allen finally deciding to throw short after 7 seconds is not a short game plan...

 

Watch Mac Jones on how to propetly execute a short game plan.

I don't think it's an Allen problem frankly.  It's a Daboll problem.

[Protocal69]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

No.   

 

He actually did take the underneath stuff today and there was minimal yac 

 

Beasely and Singletary combined for 15 catches - for 76 yards.  

 

Cole had 8 catches for 33 yards.  

 

How's that even possible????

Right. I rewatched the tape and the problem was he took the checkdown too ofter passing up bigger windows right in front of him. I think this was a directly reflection on how the OL was playing and him for example not trusting Sweeney as much as Knox on a couple of plays that stood out.

[JerseyBills]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

You combed through broadcast footage and took screenshots to prove that the Bills have RBs running check down routes? Thank you for your service.

Check down routes that would have helped our drive tremendously.  Check down routes that greatly improve our chances of a successful drive

Wait til I show the All 22. It was bad. 

5 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Not even a second after your screen shot. Could he have gotten the ball out? Maybe, tough to say in less than a second. Could our o line have blocked the effing terrible Jaguars defensive front 4 with 5 O lineman for more than 1 second? Sure. If Josh has that half a second longer, he dumps off to either of them for a big gain. But play was snapped at 12:23, Josh had a free runner on him at 12:22 and was sacked at 12:21. Ill defer to the o line being at fault here.

2 seconds but point is , he had Sweeney n Motor for nice gains. He had plenty of time.  He didn't even look at em cause he was looking intermediate 

[What a Tuel]

2 minutes ago, Protocal69 said:

Right. I rewatched the tape and the problem was he took the checkdown too ofter passing up bigger windows right in front of him. I think this was a directly reflection on how the OL was playing and him for example not trusting Sweeney as much as Knox on a couple of plays that stood out.

 

Exactly. You could see after every snap the pressure was in his face. He did quite a few checkdowns that got us nowhere. 

4 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Check down routes that would have helped our drive tremendously.  Check down routes that greatly improve our chances of a successful drive

Wait til I show the All 22. It was bad. 

2 seconds but point is , he had Sweeney n Motor for nice gains. He had plenty of time.  He didn't even look at em cause he was looking intermediate 

 

2 seconds til he was sacked. 1 second after snap, he felt the free runner. You mistake looking for the intermediate route for feeling the pressure and running for his life.

[JerseyBills]

3 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Exactly. You could see after every snap the pressure was in his face. He did quite a few checkdowns that got us nowhere. 

 

2 seconds til he was sacked. 1 second after snap, he felt the free runner. You mistake looking for the intermediate route for feeling the pressure and running for his life.

He had enough time to hit either. 

2020 Allen does imo...

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

He is following his read progressions. If a play is designed to go to the RB in the flat he will get it to them fast. But we shouldn't be running a lot of those plays because - again - Moss and Singletary are slow and have no explosiveness. All that space you're seeing underneath is gifted to us by defenses because they know they have nothing to fear from our RBs. When Knox is back he will once again become our most viable check down option. Until then it is a win for the defense every time Moss or Singletary or Sweeney touch the ball. They are all below average football players. We aren't scoring TDs with that trio.

👍

Wasting you're time here. After the OP was proven wrong about the underneath throws... so he then starts talking about not getting the ball out quicker to the underneath players.

 

8 catches for 33 yards for Beasley says to me Beas was getting hit as soon as he caught the ball. 

 

Allen 31 of 47 for 264 yards, 2 INTs, 4 sacks.  12 penalties for 112 yards on Buffalo.

 

This isn't about Allen's failure as the offense was all on his shoulders. The Buffalo O line stinks and they can't run the ball at... all besides Allen...who had 5 rushes for 50 yards, a 10 YPC AVG. 

 

9 carries by the Buffalo RBs vs 47 attempts for 2.0 YPC, 2.7 YPC...NINE RB carries for TWELVE yards! 

 

BTW, Zack Moss left the game with a concussion. 

 

6 points to the 28th ranked defense this week. Miami had the 32nd ranked defense. 

 

To me, this is about the offensive game plan or lack thereof and the play calls. Where is the innovation for both the run game and pass game? The #1 NFL offense should have destroyed this 1-6 team. 

[chongli]

Actually, this loss was strictly on the poster who started that thread wondering how much Trubisky should play and that the Bills would win easily.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Cover two shell is kryptonite for this offense. They allow it to completely marginalize the WRs.  

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

I think OP is referring to the quick slant or cross. Not a wr or rb screen or a throwing underneath on broken plays etc.  it’s the quick take the snap and let it loose. 

As someone who’s watched this offense very closely for years, what’s a quick slant or cross? 
 

they just don’t. 
 

I don’t know why. Every wr route seems like 4 seconds to the break 

[MJS]

Really? Strictly on Josh Allen? No blame at all for the oline getting spun like tops every drop back, if they were even close enough to the pass rushers to even get spun?

 

The loss is on the oline. Yes, Allen could have played better, but he played poorly because he was running for his life all game long. And interior pressure is always the worst kind for QB's, and that's mostly what it was.

 

Everyone on offense needs to be better including the QB, play callers, and probably coaches too. But most of all, the oline.

1 hour ago, Gene1973 said:

We know how Belichick will beat the Bills twice this season with a rookie QB already.

What will you do if the Bills beat the Patriots? Will you agree to stop posting?

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Allen refusal to throw underneath is killing us. Killing drives. This was on 17 strictly

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

 

 

Yes, it was on him.

 

No, not strictly him. There was a lot of blame to go around.

 

The whole offense was pretty bad.

 

Giving your opinion seems to have come to be referred to as "being real." So yeah, you were doing that. You're certainly right that he had enough awful plays that he hurt us really badly, which you can't often say about him. But he wasn't the only one to have enough bad games to have a major bad effect on the game.

[mannc]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

He refuses to just get a quick 6 7 yards to the RB or TE real quick, always looking to push and get the intermediate routes and he's phenomenal but you have to also take these easy 5 10 yard passes. 

He killed so many drives because of this.

D played phenomenal 

ST played phenomenal 

O played decent,  but Allen's refusal to throw underneath quickly, when you're facing a ton of pressure is his Worse trait and I love him for it at the same time but today it lost us what should have been a 2 TD win. He killed multiple drives directly because of this against one of the worse teams in the game. 

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

You’re going to have to back this up with some film because I thought JA looked like Capt Checkdown yesterday.  I don’t think there are guys getting open in the 1.5 seconds before the pass rush gets home.  Maybe I’m wrong, though. I do know the WRs had two killer drops (on perfect throws) that gave the ball back to Jacksonville…

Edited November 8, 2021 by mannc

[JoshAllin]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Allen refusal to throw underneath is killing us. Killing drives. This was on 17 strictly

This game is actually the result of throwing underneath and dumping it off, a big fat 9 score all game. Don't understand the love on here to throw short it just throws allen off his game.

 

During the last quarter when they finally started throwing to diggs is when the offense looked like its former self. Have plays where allen moves out the pocket and to hit the mid to deep passes. But this looks to be mostly due to the injury to OL and everyone out of sync

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

He refuses to just get a quick 6 7 yards to the RB or TE real quick, always looking to push and get the intermediate routes and he's phenomenal but you have to also take these easy 5 10 yard passes. 

He killed so many drives because of this.

D played phenomenal 

ST played phenomenal 

O played decent,  but Allen's refusal to throw underneath quickly, when you're facing a ton of pressure is his Worse trait and I love him for it at the same time but today it lost us what should have been a 2 TD win. He killed multiple drives directly because of this against one of the worse teams in the game. 

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

 

Josh was taking those all day.  You cant move the ball consistently doing that.  Our guys get no YAC.  I have actually had enough of this theory of take what the defense gives you.  There is a reason they give the check down up.  Its because its not dangerous enough to do anything other than get a few first downs here and there.

 

The RBs had 9 catches for 61 yards.  Sweeny had 2 catches for 10 yards.  Mckenzie had 2 catches for 10 yards.  Those are your check downs. 13 catches for 81 yards at ~6ish a catch. Technically you could add Beasley in that if you wanted. Another 8 catches for 33 yards. Did you watch the football game?  

Edited November 8, 2021 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

This isn't a TD to Moss?!!!

That's an EASY 7

 

 

There's so many more . I'll post the evidence tmrw. Go Bills

 

No it isn't.  There are two guys that would close on him as soon as the ball is released.  I don't think you realize how fast guys can cover 5 yards distance.  Those two guys are watching Allen.  As soon as that arm comes forward enough they are moving to the ball.  At best that is a 2 yard gain on 3rd and goal.

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Resulted in sack..

 

That resulted in a sack because two guys were on him before the play developed.

[GunnerBill]

At times Josh Allen has a tendency to hold the ball too long, I agree. It has at times resurfaced this season, and the reason in my mind is that he gets good protection so rarely that when it holds up he wants to really take advantage of that with a big chunk play so those plays where the line holds he doesn't want to checkdown he wants to go deep. The only criticism I'd have on those plays is actually I think he should just locate #14 and chuck it up a few times. Diggs will make him some plays whether that be catches or DPIs. 

 

The rest of the post is nonsense. If you want to put yesterday on #17 for three bad turnovers I will listen to that argument. But we did not lose yesterday because he didn't take check downs. That is just plain wrong. 

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

It was but he had plenty time. Held ball too long. DL didn't effect him til like 2 seconds later

I'm only posting throws where he could have def had that easy completion. 

 

It was a split second later.  You have no idea what you are seeing nor do you have a feel for actual time.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

You literally have 3 defenders (one off screen) with no one to guard watching the screen to Moss. How can you guarantee a td there? You want discussion? That is the argument that Allen was trying for the TD, not a 5 yard gain and a field goal.

 

If there is a throw I want Josh to try and make there it is to try and fit it in to #14 coming across the endzone. It is a tight window and the safety at the back might break on it but that is the only potential touchdown throw I see there. It would have taken a laser throw and potentially Diggs holding on in traffic but I do think if there is a knock on them at the moment they need to trust #14 more. He might be covered, it might be tight, but you gotta give him a chance to make plays. He is the difference maker. 

[JMF2006]

I am pinning this on the O line.

 

Jax did not want to get embarrassed and played hungry.

[Trogdor]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Every time Moss or Singletary or Sweeney caught the ball they were tackled almost instantly. We do not have a RB capable of accelerating and Sweeney is a huge drop off from Knox. We can't go 5-6 yards at a time all the way to the end zone. If we had a legitimate dynamic RB then yes that would be a more viable strategy.

Pretty sure he still wouldn't dress. Yeldon, Williams, and now Breida are just not given a chance. I'd even try some Wade right now because Taiwan is bringing nothing to the table that they can't replace. They seem pretty set on forcing their drafted guys up though. 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Pretty sure he still wouldn't dress. Yeldon, Williams, and now Breida are just not given a chance. I'd even try some Wade right now because Taiwan is bringing nothing to the table that they can't replace. They seem pretty set on forcing their drafted guys up though. 

 

If you think any of those 3 are the answer to anything you are asking the wrong question. 

[oldmanfan]

The OP must have been watching a different game.  This game was lost up front.  We had 5 guys who did not physically hold up.  As a unit they did not have the strength to move guys in the run game or keep them off Josh.  How may times did guys get pushed straight back the last few weeks.  
 

The short term fix is for Daboll to call more really quick passes.  The long term fix is for Beane to upgrade the line.

[78thealltimegreat]

6 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

HE HOLDS THE BALL TOO LONG

 

He has to hit them immediately,  his holding onto the ball to much is becoming a problem.

 

 

That’s more a schematic thing then anything they don’t really ask Josh for quick release throws you’d be looking at more of a pure west coast system like something Andy Reid implements then the Dabolls philosophy 

[whorlnut]

This thread was not very well thought out. At one point today, our leading rusher was our qb and our leading receiver was the awful Devin Singletary. That can’t happen. 

[Meatloaf63]

7 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

He refuses to just get a quick 6 7 yards to the RB or TE real quick, always looking to push and get the intermediate routes and he's phenomenal but you have to also take these easy 5 10 yard passes. 

He killed so many drives because of this.

D played phenomenal 

ST played phenomenal 

O played decent,  but Allen's refusal to throw underneath quickly, when you're facing a ton of pressure is his Worse trait and I love him for it at the same time but today it lost us what should have been a 2 TD win. He killed multiple drives directly because of this against one of the worse teams in the game. 

 

This one was on 17. 

 

You people refuse to admit or admit this fatal flaw. I know I'm going to get flack. I love 17 . Just being real. Giving my opinion. 

You are correct and look at all the negative responses. Every loss we had this year could have been a win if he and Daboll understood how to beat pressure. But after all these years they both still don’t get it. If you actually pay close attention, yes sometimes late he throws to the back and there are a few plays that are designed short, but their are often plays long developing plays they he looks at a wide ope receiver 5-8 yards upfield only to throw a much longer incompletion to a double covered receiver 20 + yards up field.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Meatloaf63

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

You are correct and look at all the negative responses. Every loss we had this year could have been a win if he and Daboll understood how to beat pressure. But after all these years they both still don’t get it.

 

Beating cover 0 and beating a 4 man rush are two different things.  There is no making up for line play this bad.  There just isn't.

[Meatloaf63]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Beating cover 0 and beating a 4 man rush are two different things.  There is no making up for line play this bad.  There just isn't.

That’s absolutely compounding the problem. Anyone who didn’t understand that issue after last year’s playoffs isn’t  paying attention. It’s magnifying the problem, but they are very related.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Meatloaf63

[Trogdor]

48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If you think any of those 3 are the answer to anything you are asking the wrong question. 

They aren't great, but they show more than what we have. Yeldon had a great game receiving and decent rushing and was never seen again. Williams was always falling forward, and Breida is the change of pace we desperately need. None of them is a singular answer, but why play Taiwan every week and take away the option. Moss is a better version than Singletary, but they are basically the same back. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Trogdor said:

They aren't great, but they show more than what we have. Yeldon had a great game receiving and decent rushing and was never seen again. Williams was always falling forward, and Breida is the change of pace we desperately need. None of them is a singular answer, but why play Taiwan every week and take away the option. Moss is a better version than Singletary, but they are basically the same back. 

 

Taiwan didn't have a very good game yesterday but ordinarily he is a very good player for us in the kicking game. 

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said:

That’s absolutely compounding the problem. Anyone who didn’t understand that issue after last year’s playoffs isn’t  paying attention. It’s magnifying the problem, but they are very related.

 

There is no making up for the o line play.  Two weeks ago Josh was getting 2.4 seconds before pressure.  After the Miami game that dropped to 2.1 seconds.  I expect it will drop further this week but that isn't updated until Wednesday.  They would have to run an offense like the Pats in the passing game but the Bills have no run game so that isn't going to work for our team.  They simply cannot hide the line anymore and defenses know... get pressure with 4, max coverage, don't worry about the run.  Its just that simple for them.

[Meatloaf63]

31 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

That’s more a schematic thing then anything they don’t really ask Josh for quick release throws you’d be looking at more of a pure west coast system like something Andy Reid implements then the Dabolls philosophy 

When Dabolls philosophy fails, he usually has no answers how to adjust or doesn’t recognize it quick enough…

[Chaos]

7 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

No.   

 

He actually did take the underneath stuff today and there was minimal yac 

 

Beasely and Singletary combined for 15 catches - for 76 yards.  

 

Cole had 8 catches for 33 yards.  

 

How's that even possible????

This should have ended the this trolling thread 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

There is no making up for the o line play.  Two weeks ago Josh was getting 2.4 seconds before pressure.  After the Miami game that dropped to 2.1 seconds.  I expect it will drop further this week but that isn't updated until Wednesday.  They would have to run an offense like the Pats in the passing game but the Bills have no run game so that isn't going to work for our team.  They simply cannot hide the line anymore and defenses know... get pressure with 4, max coverage, don't worry about the run.  Its just that simple for them.

 

Agree they can't. I think what they have to do a bit is stop coaching scared of it. Throwing 15 screens a game is not the answer. They have to call their offense and just make clear to Josh if it isn't there throw it away fast and get out of dodge. It will kill completion percentages and it might look ugly but it is the only way I can see us moving the ball unless the oline suddenly turns it around. I do wonder a bit if the Bills were fooled into thinking this line was better than it is (they actually were above average in pass pro last year) because of the lack of offensive holding calls in 2020 which was a deliberate move by the NFL in my opinion to not further sap energy from the game in empty stadiums. 

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree they can't. I think what they have to do a bit is stop coaching scared of it. Throwing 15 screens a game is not the answer. They have to call their offense and just make clear to Josh if it isn't there throw it away fast and get out of dodge. It will kill completion percentages and it might look ugly but it is the only way I can see us moving the ball unless the oline suddenly turns it around. I do wonder a bit if the Bills were fooled into thinking this line was better than it is (they actually were above average in pass pro last year) because of the lack of offensive holding calls in 2020 which was a deliberate move by the NFL in my opinion to not further sap energy from the game in empty stadiums. 

 

Agree with all of this.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

When Dabolls philosophy fails, he usually has no answers how to adjust or doesn’t recognize it quick enough…

 

It is hard to adjust to having no offensive line. Like others have said if you have a super quick game (ball out within 2 seconds) with no running game where you end up is the Steelers down the stretch last year where they couldn't move the ball and couldn't score. If the line plays as bad as yesterday I am afraid you could have Vince Lombardi and Bill Walsh calling plays and you'd still be in trouble. That isn't to say Daboll is blameless, see my post above.... he is coaching scared of his line IMO and over-adjusting if anything... but that line would kill most offenses.