Shout out to Matt Haack

[RyanC883]

5 hours ago, Einstein said:

Haack is terrible at punting. Glad he can hold a ball though.

 

he does like to hold it when punting also!

[Herc11]

2 hours ago, klos63 said:

I've read that teams have moved away from backup QB's as holders because the punter , being on special teams, can practice more with special teams than a QB can ,who needs to spend his time with the offense.

I guess that makes sense

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Re those stats, we also now know why their “hang time” is comparable. Haack takes like 3 extra steps before he punts!! 

I read that too. But then why not have a WR, like a Kumerow hold? He pretty much only plays special teams and as a receiver, he probably has better hands than the punter to catch and spin the ball. 

 

Belichick covered this at length recently in a press conference. Position players have to spend time in practice with their position groups. So they wouldn't get enough practice holding. 

 

And then there's injuries... Could you imagine not being able to attempt a game tying fg bc the #6 wr got knocked out of the game on a kick return?

 

 

[T&C]

4 hours ago, Rigotz said:

The holds have been great.

The punting has been below average.

 

We lost the Steelers game because he took an hour to punt.

I'm not ready to give him a "shout out" for doing 1 of his 2 responsibilities well. 

He only has 2 blocked punts in his NFL career... the Steelers game was one of them. ***** happens.

[The Wiz]

35 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The snaps were poor on field goals that game. On the first miss, Bojo had to pull it down and spin. On the third miss, wobbled out and Bojo had to get it down just in time.

 

It wasn’t Bojo’s fault. People just rushed to judgment.

 

 

You made no mention of the % that you spoke of and provided screenshots when I asked for a link. 

 

Did you misunderstand something?

Edited November 6, 2021 by The Wiz

[DrDawkinstein]

6 hours ago, StHustle said:

Now if he can only get his punting together...

 

6 hours ago, Einstein said:

Haack is terrible at punting. Glad he can hold a ball though.

 

I'd rather have the better holder than the better punter.

 

Bass FGs are crucial, and god forbid our Super Bowl comes down to a last second FG again. I'd rather make the FGs, and put more pressure on our D if/when he shanks a punt.

 

[Einstein]

30 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

You made no mention of the % that you spoke of and provided screenshots when I asked for a link. 

 

Did you misunderstand something?

 

The percentage is the % of punts downed inside the 20. You mentioned that he punted less and therefore that means he will have less. Percentage makes up for that.

 

As for a link, I screenshotted the articles hours ago. I’m sure you can easily google them if you’d like. 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

I'd rather have the better holder than the better punter.

 

Bass FGs are crucial, and god forbid our Super Bowl comes down to a last second FG again. I'd rather make the FGs, and put more pressure on our D if/when he shanks a punt.

 

 

I don’t actually think Bojo was terrible at holding. I think it was a lot of nonsense that drove that idea. That’s not to say that Bojo never messed up. Just that it was overblown.

 

This Tweet is how I felt at the time…

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Einstein

[4BillsintheBurgh]

37 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Belichick covered this at length recently in a press conference. Position players have to spend time in practice with their position groups. So they wouldn't get enough practice holding. 

 

And then there's injuries... Could you imagine not being able to attempt a game tying fg bc the #6 wr got knocked out of the game on a kick return?

 

 

Pittsburgh just had to play without their kicker for a half. They just end up managing the game to not count on the kicking game and won it, it's not the end of the world. And I thought belicheck was specifically addressing the backup qb as the player holding since that was the majority of the players who did it back then. I think it makes for an interesting fake scenario if you have jones or even Mckenzie holding because if they take off with the ball they would be tough to catch before turning upfield. The kick block team would have to account for that and either not rush that side or keep their safety player shaded to cover the holder taking off.

[Rockinon]

12 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I can’t seem to find hang time stats anywhere. Where are you finding them?

 

As for the excuse that him not punting a lot is why he isn’t getting many punts inside the 20 - Consider this: He is T-25th for the % of punts inside the 20. So even accounting for him punting less, he’s still bad.

 

.

Um, in the twitter post up above.

[Rockinon]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

The percentage is the % of punts downed inside the 20. You mentioned that he punted less and therefore that means he will have less. Percentage makes up for that.

 

As for a link, I screenshotted the articles hours ago. I’m sure you can easily google them if you’d like. 

 

 

 

 

I don’t actually think Bojo was terrible at holding. I think it was a lot of nonsense that drove that idea. That’s not to say that Bojo never messed up. Just that it was overblown.

 

This Tweet is how I felt at the time…

 

 

There were multiple instances where the laces were facing the kicker last year. Even if you want to put that on the snapper, it's still up to the holder to handle it and get those laces facing the goal instead of the kicker.

[benderbender]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

I don’t actually think Bojo was terrible at holding. I think it was a lot of nonsense that drove that idea. That’s not to say that Bojo never messed up. Just that it was overblown.

True. He wasn't terrible. However, he wasn't superlative either. If we're going to choose between booming punts and good holds, I'd choose the better holding to ensure the points. There really needs to be a shank stat for punters. I feel both have the same amount. Until Haack busts out one of those fakes we were told he was so good at, I'm still going to feel that we should have kept Bojo if only because he was our eccentric weirdo we stole from the Pats fair and square.  

2 hours ago, Rockinon said:

There were multiple instances where the laces were facing the kicker last year. Even if you want to put that on the snapper, it's still up to the holder to handle it and get those laces facing the goal instead of the kicker.

The local paper put the blame for the Crosby misses on the "team" when it happened, but since they've made a change at long snapper, they've shifted the blame to be totally on the previous long snapper. Seems to be towing the party line. 

[Doc]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

I don’t actually think Bojo was terrible at holding. I think it was a lot of nonsense that drove that idea. That’s not to say that Bojo never messed up. Just that it was overblown.

 

This Tweet is how I felt at the time…

 

 

It wasn't.  Jay Feely analyzed Bass' misses and blamed them on the orientation of the football, which isn't on Bass.  Whether it was on Ferguson or Bojo, Feely didn't say outright.  And Bass is proving to be one of the best kickers in the NFL. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

17 hours ago, Herc11 said:

Wonder why they never tried the backup QB as a holder with Bojo. Id rather still have Bojo if he didn't have to be the placeholder too.

 

17 hours ago, msw2112 said:

You have to pick your poison.  Haack is a better placeholder on FGs and PATs, but he clearly doesn't have the blig leg to flip field position that Bojo has.  In a couple Green Bay games I have seen, Bojo has launched some huge kicks, but there have also been compaints by PK Mason Crosby about his poor holds.

 

17 hours ago, TBBills said:

Awesome... He can do the easy part of his job. Like it's hard to do.

 

 

Now if only he can do the part that matters most.

 

15 hours ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

It makes more sense to me to try someone like Taiwan jones instead. A better athlete and he can probably get enough reps in to handle it. Plus gives you a lot of fake punt options. 

 

14 hours ago, Mango said:

We keep a lot of guys for ST who are waaay down in the depth chart. Does Taiwan Jones block for field goals? He is like RB7, if he’s not blocking that feels like a very teachable skill. 

 

13 hours ago, klos63 said:

I still don't understand the change in punters and giving Haack a 3 year deal on top of it. Bojo often flipped the field, Haack cannot do that.

 

IMO a big reason Bojo isn't here this year is because of the bad holds, that and from what was written, he wanted more money than felt he was worth and didn't want to sign a longer term deal.  While a punters contract pales in comparison to say Josh Allen or even say Hughes or Morse, in a year with a very tight cap, could see where the Bills wanted a longer term contract and from what was written Bojo, wasn't on the same page.

 

He also remained unsigned for quite awhile, then was traded at the end of camp, so apparently most NFL personal departments don't value him nearly as high as many of the posters here do.

 

None of us were at practice either, maybe the coaching staff felt Bojo just didn't seem to be all that interested in improving his holding skills?

 

As to why T Jones or backup QB don't hold, 30 years ago was easy to do when teams practiced till the coach said they were done.  Now with such limited time available, don't want to keep the backup QB away from offensive snaps.  Back then many teams carried 3 QB's on active roster even.  Same thing with Jones, likely be limited time left to practice as gunner is doing holding.

 

IMO with this offense, even not quite as high scoring as last year, made field goals are more important than maybe an even and extra 10 yard average on punts.  I'd even say in a poor offense missed field goals hurt more than bad punts and are more deflating for team.

 

As for flipping the field, last year Bass flipped the field alot too, on missed field goals.  Unless you're punting from your own end zone, missed field goals flip the field more than punting 10 yards less do.

 

Having said all that I do think there's a good chance the Bills use a 5th or 6th rounder on a punter next year.  Haack cap hit is around $700k to cut him, next year with more cap space is doable.  Give the rookie all training camp to show he can hold just as well and punt better and he becomes the 2022 version of Bass. 

 

Of course by late Sept there will be 4 or 5 threads here about needing to cut the rookie as he's terrible.  All someone needs to do is go back to last year and find one of the "Cut Bass" threads and change the name to the new rookie, will be easy to do!

 

[klos63]

10 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO a big reason Bojo isn't here this year is because of the bad holds, that and from what was written, he wanted more money than felt he was worth and didn't want to sign a longer term deal.  While a punters contract pales in comparison to say Josh Allen or even say Hughes or Morse, in a year with a very tight cap, could see where the Bills wanted a longer term contract and from what was written Bojo, wasn't on the same page.

 

He also remained unsigned for quite awhile, then was traded at the end of camp, so apparently most NFL personal departments don't value him nearly as high as many of the posters here do.

 

None of us were at practice either, maybe the coaching staff felt Bojo just didn't seem to be all that interested in improving his holding skills?

 

As to why T Jones or backup QB don't hold, 30 years ago was easy to do when teams practiced till the coach said they were done.  Now with such limited time available, don't want to keep the backup QB away from offensive snaps.  Back then many teams carried 3 QB's on active roster even.  Same thing with Jones, likely be limited time left to practice as gunner is doing holding.

 

IMO with this offense, even not quite as high scoring as last year, made field goals are more important than maybe an even and extra 10 yard average on punts.  I'd even say in a poor offense missed field goals hurt more than bad punts and are more deflating for team.

 

As for flipping the field, last year Bass flipped the field alot too, on missed field goals.  Unless you're punting from your own end zone, missed field goals flip the field more than punting 10 yards less do.

 

Having said all that I do think there's a good chance the Bills use a 5th or 6th rounder on a punter next year.  Haack cap hit is around $700k to cut him, next year with more cap space is doable.  Give the rookie all training camp to show he can hold just as well and punt better and he becomes the 2022 version of Bass. 

 

Of course by late Sept there will be 4 or 5 threads here about needing to cut the rookie as he's terrible.  All someone needs to do is go back to last year and find one of the "Cut Bass" threads and change the name to the new rookie, will be easy to do!

 

I just woke up so maybe I'm missing something, how do missed FG's flip the field, in a good way?

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, klos63 said:

I just woke up so maybe I'm missing something, how do missed FG's flip the field, in a good way?

 

They don't.  Bad holds leading to missed FGs flip the field the wrong way.  So eliminating bad holds/holders is what you want to do.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Doc

[BigAl2526]

You'd think it might be possible to have one player who was good at holding for a place kicker and punting.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

You'd think it might be possible to have one player who was good at holding for a place kicker and punting.

 

Let's hope they find one next off-season.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

I just woke up so maybe I'm missing something, how do missed FG's flip the field, in a good way?

 

I didn't say a good way.  That was my point.

 

A couple posters were concerned with Haack not flipping the field.  We were having the same net result last year, short field for team taking possession on missed field goals.

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

It wasn't.  Jay Feely analyzed Bass' misses and blamed them on the orientation of the football, which isn't on Bass.  Whether it was on Ferguson or Bojo, Feely didn't say outright.  And Bass is proving to be one of the best kickers in the NFL. 

 

Feely actually said that Bass still should have made the kicks, but Bass didn’t help. The Feely video and tweet are still on Twitter.

 

As I said in the post you quoted, Bojo did mess up a few holds. I’m simply saying it’s not as big of a deal as people made it out to be. We lost 0 games because of it.

 

2 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

IMO a big reason Bojo isn't here this year is because of the bad holds…

 

 

I don’t think it had anything to do with holds, because if my memory is serving me correctly, the Bills tried to re-sign him.

 

Beane made a cryptic comment about how we want people who want to be here.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Einstein

[Einstein]

5 hours ago, Rockinon said:

There were multiple instances where the laces were facing the kicker last year. Even if you want to put that on the snapper, it's still up to the holder to handle it and get those laces facing the goal instead of the kicker.

 

Highlighted portion of the post you quoted.

 

[BringBackFlutie]

20 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Is this the first ever shoutout to a holder?

 

I, for one, am happy that we're back in our comfort zone of deliberating the release of our last punter.  Things were touch and go for a while there.

[Beerball]

20 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

Watching the Tyler Bass highlights on the Bills website and noticed how well and quickly he is able to hold the ball for Bass.  Bojo was an absolute trainwreck, and Haack deserves credit for getting the placement correctly and real quick.  Not all the snaps were perfect either.

 

 

His gross avg ranks 28th.

Pinned inside the 20 ranks 28th (tie).

 

Rather than highlighting Haack, should you be asking why McBeane can't find a decent holder who can also rank in the top half of the league in punting?

[klos63]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

They don't.  Bad holds leading to missed FGs flip the field the wrong way.  So eliminating bad holds/holders is what you want to do.

got it, Bass didn't miss too much after after week 3 last season. So wasn't really an issue.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, klos63 said:

got it, Bass didn't miss too much after after week 3 last season. So wasn't really an issue.

 

Didnt miss a field goal in 9 of his last 10 games.

 

[klos63]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I didn't say a good way.  That was my point.

 

A couple posters were concerned with Haack not flipping the field.  We were having the same net result last year, short field for team taking possession on missed field goals.

I get it now. I see your point, but it's not really flipping the field and it's not really fair to blame Bojorquez for Bass's misses. 

[BassToMouth]

21 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

Watching the Tyler Bass highlights on the Bills website and noticed how well and quickly he is able to hold the ball for Bass.  Bojo was an absolute trainwreck, and Haack deserves credit for getting the placement correctly and real quick.  Not all the snaps were perfect either.

 

 

Jeez we could’ve beaten the Texans 70-0.

 

One thing I haven’t seen discussed with regard to Bass is his technique. Specifically how he spins the football. I was a high-level golfer in college and a little professionally, and ball spin is the name of the game. Absolutely critical. 
 

There are many different ways to create different spins with a golf ball, and every ball in every sport obviously has it’s own spins. In pro golf though, there was a pretty large shift among the world’s top players to either develop or keep fade spin (left to right for right-handed players and opposite for left-handed). The fairways are rock hard usually on the PGA Tour, usually more narrow particularly for major championships, and actually designed to promote one spin over the other as far as the ideal approach to that hole based on the undulation and shape of the fairway. 
 

The draw, right to left spin and flight shape for a right-handed player was long considered the way to go. A high draw was even better. Young players were usually taught how to swing with this in mind. A golf ball that’s hit with a draw will have more overspin when it lands, so a long draw hitter would be longer than a long fade hitter. A fade has much less overspin. Any ping pong players or tennis players here? A lot of what I’m referring to is specifically driving the golf ball off the tee. Gets a bit different with approach shots. 
 

I’m talking about driving because it’s most similar to field goal kicking if you were to compare the two sports. Most of you have probably noticed Bass stands a bit more directly behind the ball than the typical NFL kicker who takes a step or two to the side after their couple steps directly back. This angle is similar to trying to hit a golf shot with a draw, more from the inside as they say. Promotes the right to left spin, which like I said, tends to produce more distance. 
 

So why does Bass buck the traditional draw spin approach? Same reason Dustin Johnson and many others on the PGA Tour do, they already have more than enough distance. The fade is more controllable, lands softer (golf), and is far more repeatable in regard to producing a much less wide spread. So a miss with a fade is almost always less severe than a miss with a draw. What Bass does is what in the golf world you’d call a slight push fade. That’s why his flight path tends to be dead straight or starting straight with a slight move to the right. Super repeatable. I’ve seen him hit a few pull fades but the push is his move. He has, however, also shown the ability to use different angles with his foot and leg swing to produce different spins including a draw when needed! This is very high level stuff, and means he has the ability to create the ideal flight path depending on wind, moisture, temperature etc. 

 

Bass is the Dustin Johnson of NFL kicking. We’ve all seen that he has the leg power to make a 70 yard fg. So he has the luxury of hitting a fade instead of a draw. What you have is one of the strongest legs in league history coupled with a technique designed for more control and accuracy and consistency. 
 

Sorry for my ramble here, but I think Bass has a legitimate shot to go down as the best kicker in league history for all these technical reasons, and also of course he has a great head on his shoulders and clear mental toughness. His power push fade might one day cause the same shift in approach with young prospects that players like Dustin Johnson did for the PGA Tour. 
 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by BassToMouth

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 minutes ago, klos63 said:

I get it now. I see your point, but it's not really flipping the field and it's not really fair to blame Bojorquez for Bass's misses. 

 

If the holds weren't laces out, then Bojorquez certainly shares some of the blame.

 

If it was missed field goal from say the 35, that gives the other team  the ball around the 43, whereas if made and kickoff, many go for TB which gives the team the ball on the 25.  If miss was beyond 40 or so, team gets the ball on the other side of the 50.  Excluding the blocked kick and maybe the one shanked last week I haven't seen any other punts from Haack that likely netted 20 + yards less than what Bojorquez  could have done.  Seemed like he had a mindset of wanting to boom his kicks, including quite a few into the end zone for TB.  That also may have been what did him in, coaches told him to take something off to pin them deep, but he'd boom it away.

[Dan Darragh]

Bring back Cory Carter

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

48 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I don’t think it had anything to do with holds, because if my memory is serving me correctly, the Bills tried to re-sign him.

 

Beane made a cryptic comment about how we want people who want to be here.

 

Do recall hearing that and also the comment about being here.  That goes to my point about Bojorquez not wanting to sign a long term deal or maybe was meant as some comment about not listening to coaches enough, who knows.  And again could have been they wanted to re-sign him, but for less money likely due to the Bills not valuing him as much as he valued himself

 

Seems every team claims to want to re-sign every player right until they sign with someone else, just as they have no interest in any other players until they sign them.  So I tend to take those comments with a grain of salt.

[billsfan89]

I was good with the team signing Haack as a punter factoring in his holding being much improved over Bojo. But Haack's punting in Miami while not elite was above average. If he was a great holder and an above-average punter I would take that over a great punter like Bojo who is a bad holder. Right now Haack's punting ranks in the mid to late 20's not good at all hopefully he rebounds the rest of the season.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

Didnt miss a field goal in 9 of his last 10 games.

 

And the one he missed was a 61-yarder.

 

[StHustle]

20 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

I'd rather have the better holder than the better punter.

 

Bass FGs are crucial, and god forbid our Super Bowl comes down to a last second FG again. I'd rather make the FGs, and put more pressure on our D if/when he shanks a punt.

 

 

I do agree. With how strong our defense is we can afford a shanked punt over a mishandled hold on a crucial field goal.

[Freddie's Dead]

On 11/5/2021 at 7:31 PM, Einstein said:

 

Haack is:

 

27th in average punt

T-27th in punts landing inside the 20

28th in net punting average 

31st in fair catches 

 

He is terrible in every punting statistic that I can find.

 

As for last year…

 

 

 

Bodork also led the league in unilateral fake field goals, so he had that going for him....

[Mike in Horseheads]

Shoutout to Reid Ferguson who snaps the ball the Haack hold so Bass can kick .  I wonder if he's related to to the great Turd Ferguson

[Motorin']

Haak must have read this thread, then decided to hit a 59 yard punt.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

On 11/5/2021 at 4:35 PM, Back2Buff said:

Watching the Tyler Bass highlights on the Bills website and noticed how well and quickly he is able to hold the ball for Bass.  Bojo was an absolute trainwreck, and Haack deserves credit for getting the placement correctly and real quick.  Not all the snaps were perfect either.

 

 

 

Not this again...

 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Not this again...

 

 

Yes, this again. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

 

Yes, this again. 

 

Repetition doesn't make it less false.

[msw2112]

I watched just a few minutes of the GB-KC game yesterday.  I saw a FG attempt that Mason Crosby missed.  I noticed, and the TV commentator pointed out, that the ball was not spun properly, as the laces were to the side, not to the front.  Crosby's face right after the missed kick showed that he was pissed off and it appeared that he was pissed off at someone other than himself.  So, another example of a poor hold from Bojo.  To be fair, they also said at another point in the broadcast that the Packers had just signed a new long snapper and that he and Bojo had been working on things, so there is another variable in there that may not be Bojo's fault.

 

For what it's worth, I liked Bojo and hoped the Bills would re-sign him.  I was glad to see Haack with a nice long kick yesterday, but, unforutnatley, the punter and FG holder were the least of the Bills' worries.  Can Bojo or Haack play guard?

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I watched just a few minutes of the GB-KC game yesterday.  I saw a FG attempt that Mason Crosby missed.  I noticed, and the TV commentator pointed out, that the ball was not spun properly, as the laces were to the side, not to the front.  Crosby's face right after the missed kick showed that he was pissed off and it appeared that he was pissed off at someone other than himself.  So, another example of a poor hold from Bojo.  To be fair, they also said at another point in the broadcast that the Packers had just signed a new long snapper and that he and Bojo had been working on things, so there is another variable in there that may not be Bojo's fault.

 

For what it's worth, I liked Bojo and hoped the Bills would re-sign him.  I was glad to see Haack with a nice long kick yesterday, but, unforutnatley, the punter and FG holder were the least of the Bills' worries.  Can Bojo or Haack play guard?

 

Wish the Bills could have given Haak tried 5-6 attempts at holding fg's yesterday.